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Old 01-08-2010, 21:11   #1
CodyBoy
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Scenario: Who's Who?

Ok, this BG was robbing the bank inside WM and started shooting people.

You are at the checkout right in front of the bank.

You realize whats going on, make a quick accessment of your surroundings, you see no other BG's to your knowledge.

You have already taken cover behind the end of the checkout stand.

You draw, shoot and hit twice. He goes down but not dead. (dang 9mm)

You then call 911, and there probably are others by now that have already called and possibly the bank alarm has already sent for the police.

You are certain there are no other BG's.

Your still on the phone with 911 and trying to calm down while trying to keep everyone around you from histeria.

You're still keeping an eye on the BG and have already secured his weapon and along with store manager (probably assistant manager)(manager crapped pants and ran) are trying to keep people away. It appears secure so you holster your weapon.

You're watching the front door for the police to arrive.

You see a man in plain clothes coming in with a weapon drawn.........
You see no badge and he's not yelling POLICE! (may not want to announce his arrival just yet, so he can possibly get an upperhand and access the situation)

He could be police or could be the guys buddy that was waiting in the getaway car.


Whats your next move?
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Old 01-08-2010, 22:09   #2
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Get cover and yell, "Police, Stop!!!" several times using your best big boy voice.

If the guy doesn't identify himself as a cop and points his weapon in your direction, you would be justified in shooting him (*check your local laws).

I'll take my chances with an impersonating a LEO charge if it means I might not get shot by the getaway driver.
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Old 01-08-2010, 22:23   #3
Dexters
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Originally Posted by CodyBoy View Post

Your still on the phone with 911 and trying to calm down while trying to keep everyone around you from histeria.
Interesting scenario. You are still on the phone with 911 - you could pass along what you see to the 911 operator and ask them what they suggest.
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Old 01-09-2010, 05:51   #4
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If you're on the phone with the 911 operator, you should ask if they have any officers on scene. Even with a multi-department response, the 911 operator should have the information if anyone from any responding department had signaled that they were on scene.

But that's just my guess.
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:39   #5
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Originally Posted by CodyBoy View Post
You're still keeping an eye on the BG and have already secured his weapon and along with store manager (probably assistant manager)(manager crapped pants and ran) are trying to keep people away. It appears secure so you holster your weapon.
First, you ought not be breaking cover as described. People are going to keep away just fine on their own.
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Whats your next move?
Kick yourself repeatedly for breaking cover. Then say, "Aha! Now that I'm standing in the open, at the mercy of some guy with a gun who may be pissed that I killed his friend, or may think that I'm the robber....now I see why Sam didn't want me doing that ****."

So there's the tactics issue involved in your scenario (which is quite a good "what if", BTW.)

Now suppose that you did remain hunkered down, weapon not visible, doing your best impression of someone stuck in the "freeze" portion of fight/flight/freeze...how do you figure out who this guy is?

Simple: You watch what he does. You make use of your advantages, including that you can afford a narrow focus and the guy coming in has to evaluate the entire location. Time is more on your side, and you can use some of that time to observe (while he's still orienting, for you Boyd fans). Cops take control of scenes, get-away drivers get away, guys with CCW badges do something I'm not sure of, and sociopaths start looking for people to kill. You, behind your bullet sponge, get to respond accordingly.
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Old 01-09-2010, 14:21   #6
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To start until the BG made some sort of move towards me or when i felt in danger, i would have stayed behind the checkout stand. Not my money or my loved ones at risk, not my problem.
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Old 01-11-2010, 20:44   #7
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First, you ought not be breaking cover as described. People are going to keep away just fine on their own.

Kick yourself repeatedly for breaking cover. Then say, "Aha! Now that I'm standing in the open, at the mercy of some guy with a gun who may be pissed that I killed his friend, or may think that I'm the robber....now I see why Sam didn't want me doing that ****."

So there's the tactics issue involved in your scenario (which is quite a good "what if", BTW.)

