GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-02-2010, 15:32   #201
hikerpaddler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 5,428
Send a message via AIM to hikerpaddler
It's an unbelieveably average and mildly overpriced round! Amazing! Al Queda is switching to it! ! (random exclamation mark unassociated with a statement). Next up - CHOLESTEROL proving to be an unbelieveable manstopper?????

Not a thing wrong with .357sig except that it's generally overpriced. Middle of the pack in performance. 9mm, .357sig, .40S&W, .45ACP, all fine rounds. I dig all the manstopper, force transfer, exit wound overanalysis. Shoot them with bullets, (not that that's very likely to happen in a ccw situation, but it's remotely possible), and anything from 9mm up is quite likely to work.
__________________
NRA Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor
hikerpaddler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 15:55   #202
dahahn
Senior Member
 
dahahn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones13 View Post
In short, BPW may exist but you can't count on it because it's effects are unpredictable.
You're absolutely right. In thinking about it, BPW (as you put it, and much easier to type) depends on mass, and that isn't going to be consistent among people that wish to attack you.

I would like to see a study to show a difference in BPW between different masses, for example a shot on a five hundred pound pig vs a shot on a 200 pound deer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones13 View Post
However, there does not appear to be a validated alternative.
Unfortunately, again you're right. With our technology, shouldn't we be able to replicate something close to the human body, substance-wise?

My annoyance is when people take ballistics gelatin tests for the grail, when it is not. As you've said, though, there is currently no viable alternative (except animals, which would take plenty of flack, but I have no problem with it, so long as the animal is used afterward). I will say that personally I believe there's something to pressure wave theory, and I personally like 357SIG because if that's the case (BPW), it can give me a tiny advantage in a situation where my life may be at stake.

Last edited by dahahn; 02-02-2010 at 15:57..
dahahn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 16:53   #203
Bones13
Member
 
Bones13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Directly above the center of the ea
Posts: 41
Dahahn,

People (and animals) bodies are amazingly tough and resilient...and variable. Even if it was possible to shoot people for the purpose of testing ammo, you would need an extremely large sample size in each caliber in order to have statistically valid results. Even if you put beef ribs in front of gelatin to simulate bone hits, the variations in thickness and density of the bone would require very large sample sizes.

The basic ballistic gel tests give us a limited but consistent amount of information. Take it with a grain of salt; but I don't see anything better on the horizon.

I understand your desire to get any edge possible, but it makes sense to also focus on things we know, since you can't take BPW to the bank.
__________________
The Audacity of Nope
Bones13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 17:01   #204
dahahn
Senior Member
 
dahahn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones13 View Post
Dahahn,

People (and animals) bodies are amazingly tough and resilient...and variable. Even if it was possible to shoot people for the purpose of testing ammo, you would need an extremely large sample size in each caliber in order to have statistically valid results. Even if you put beef ribs in front of gelatin to simulate bone hits, the variations in thickness and density of the bone would require very large sample sizes.

The basic ballistic gel tests give us a limited but consistent amount of information. Take it with a grain of salt; but I don't see anything better on the horizon.

I understand your desire to get any edge possible, but it makes sense to also focus on things we know, since you can't take BPW to the bank.
Oh, I agree. I was just trying to say that using the 357SIG gives me confidence should I run into a self-defense situation, whether it's valid or not. I also couldn't agree more with your statement on the sample size.

All in all what I have taken away is this: there's no figures for a better caliber. There's a lot of speculation on whether the 357SIG is just a hot 9mm (a 9mm 147 gr +P+++ yields the same results!!!1! /sarcasm), just as there's a lot of speculation regarding the 357SIG as a superior round. All in all it seems that it's neither in the end, it's proficiency with the weapon and confidence in using it.

I think we can all agree that, in a self defense situation, having a gun in whatever caliber is better than no gun at all.
dahahn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 17:08   #205
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahahn View Post
You're absolutely right. In thinking about it, BPW (as you put it, and much easier to type) depends on mass, and that isn't going to be consistent among people that wish to attack you.

I would like to see a study to show a difference in BPW between different masses, for example a shot on a five hundred pound pig vs a shot on a 200 pound deer.

Keep in mind a couple of things. The shot placement on the deer in those studies is farther away from the head than relative human subject would be. A plus for BPW against humans. Also, because of the deers natural resiliance to blunt trauma to the head (mating battles for example), humans should be more succeptable. Another plus for BPW towards humans.

Another consideration as a positve for BPW... no matter the drive or narcotic influence of the aggressor, TBI from BPW gets the last word, similar to a CNS shot.



Unfortunately, again you're right. With our technology, shouldn't we be able to replicate something close to the human body, substance-wise?

