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Old 01-06-2010, 17:45   #41
fredj338
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I also doubt very much that the teacher would call the student a "dumb-ass" or "stupid" for asking if he or she could have the answers to the test. Lazy, yes, but a Dumb-ass NO.
It's pretty rare I see anyone here or on any other forum, call someone a "Dumbass" or "stupid" for asking a legit question. It really is a fast track world & it seems if you are much younger than 40, everyone wants it right now. That's what comes across to me on many threads regarding reloading. "I don't have a manual, I just go to the powder site", that sort of attitude is short cutting the learning process. Much like trying to take a test w/o reading the mat'l. the test will be on. Yeah, you might get by but did you learn anything?
Too many newbs are not even doing the basic reading & then buy gear & come onto the sites & ask how do I do this or that & all they have to do is read the book. After you do that bare minimum, then come onto the forums sites & ask for clarifications & ideas. I don't mind repeating myself, but people are getting so lazy they won't even try to use the search features! That kind of attitude is what I would bet bothers many experienced reloaders. Really, "what size primer does the 40s&w use", just tells me you have done zero, nothing, nada in the way of learning your new hobby.
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Old 01-06-2010, 17:48   #42
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Originally Posted by shotgunred View Post
It is what it is. Go over to enos site. On the reloading section the most often question is what is your favorite pet load.
Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:01   #43
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Really, "what size primer does the 40s&w use", just tells me you have done zero, nothing, nadd in the way of pursuing your new hobby.
Thank you Fred. Sort of like how many times have we seen the question: "What's the difference between a regular primer and a magnum primer?" How many newbs here, after reading that SP and SR where being interchanged, suggested to someone else that LP and LR could also be interchanged? (BTW, they cannot, they have different dimensions).

Like Fred, I'm more than willing to help out a newb; but they have to demonstrate that they've done at least a little bit of work. If they aren't willing to put anything into the hobby, then why should I put any effort into them. My hope when I help someone is that they will develop skills so that they can in turn help others. If I sense that that they are in it for themselves only, then they are on their own.
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:04   #44
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Originally Posted by dudel View Post
Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don
Uhm, seriously, NO. They are with out a doubt THE most helpful generous group of people I have ever meet. They will train you and teach you how to beat them. Thats been my experiance.
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:09   #45
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Originally Posted by dudel View Post
Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don
Yes...I would and have given out my favorite competition loads. Likewise I know very high level shooters and they readily do the same plus offer a LOT more advice to help others coming into the sport. I only have experience competing in USPSA. But the vast majority of the members that I've met and shot with have been great folks and very helpful.

Sure, there are the exceptions. And in either case, helping others or not helping others is not the real issue. If you don't want to help, fine...don't. If you do want help, great...help. But when someone goes out of their way to be rude to someone asking for help (and I certainly don't mean you...just speaking in general terms), I just don't get it. If you don't want to help, just ignore the post.
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:13   #46
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RATS... C4W beat me to it. Actually I've found that shooters tend to be very generous when it comes to competition, even going so far as to lend each other equipment. The only other sport I've been involved in where competitors are as generous is Rodeo. I let other guys, as other guys have let me use, ropes, spurs, bridles and even horses.

I used to be in a bowling league where the people were very helpful but I didn't do it for long... it occurred to me that sex would be a better hobby... the balls are lighter and you don't have to change your shoes.

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Old 01-06-2010, 18:16   #47
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
It's pretty rare I see anyone here or on any other forum, call someone a "Dumbass" or "stupid" for asking a legit question. It really is a fast track world & if oyu are much younger than 40, everyone wants it right now. That's what comes across to me on amny threads regarding reloading. "I don't have a manual, I just go to the pwoder site", that sort of attitude is short cutting the learning process. Much like trying to take a test w/o reading the mat'l. the test will be on. Yeah, you might get by but did you learn anything?
Too many newbs are not even doing the basic reading & buy gear then come onto the sites & ask how do I do this or that & all they have to do is read the book. After you do that bare minimum, then come onto the forums sites & ask for clarifications & ideas. I don't mind repeating myself, but people are getting so lazy they won't even try to use the search features! That kind of attitude is what I would bet bothers many experienced reloaders. Really, "what size primer does the 40s&w use", just tells me you have done zero, nothing, nadd in the way of pursuing your new hobby.
I agree, and when I respond to these types of questions I always try and emphasize the need to read the manuals first, after that Read it again, then ask questions. Many times my written words come across harder than I intended. Sometimes not hard enough. So, what do we do? We can ignore the post, help out with some solid helpful advice, or we can be rude/mean and discouraging to our new members to the reloading world. I choose to ignore or be helpful.
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Old 01-06-2010, 18:48   #48
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Originally Posted by dudel View Post
Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don
Well, on this one I have to differ. I do recognize the need for new reloaders to digest the basics rather than, just ask for directions as so many seem to do nowadays. I guess that's why I have a shelf of manuals dating back 4 decades and still accumulating. It's fairly easy to use published information, pick your components and crank out perfectly fine general purpose rounds. Over time, you can put forth the effort and develop whatever type of load that floats your boat without any input from anyone...I did it for a lot of years. That said, I see no problem sharing load information especially, data intended for a specific purpose. Although I've been at this a long time, several of the most accurate loads I have were actually developed by someone else.