Now suppose that you did remain hunkered down, weapon not visible, doing your best impression of someone stuck in the "freeze" portion of fight/flight/freeze...how do you figure out who this guy is?

Simple: You watch what he does. You make use of your advantages, including that you can afford a narrow focus and the guy coming in has to evaluate the entire location. Time is more on your side, and you can use some of that time to observe (while he's still orienting, for you Boyd fans). Cops take control of scenes, get-away drivers get away, guys with CCW badges do something I'm not sure of, and sociopaths start looking for people to kill. You, behind your bullet sponge, get to respond accordingly.
Samspade

I like your comments.

BG is down, no need to play "cop" and try and secure the scene.

Staying behind cover sounds like a good idea until the police have secured the area.

And waiting to see about this new Man With Gun is all about!


Excellent.

Thanks
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Old 01-11-2010, 20:45   #8
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To start until the BG made some sort of move towards me or when i felt in danger, i would have stayed behind the checkout stand. Not my money or my loved ones at risk, not my problem.


Uh , yea, thats real nice.
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Old 01-12-2010, 08:54   #9
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To start until the BG made some sort of move towards me or when i felt in danger, i would have stayed behind the checkout stand. Not my money or my loved ones at risk, not my problem.
The OP stated the BG was shooting other people. Who knows if he picks you next to shoot. I know here in FL, we have the right to use deadly force to stop a forceable felony (in this case homicide/murder of others) to ourselves, or others. If you were in a position to neutralize this threat, why not act? What if you had a loved one that was shot, and someone with the means stood by and did nothing?
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:42   #10
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The OP stated the BG was shooting other people. Who knows if he picks you next to shoot. I know here in FL, we have the right to use deadly force to stop a forceable felony (in this case homicide/murder of others) to ourselves, or others. If you were in a position to neutralize this threat, why not act? What if you had a loved one that was shot, and someone with the means stood by and did nothing?

Some people just don't "get it" . I agree with every word you said.

The BG could be killing a 1000 people and some that may be able to stop the madness will just standby until "they" are in danger of being shot.

I would hope someone who is able will step up to the plate if my family were being shot at and unable to defend themselves.
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Old 01-12-2010, 11:04   #11
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The OP stated the BG was shooting other people. Who knows if he picks you next to shoot. I know here in FL, we have the right to use deadly force to stop a forceable felony (in this case homicide/murder of others) to ourselves, or others. If you were in a position to neutralize this threat, why not act? What if you had a loved one that was shot, and someone with the means stood by and did nothing?
The basic problem with this sort of stuff is that we tend to make assumptions that always go in our favor. Depending on a number of factors there is probably just as much a chance that you will not neutralize the threat and that he will shoot others that would not have been shot if you hadn't intervened. What if you shot at the BG, missed, and he shot back at you, missed, and hit the kid standing behind you that otherwise would have gone home with nothing but an interesting story to tell? Seems like we never consider that ending.

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Old 01-12-2010, 11:20   #12
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The basic problem with this sort of stuff is that we tend to make assumptions that always go in our favor.
We are always the hero in our own movie.
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Old 01-12-2010, 11:42   #13
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The basic problem with this sort of stuff is that we tend to make assumptions that always go in our favor. Depending on a number of factors there is probably just as much a chance that you will not neutralize the threat and that he will shoot others that would not have been shot if you hadn't intervened. What if you shot at the BG, missed, and he shot back at you, missed, and hit the kid standing behind you that otherwise would have gone home with nothing but an interesting story to tell? Seems like we never consider that ending.
This is very true. I understand these scenarios always play out the way we think they would. I guess my point is, in a situation like this, I'd like to think i would help if I thought I could, as opposed to having a "not my problem other people I dont know are getting shot". Of course, I never want to be in that situation, and really dont know how it would go down until that day comes.
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Old 01-12-2010, 11:43   #14
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The basic problem with this sort of stuff is that we tend to make assumptions that always go in our favor. Depending on a number of factors there is probably just as much a chance that you will not neutralize the threat and that he will shoot others that would not have been shot if you hadn't intervened. What if you shot at the BG, missed, and he shot back at you, missed, and hit the kid standing behind you that otherwise would have gone home with nothing but an interesting story to tell? Seems like we never consider that ending.


