[the swamp fox]

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer

What is "serious" use of a gun?

If someone buys a gun, and tests 500 rounds through it, then carries it, and practises 150 rounds a year thereafter, isn't that serious?

The "serious" use would be the carry for self-defense. After 10 years, the gun would have 2,000 rounds.

Or are you talking about participating in a lot of shooting games as being "serious" use?

I don't know if the Taurus will hold up to 2,000 rounds or 2,000,000. But either way, what defines serious use?

Self defense is indeed serious use.....not a bunch of goobs in Ralp Lauren shirts dinging paper and plates with the latest "my di$* is bigger than yours" brand. Just my HO.....


The Swamp Fox

[cigarlover]

HA-HA-HA

You poor ignorant slugs make me laugh. Stroll to a SA, Kimber, or Colt forum or any other mass produced custom 1911's. All have some guy with a new pistol that never made it to 1,000 rounds or even 3 without a malfunction. So I guess that makes all you guys A-Holes because you own a custom 1911 that couldn't pass a 1000 round test ? Any one can make a lemon. There is always the unlucky few that get a bad firearm from many a manufacturer. From HK to even our beloved Glock. Seen both fail during competitions by the way...

Now go run and tell that....

[the swamp fox]

[Good postquote=cigarlover;14626062]HA-HA-HA

You poor ignorant slugs make me laugh. Stroll to a SA, Kimber, or Colt forum or any other mass produced custom 1911's. All have some guy with a new pistol that never made it to 1,000 rounds or even 3 without a malfunction. So I guess that makes all you guys A-Holes because you own a custom 1911 that couldn't pass a 1000 round test ? Any one can make a lemon. There is always the unlucky few that get a bad firearm from many a manufacturer. From HK to even our beloved Glock. Seen both fail during competitions by the way...

Now go run and tell that....[/quote]

[faawrenchbndr]

Right in the junk,...... good shot 'swamp fox!

[bac1023]

Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr

Wow,......could this thread surpass the "cardboard box" thread?!

Its got a long ways to go.

[PlasticGuy]

Originally Posted by doolyd

I guess we saw the same video but have two different perspectives.

Someone said they counted 10 malfunctions, out of 1000.

So by your definition, few malfunctions = PASS
No Breakage = PASS.

I don't see how you can say if failed miserably...

It seemed like more than 10, but let's say it was because I don't feel like watching it again. That would be an average of one malfunction every 100 rounds. Yes, that's a fail for a combat handgun.

[FLIPPER 348]

Originally Posted by MD357

These guns aren't built to last, which is my whole point, then again, most Taurus owners won't notice as they generally aren't used for anything remotely serious.

...more condescending 1911 snob drivel. How would you know they are not 'built to last'!

[ilgunguygt]

Originally Posted by doolyd

I think a thousand rounds at one time is a lot. If you don't think so please go out and try it.

When you post Todd Jarrett doing it with a Para everyone says Wow cool, when it is a Taurus, man that thing is junk.

Originally Posted by doolyd

I guess we saw the same video but have two different perspectives.

Someone said they counted 10 malfunctions, out of 1000.

So by your definition, few malfunctions = PASS
No Breakage = PASS.

I don't see how you can say if failed miserably.

And I think if Jarrett did it there would probably be zero malfunctions....he is GOD isn't he?

Originally Posted by doolyd

I believe it was a comment about having about 500 rounds through a gun to call it trust worthy? Can't recall.

Please tell me why these aren't built to last? Is it because of the MIM, oh tell me your not one of them guys.

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer

What is "serious" use of a gun?

If someone buys a gun, and tests 500 rounds through it, then carries it, and practises 150 rounds a year thereafter, isn't that serious?

The "serious" use would be the carry for self-defense. After 10 years, the gun would have 2,000 rounds.

Or are you talking about participating in a lot of shooting games as being "serious" use?

I don't know if the Taurus will hold up to 2,000 rounds or 2,000,000. But either way, what defines serious use?