My annoyance is when people take ballistics gelatin tests for the grail, when it is not. As you've said, though, there is currently no viable alternative (except animals, which would take plenty of flack, but I have no problem with it, so long as the animal is used afterward). I will say that personally I believe there's something to pressure wave theory, and I personally like 357SIG because if that's the case (BPW), it can give me a tiny advantage in a situation where my life may be at stake.
.....
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic

Last edited by uz2bUSMC; 02-02-2010 at 17:11..
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 17:14   #206
Bones13
Member
 
Bones13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Directly above the center of the ea
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
.....
Are you saying BPW is a reliable and predictable means of incapacitation?
__________________
The Audacity of Nope
Bones13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 17:19   #207
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones13 View Post
Are you saying BPW is a reliable and predictable means of incapacitation?
No... cause I would have said that. What I have said a million and one times is choose a cartridge and loading that fits your needs based on your personal risk assessment. At this point, you could choose a round (if several meet your criteria) out of a group that yields the highest Peak Ballistic Pressure Wave as an added advantage
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 17:54   #208
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocKWL View Post
Thank you. I have all of those. Those papers have been thoroughly picked apart and are considered junk science at best by some of the most brilliant minds in the industry. You are living in a house of cards if that is your foundation of understanding.

The Strasbourg goat tests can not be proven to have ever taken place and the M&S OSS data is severely flawed.
I still say that some of these "best minds" are driven by agenda. They use their "brilliance" to discredit. If they are able to show that as junk science they would have done that here aswell. But instead, they tend to do this where they feel safe, and have rallied the koolaid drinkin' Facklerites. There arguments usually are short lived over here because people will ACTUALLY QUESTION them.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 17:54   #209
PghJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,794
Quote:
POSTED BY ALASKAPOPO _ Frankly what some road toad thinks does not matter much. Most of the guys you have talked to have probably never been in a gun fight and if they have I doubt they were in a gun fight where they could compare the 9mm and the 357 sig under simular conditions. You need to look at the big picture for that and not on the war stories of a few cops.
That is the most condesending thing I have heard you say. The people I have spoken to were referring to the experience of the entire State Patrol, not just one man's opinion. Also they have had several shootings of BG's and animals. I guess that experience does not have any merit Rambo.
PghJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 18:27   #210
Bones13
Member
 
Bones13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Directly above the center of the ea
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
No... cause I would have said that. What I have said a million and one times is choose a cartridge and loading that fits your needs based on your personal risk assessment. At this point, you could choose a round (if several meet your criteria) out of a group that yields the highest Peak Ballistic Pressure Wave as an added advantage
That makes sense.

Another consideration as a positve for BPW... no matter the drive or narcotic influence of the aggressor, TBI from BPW gets the last word, similar to a CNS shot.

Comparing TBI from BPW to a CNS shot does not.
__________________
The Audacity of Nope
Bones13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 18:35   #211
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones13 View Post
That makes sense.

Another consideration as a positve for BPW... no matter the drive or narcotic influence of the aggressor, TBI from BPW gets the last word, similar to a CNS shot.

Comparing TBI from BPW to a CNS shot does not.
It does... as an effect. CNS will kill however, TBI will incapacitate. Both able to drop someone like a sack o' laundry. Similar to a concussive knockout.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 19:00   #212
Bones13
Member
 
Bones13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Directly above the center of the ea
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
It does... as an effect. CNS will kill however, TBI will incapacitate. Both able to drop someone like a sack o' laundry. Similar to a concussive knockout.
A concussive knockout occurs because the brain is being bounced around the skull like a ping pong ball. Pressure waves traveling through soft tissue are a very different thing. The same right hook that knocks someone out in one fight might simply piss off your opponent in another. Still, it doesn't mean it isn't worth a try.
__________________
The Audacity of Nope
Bones13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 19:04   #213
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
Frankly I don't really much care what the FBI says on the subject of stopping power. I don't take advice on selecting handguns and calibers from attorneys and accountants with badges. If I want advice on such matters I will turn to people who study shootings and wound ballistics like Dr. Roberts and Dr. Fackler.
Are you claiming that Drs. Roberts and Fackler "study shootings and wound ballistics" while the FBI forensic and ballistics scientists don't?

Taken at face value I find this a rather uninformed statement, so if you wish to clarify it please do.

As for the FBI's FTU chief's quoted comments, I think he would rely on more than just personal disregard for the caliber when making such statements. I assume he has information from said FBI scientists as well as field agent observations to buttress his words. (Like the investigation into the infamous Miami shootout!) Again, if you believe he's a loose cannon please say so.