Because:

If you do "nothing" the kid may have been shot anyhow.

If you do "something" the kid may "not" get shot.

I would rather "do" than "not do".

And no , I'm not talking about a "wild shot". I would not shoot if I believed I could not stop the threat.


DA guess your with 1sharpedge on this one.
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Old 01-12-2010, 11:50   #15
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I think we should all lock our guns up in the safe and throw the key away!

No one is capable of stopping a BG and may make things worse if we try.

Better yet, lets build a big, hot fire and melt all our "good guy" guns down and sell the left overs as scrap metal!

If you do not have relevant information to contribute then please, move on to another thread, or just move on in general.

Thanks

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Old 01-12-2010, 12:09   #16
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I would rather "do" than "not do".
Then go join the local PD. THe point is that when one selects "do" there is no guarantee that it will work out the way one's imagination is thinking it will, and that there is a down side to it. Assuming we have a robbery in progress, if you start shooting at the BG there is a decent chance that you will extend the shooting and increase the danger to others.
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And no , I'm not talking about a "wild shot". I would not shoot if I believed I could not stop the threat.
That is probably true of everyone. Again, the point is that what one believes is not necessarily the way it will work out. As I mention elsewhere, there are pretty good reasons that virtually every professional in this area recommends stay down and out of the way.
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DA guess your with 1sharpedge on this one.
Can't speak for him, but yes, I'm generally supportive of the "stay out of the way, take care of you and yours" position.
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If you do not have relevant information to contribute then please, move on to another thread, or just move on in general.
If you can't recognize relevant information when offered then please, move on to another thread, or just move on in general.

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Old 01-12-2010, 12:43   #17
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I think the safe thing to say, and I'm sure most can agree with, there are far too many circumstances then we could ever know by these "What If" threads. These events can unfold in front of you in a matter of seconds, and only you being there witnessing it, can then make a decision to help or not. I'd like to think any person who CCW's would intervene if they thought the the circumstances were in their favor to help. If the circumstances didnt appear favorible, then no, you shouldn't try to help and make things worse. Again, it all happens so fast, and you would need to react without being able to hit a pause button to step back and go through it with a 'fine tooth comb'.

Again, I hope I never find myself in this type of situation.
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:56   #18
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Then go join the local PD. THe point is that when one selects "do" there is no guarantee that it will work out the way one's imagination is thinking it will, and that there is a down side to it. Assuming we have a robbery in progress, if you start shooting at the BG there is a decent chance that you will extend the shooting and increase the danger to others.

Ah yes, let the police do it! I'm sure they are able to be at all places all the time! There is a cop in mine and everyone elses back pocket all the time.

Just pull him out and problem solved.

If that were true, then the libs are right! No one needs to carry a weapon.
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Old 01-12-2010, 13:25   #19
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Ah yes, let the police do it! I'm sure they are able to be at all places all the time!
Interestingly, I didn't suggest anything like that. The suggestion was that if YOU would rather "do" than "not do" that perhaps you should join the PD and actually "do". You might quickly find out that the real world usually doesn't conform to this hero mythology that many seem to develop. Equally interesting, of course, is all this empty rhetoric you keep tossing around that has no bearing on what anyone has said.

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Old 01-12-2010, 13:42   #20
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Then go join the local PD.

Your words not mine.


With your statement, the only way someone can "do" is to be a police officer.


If you are not a police officer then I guess you "cannot do".


Again, those were your words.


You have seen your neighbor outside a couple times and have noticed he is feeling down. So you ask about it.

He tells you there was a robbery at WM and his daughter was shot. The police later told him , there was a guy at WM that had a CCW but decided to not get involved and decided it was best to cower behind the candy at the end of the checkout stand.


Yea, he was talking about YOU but he doesn't know that.
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