Originally Posted by cigarlover

HA-HA-HA

You poor ignorant slugs make me laugh. Stroll to a SA, Kimber, or Colt forum or any other mass produced custom 1911's. All have some guy with a new pistol that never made it to 1,000 rounds or even 3 without a malfunction. So I guess that makes all you guys A-Holes because you own a custom 1911 that couldn't pass a 1000 round test ? Any one can make a lemon. There is always the unlucky few that get a bad firearm from many a manufacturer. From HK to even our beloved Glock. Seen both fail during competitions by the way...

Now go run and tell that....

Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348

...more condescending 1911 snob drivel. How would you know they are not 'built to last'!

Some of you guys are funny, thats for sure.

Cigarlover, anyone can make a bad product, Taurus has perfected making a bad product. Then providing crappy support for it. Taurus could make the best gun in the world that makes its own ammunition from depleted uranium and could then sell it for 50 dollars and it could be the best product in the world. I would never know though, cause they have already screwed me once and will never see another dime of my momey

Flipper, whats condescending about not wanting to overpay for a low quality 1911? I own a RIA now and I consider it a way better gun than the taurus 1911 that i owned first. If taurus could learn how to make a reliable gun and procide something approaching semi decent customer service, then they might come close to being worth what they are getting for them now.

Im real sorry that some of you guys are getting defensive because you bought a low budget 1911 that advertised itself as a 2000 dollar custom, but get over it. Dont come here and try to blow smoke up the asses of people that know better. You can call a turd a diamond all day long, it wont make it shine any better.

ETA: I went ahead and watched the video again and counted 8 malfunctions(i may have missed one or double counted one, it was pretty boring) in the first half of the torture test (video one). Hard primers? The guy said they were using CCI, same as many of us do, and never have a problem. I even use them in revolvers with light springs. It looks like the hammer was following to the half cock position when it was malfunctioning. Surely not, as we all know there have been NO complaints about the hammers on these, right?

[HAIL CAESAR]

Originally Posted by doolyd

I think a thousand rounds at one time is a lot. If you don't think so please go out and try it.

I have done that MANY times. That is a really big training day or a day that my carry or duty gun gets approval.

Any gun that won't go a grand in a row without a malfunction is a POS.

[doolyd]

Originally Posted by HAIL CAESAR

I have done that MANY times. That is a really big training day or a day that my carry or duty gun gets approval.

Any gun that won't go a grand in a row without a malfunction is a POS.

I didn't mean a thousand rounds in a "big training day" I meant a thousand rounds as fast as you can shoot them. Imagine that gun getting smoking hot and trying to hold it without limp-wristing or loaded each magazine completely and see if you have any malfunctions, big man.

[PlasticGuy]

Originally Posted by doolyd

I didn't mean a thousand rounds in a "big training day" I meant a thousand rounds as fast as you can shoot them. Imagine that gun getting smoking hot and trying to hold it without limp-wristing or loaded each magazine completely and see if you have any malfunctions...

I agree that it's a tough test. That's why he did it. However, the problems you see there are not heat related. They appear to be problems with the trigger/hammer/sear, and that is one of the most common sources of problems with the Taurus 1911's. In fact, the hammer is what broke on the one I had fail on me.

Of course you can replace these parts, but then your overpriced $600 Taurus becomes a brutally overpriced $800 Taurus. Since a lot of the safeties have failed, it would probably be a good idea to replace that also. Add in a general once over and maybe a test fire by your gunsmith and it would be easy to hit the $900 mark. For a Taurus that is still a substandard 1911? No thanks.

[ithaca_deerslayer]

Originally Posted by PlasticGuy

I agree that it's a tough test. That's why he did it. However, the problems you see there are not heat related. They appear to be problems with the trigger/hammer/sear, and that is one of the most common sources of problems with the Taurus 1911's. In fact, the hammer is what broke on the one I had fail on me.