Serious competitors are some of the most generous and helpful people you could hope for. Most of them willingly share not only their load data but helpful tips on technique, practice, efficiency and otherwise. When someone has a problem with a gun, load or anything shooting related these guys are first in line to offer their knowledge and assistance. Some (ala, Rob Leatham) even has helpful websites where specific questions are submitted and answered. The overwhelming majority of competitive shooters have a love of the sport and a genuine desire to do whatever possible to attract new shooters and help make the experience enjoyable. On a side note, we all owe them a great deal of gratitude for the advances their experimentation has led to in both firearms and reloading.

Load data is also shared by other notables other than competitors. The BullseyeL forum has a web page where noted Bullseye shooters list their best bullet/load combinations. Several custom gun & barrel makers (i.e., Wilson Combat) provide specific data for extracting the most from their products. Even military marksmanship team load data is available. Some of the accuracy loads printed is Shooting Sports USA have proved outstanding as have many other publications.

My point is, shared data is (or, should be) an adjunct to "the manuals"...not, a replacement. Perhaps equally as important for new reloaders to develop in addition to their loading skills is, the ability to discern hot air and hyperbole from a reasoned response. It IS the internet and the person sitting at the other keyboard may be a 12 year old with an imagination.
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Old 01-06-2010, 19:10   #49
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An honest question I have-----why does a reloading section exist here if not to share and discuss information? For some of you I would ask--What do you say is a "legitimate" use of the reloading forum? I still believe it is to share info----but trust me, any information I get from anyone, internet or otherwise, is going to be checked and double checked in one of my own manuals. I value my guns---they cost me too much and I can't afford to replace them. I value the health and safety of my friends and my own body too much to risk everyone being injured by flying shrapnel and gun parts. I don't mean necessarily we should all be giving specific loads right down to the fine print and everyone taking them at face value----but to throw out good/bad combinations of powder, bullets, etc....you have found seems to me to be the essence of what this forum is about.
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Old 01-06-2010, 19:25   #50
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Originally Posted by dudel View Post
Think about it for a bit. If you were a competive shooter would you give out your very best load or would you change it just a bit......

Competition is tough out there. Difference between first and second is not always that great.

Don
That part has never bothered me. I would & have even give a guy a gun & my ammo to shoot against me if his went to crap on him. It's always going to be the shooter, not the gear.
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Last edited by fredj338; 01-06-2010 at 19:27..
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Old 01-06-2010, 19:49   #51
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An honest question I have-----why does a reloading section exist here if not to share and discuss information? For some of you I would ask--What do you say is a "legitimate" use of the reloading forum? I still believe it is to share info----
I couldn't agree more. The way I look at it is when someone asks "how many grains of Titegroup do I use with a 124 grain bullet in 9mm"? Wouldn't it be better to teach them how to work up a load and give them the skills to be able to do that on their own in the future rather than just tell them 4.2 grains and have them be lost if that doesn't work.
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Old 01-06-2010, 19:51   #52
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Im all for helping anyone at anytime and often need help myself or just want to double check things so i never have a problem with any question.
As far as giving someone a specific load online, im not in favor of people not looking at loadbooks or going to a manufacturers website. Look at a loadbook first, then ask, then re-check what you have been told. Youre only asking for trouble if you dont. One reason i dont approve of giving specific loads is if i give or someone gives a load, how do i know the guy was 100% when he gave it to me ? Its always possible someone rushed and got a powder mixed up or read it wrong and who will suffer ? Then you got guys who instead of saying " I dont know", they will post something they THINK is right.
Brother, i aint never getting caught in that trap. Those are some reasons i dont approve of giving loads out, you can argue till the cows come home but theres just too much that can go wrong. Youre always better off if youre online and need a specific powder load, go to the mfg,s website or if youre that desperate check and recheck it as many places as you can.
And thats that !
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Old 01-06-2010, 20:07   #53
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It's fairly easy to use published information, pick your components and crank out perfectly fine general purpose rounds. Over time, you can put forth the effort and develop whatever type of load that floats your boat without any input from anyone.
Bullseye
Personally I think the more valuable information gleaned from sites has been other than numerical data.
To often lateley it is more like
Quote:
Got my press, dies and pills comin. Man you guys are right, not much on the shelves. Bought a pound off Bullseye, thats all they had. I hate those #$%^%$ primers. crushed half cramin them babies in. Some guy online says he shoots up a lot but has no recipe for Bullseye. Oh I forgot I am going to relode 308. Anyone got any loads they would like to share. I cant seem to find any data. Oh and I will be using PP pills from Wideners.
Thanks

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Old 01-06-2010, 20:32   #54
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Bullseye
Personally I think the more valuable information gleaned from sites has been other than numerical data.
To often lateley it is more like
Actually, I think the post goes more like this " I got my LNL AP yesterday. What else do I need?"