Of course you can replace these parts, but then your overpriced $600 Taurus becomes a brutally overpriced $800 Taurus. Since a lot of the safeties have failed, it would probably be a good idea to replace that also. Add in a general once over and maybe a test fire by your gunsmith and it would be easy to hit the $900 mark. For a Taurus that is still a substandard 1911? No thanks.

But after those replacements, if they were needed, it'd no longer be a substandard gun would it?

I mean, seriously, I'm buying mine thinking "Ok, Taurus wouldn't just make crap, that makes no sense." And since I like the way it holds and the features (aside from the ILS), it should be a good gun.

If the hammer and safety are actually crap, as some of the GT's finest suggest, then those parts can be replaced.

Now, I understand the point of "why not just buy a better gun to begin with?" That could be a very good point, and turn out to be true. But even if it does turn out to be true, replacing those key parts should fix everything, no?

[Brian Brazier]

Unfortunately Taurus does build crap, the only exception (as far as auto pistols) is the 92. The problems with the 1911 and every Taurus are very well documented, it just pays to do your homework. Sure the PT1911 looks like a great deal with all the "upgrades" you get, but then when parts start falling off (happened to me) that price isn't so sweet. I was lucky I got one when they first came out and were cheaper, and since I had so many problems with it my gun shop took it back at only a slight discount, but the trade in, and resale value on them is very low. I could put my Mil Spec up for sale and get exactly what I have into it, if I wanted to, but I don't see that ever happening.

[PlasticGuy]

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer

But after those replacements, if they were needed, it'd no longer be a substandard gun would it?

...If the hammer and safety are actually crap, as some of the GT's finest suggest, then those parts can be replaced.

Now, I understand the point of "why not just buy a better gun to begin with?" That could be a very good point, and turn out to be true. But even if it does turn out to be true, replacing those key parts should fix everything, no?

Yes and no. Those particular parts would no longer be a concern, but what about your slide stop and all the other cast parts you didn't replace? Or you could gut the thing and rebuild it completely. At that point an STI Trojan starts looking cheap, and is a far better 1911 with a higher resale value if you ever part with it. Also, that doesn't do anything to fix the crappy checkering and overall loose fit and rough finish of the major components. If it's just a range toy, it's no big deal. Enjoy it, and maybe you'll get lucky and never have anything break. It's when you turn it into something you could bet your life on that it turns into a money pit.

It reminds me of the guys who dump $10,000 pimping out a Ford Focus. At the end of the day, it's still a Focus. If they had bought a 1969 Camero or a 1968 Mustang and put the same money into it, it would be both a better car and a better investment.

[ithaca_deerslayer]

Originally Posted by PlasticGuy

It reminds me of the guys who dump $10,000 pimping out a Ford Focus. At the end of the day, it's still a Focus. If they had bought a 1969 Camero or a 1968 Mustang and put the same money into it, it would be both a better car and a better investment.

I don't even know what a Ford Focus is. Let's talk about a Chevy Monza. My brother had one with a V-8 that could haul butt! However, he had to jack the engine to change the plugs.

I'm not pimping out my Taurus unless something breaks. If it breaks, I will have been wrong to buy it, and I will tell all of GT about it.

Man, I wish there was statistical data on this stuff.

Kimber: percent broken safeties = 3%
Taurus: percent broken safeties = 4%
Glock: percent broken safeties = "don't need no stinkin' safety!"

[HAIL CAESAR]

Originally Posted by doolyd

I didn't mean a thousand rounds in a "big training day" I meant a thousand rounds as fast as you can shoot them. Imagine that gun getting smoking hot and trying to hold it without limp-wristing or loaded each magazine completely and see if you have any malfunctions, big man.

My 100 pound wife burned through a better part of a grand in less than 2 hours. It didn't bother her too much.

[PlasticGuy]

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer

I don't even know what a Ford Focus is...

Man, I wish there was statistical data on this stuff.

Kimber: percent broken safeties = 3%
Taurus: percent broken safeties = 4%
Glock: percent broken safeties = "don't need no stinkin' safety!"

Substitute Geo Metro, and you'd be close.

Here's my statistical data. I was a gun department manager at a large sporting goods store during the first 18 months that Taurus was shipping their 1911's. I have friends that worked in (or owned) literally every other sporting goods store and gunshop in town. Almost exactly half of the Taurus 1911's sold in this area in the first 18 moths of production had to be sent back to Taurus.

And while you're right about non-existant Glock safeties never breaking, I've actually seen more Glock extractors break in class than 1911 extractors. So much for that myth.

[doolyd]

Originally Posted by PlasticGuy

Yes and no. Those particular parts would no longer be a concern, but what about your slide stop and all the other cast parts you didn't replace? Or you could gut the thing and rebuild it completely. At that point an STI Trojan starts looking cheap, and is a far better 1911 with a higher resale value if you ever part with it. Also, that doesn't do anything to fix the crappy checkering and overall loose fit and rough finish of the major components. If it's just a range toy, it's no big deal. Enjoy it, and maybe you'll get lucky and never have anything break. It's when you turn it into something you could bet your life on that it turns into a money pit.

So in your opinion people who buy RIA have to replace nothing and it is considered a quality gun that is good to go?

[doolyd]

Originally Posted by HAIL CAESAR

My 100 pound wife burned through a better part of a grand in less than 2 hours. It didn't bother her too much.

You got one hell of a lady my friend.

[doolyd]

Originally Posted by PlasticGuy

I agree that it's a tough test. That's why he did it. However, the problems you see there are not heat related. They appear to be problems with the trigger/hammer/sear,

I don't know how you can tell that from the video but I can't say it's not so I won't debate it.

[PlasticGuy]

Originally Posted by doolyd

So in your opinion people who buy RIA have to replace nothing and it is considered a quality gun that is good to go?

It depends on what you're using it for and how many rounds you expect to put through it. Maybe. The biggest difference with RIA is that it loses features but gains a little quality, and at least you get your money's worth.

[PlasticGuy]

Originally Posted by doolyd

I don't know how you can tell that from the video but I can't say it's not so I won't debate it.

It seemed like most of his issues were fail-to-fires, which is why people are talking about hard primers. I'd have to watch the video again to be sure, but that's how I remember it.

Regardless, one malfunction every 100 rounds is simply unacceptable no matter the cause. Everything else is just arguing details while missing the bigger picture.

[bac1023]

Originally Posted by Brian Brazier

Unfortunately Taurus does build crap, the only exception (as far as auto pistols) is the 92.

Not a Taurus pistol fan, but the 92 is one they didn't screw up.

[MD357]

What is "serious" use of a gun?

HD, SD, or competition?

If someone buys a gun, and tests 500 rounds through it, then carries it, and practises 150 rounds a year thereafter, isn't that serious?

Not in my book. That's a fourth of what you go through in a good pistol class from a credible school.

Again, I think I've proven my point here of what I said earlier. Most Taurus owners just don't know any better because they don't put their guns through any rigor.

[MD357]

Originally Posted by cigarlover

HA-HA-HA

You poor ignorant slugs make me laugh. Stroll to a SA, Kimber, or Colt forum or any other mass produced custom 1911's. All have some guy with a new pistol that never made it to 1,000 rounds or even 3 without a malfunction. So I guess that makes all you guys A-Holes because you own a custom 1911 that couldn't pass a 1000 round test ? Any one can make a lemon. There is always the unlucky few that get a bad firearm from many a manufacturer. From HK to even our beloved Glock. Seen both fail during competitions by the way...

Now go run and tell that....

Since all gun manufacturers make lemons they are all equal? Um no. I think it's quite obvious some make more than others. Rather, their demand to use certain parts or hasty fitting set them up for failure. Outside of that, it's also obvious that some have a better QC and CS dept aswell.