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Old 01-06-2010, 20:32   #55
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How many different powders are there? Has anyone tried them all? The manuals don't tell you things like how clean a powder burns in a given load range, how much smoke it makes, what the recoil will be like, the volume of a charge, how well it meters in your powder system, whether a certain charge is likely to cycle a given semi-auto, etc.

As a relative noob to reloading, I was glad I was able to find info like the above on a couple of different powders suitable for the rounds I expect to reload. It helped me choose Universal Clays (mostly because it was reputed to be clean burning and its density is such that a 9mm double charge won't fit in a 9mm case) as a good/safe powder to start off with for 9mm.
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Old 01-06-2010, 20:40   #56
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How many different powders are there? Has anyone tried them all? The manuals don't tell you things like how clean a powder burns in a given load range, how much smoke it makes, what the recoil will be like, the volume of a charge, how well it meters in your powder system, whether a certain charge is likely to cycle a given semi-auto, etc.
Nor can they. Many load manuals use a universal reciever to get pressure data; not actual guns. A few manuals will indicate which gun (if a universal reciever was not used), but it's generally only done for a few select calibers.

How clean it burns not only depends on the powder, but also the projectile. Using a lubed lead projectile or a FMJ? What primer are you using, how deep are you seating the bullet etc? What temp are you shooting at? Depending on how full the case is, the angle of the bullet can have an impact. All those factors will affect how completely the powder burns and how much smoke you get.

Recoil is going to be a function of the gun more than the round. A heavier gun will have less felt recoil than a lighter one.

Whether it cycles your semi-auto is also more a function of the gun rather than the round (mass of the slide, strength of the spring, new or broken in, etc, etc, etc).

That's why it's not covered in the load manual. It doesn't belong in the load manual.

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Old 01-07-2010, 00:56   #57
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How clean it burns not only depends on the powder, but also the projectile. Using a lubed lead projectile or a FMJ? What primer are you using, how deep are you seating the bullet etc? What temp are you shooting at? Depending on how full the case is, the angle of the bullet can have an impact. All those factors will affect how completely the powder burns and how much smoke you get.
Not to mention that a powders ability to comletely combust or burn "clean" is often a function of the charge wt./pressure. It's why Unique gets a bad rap as "dirty", it does not run well at IDPA mousefart levels.Powders like H110 are not supposed to be loaded down more thna 3%.
Up until a few years ago, powder manuals didn't even have OAL or they would have SAAMI spec max OAL (almost useless). Once you get into loading high pressure pistol rounds, you realize quickly that OAL matters a lot. Which means bullet shape matters (hear that Mr. Lee).
Quote:
How many different powders are there? Has anyone tried them all? The manuals don't tell you things like how clean a powder burns in a given load range, how much smoke it makes, what the recoil will be like, the volume of a charge, how well it meters in your powder system, whether a certain charge is likely to cycle a given semi-auto, etc.
Questions like that are good questions about reloading. Asking what primer size to use in the 9mm is just frickin lazy. That's when someone needs to just say "read the manual". If you keep enabling lazy, shoddy practices, the person will not get it thorugh their little pea brain that this is not baking a cake, it's making a mini bomb & should be approached w/ the seriousness of that in mind. TOugh love baby, for all of you that have never raised children.
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Old 01-07-2010, 15:59   #58
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Technically there is no need for a reloading forum at all. There's all kinds of data manuals available with how-to's provided.
Yeah, that's true, but again, some of us don't have the money needed nor the time to sort through literally hundreds of items in print. The internet is a much more efficiant source to sort/search/sift through the information.

Bottom line:

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SHARE YOUR INFO THEN DON'T!!!

But don't sit around here and ***** about everyone else that does. If you don't like the way the GTR forum is going you can do what Freak did.
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Old 01-07-2010, 17:53   #59
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You took part of my post to quote that was not meant to be a statement of the usefullness of a reloading forum. If you read or quote all my post you will notice that I said I appreciate having a reloading forum for the new loaders as well as the experienced. I share what data I have or have access to and check other posted data to compare to mine. Plus it's nice to have a place to share our addictive hobby with others that are "hooked" too. I simply meant what would our forum be if not to post data and ask any question whether technical or not. Some of us believe it or not were reloading before there was an internet, or home computers and we didn't have a reloading forum. It's nice today that all this info, learning and sharing is available.

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Old 01-07-2010, 18:03   #60
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Actually, I think the post goes more like this " I got my LNL AP yesterday. What else do I need?"

Don
Obviously, a can of Blue spray paint.

The inverse is also true.

Quote:
" I got my 650 yesterday. What else do I need?"
A can of Red spray paint.

Notice it does not work like this.....

Quote:
" I got my 1050Super yesterday. What else do I need?"
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