And while I do agree with you that each of us should put the time, study, and effort into selecting the optimum caliber (which nobody disputes) I don't believe the expertise of FBI agents is limited to bean counting and legal arguments.
__________________
Rocket Scientist
unit1069 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 19:06   #214
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones13 View Post
A concussive knockout occurs because the brain is being bounced around the skull like a ping pong ball. Pressure waves traveling through soft tissue are a very different thing. The same right hook that knocks someone out in one fight might simply piss off your opponent in another. Still, it doesn't mean it isn't worth a try.
Keep it in perspective. The result is the same, the means can make little difference as far as incapacitation. A CNS will incapacitate and kill, TBI will incapacitate and other activities will do the killing. Both are forms of traumatic brain injury. What do you think is happening when the brain is bouncing around like a ping pong ball? And your second to last sentence is true, nothing is 100% and I never said BPW was...
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 19:11   #215
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
Are you claiming that Drs. Roberts and Fackler "study shootings and wound ballistics" while the FBI forensic and ballistics scientists don't?

Taken at face value I find this a rather uninformed statement, so if you wish to clarify it please do.

As for the FBI's FTU chief's quoted comments, I think he would rely on more than just personal disregard for the caliber when making such statements. I assume he has information from said FBI scientists as well as field agent observations to buttress his words. (Like the investigation into the infamous Miami shootout!) Again, if you believe he's a loose cannon please say so.

And while I do agree with you that each of us should put the time, study, and effort into selecting the optimum caliber (which nobody disputes) I don't believe the expertise of FBI agents is limited to bean counting and legal arguments.
An accountant may not take an interest in studying terminal ballistics but a dentist would.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 20:59   #216
dahahn
Senior Member
 
dahahn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
No... cause I would have said that. What I have said a million and one times is choose a cartridge and loading that fits your needs based on your personal risk assessment. At this point, you could choose a round (if several meet your criteria) out of a group that yields the highest Peak Ballistic Pressure Wave as an added advantage
The added advantage is the wording I was looking for, but couldn't find. I enjoy that there's a possibility that, on top of shot placement and action on my part, the bullet may do above what I expect it to do. Am I going to rely on it? No, but it's nice to know that should the conditions be favorable, it may occur.
dahahn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 21:01   #217
dahahn
Senior Member
 
dahahn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones13 View Post
Still, it doesn't mean it isn't worth a try.
Couldn't have said it better.
dahahn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 00:03   #218
glock20c10mm
Senior Member
 
glock20c10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Out West
Posts: 5,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones13 View Post
Courtney may be able to demonstrate that Ballistic pressure waves can cause brain injury but there is a wealth of data that shows that it is not a reliable or repeatable phenomenon.
You're absolutely correct. Even Dr. Michael Coutney himself openly points that out.

I'd be willing to accept that injury can occur in this manner and that it is more likely to occur with a more energetic round, etc., but I don't think anyone could ever create a pistol or rifle round that is guaranteed to stop as a result.
You're absolutely correct. Even Dr. Michael Coutney himself openly points that out.


Quote:
In short, BPW may exist but you can't count on it because it's effects are unpredictable.
Also of course 100% correct.

If rounds that produce a higher peak ballistic pressure wave incapacitate animals quicker ON AVERAGE, which a number of GT members can tell you from experience (not to mention Dr. Courtney's studies), then I don't see how it wouldn't work the same (for all practical purposes) on humans, as long as one can still use a cartridge/platform combo that still works well tactically.

For me, a 10mm Glock fills that niche, while still IMO not going overboard (Desert Eagle...).


Good Shooting,
Craig
__________________
Free Men Don't Need To Ask Permission To Bear Arms

The Glock 29 is the most versatile handgun yet produced.
glock20c10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 00:23   #219
glock20c10mm
Senior Member
 
glock20c10mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Out West
Posts: 5,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
No... cause I would have said that. What I have said a million and one times is choose a cartridge and loading that fits your needs based on your personal risk assessment. At this point, you could choose a round (if several meet your criteria) out of a group that yields the highest Peak Ballistic Pressure Wave as an added advantage
And the above quoted text by uz2bUSMC is the reason I've computed the numbers to see where various common SD cartridge loads stand comparatively.

The kinetic energy is listed after "KE", penetration depth is listed after "P" and is based on clothed gel for ALL rounds, expanded bullet diameter is listed after "E", wound volume is listed in cubic inches(ci) and is based on 12" penetration for ALL rounds unless a specific round couldn't manage 12" penetration, and in the last column in pounds per square inch(psi) is the peak ballistic pressure wave. Please note - for PBPW, for any round that fragmented to any extent, the PBPW is actually higher than what's shown. All PBPW numbers assume zero fragmentation. Very generally, for the PERCENTAGE a round fragments, that same percentage would be added to the PBPW in psi.

Most of the HST #s and Speer Gold Dot #s are based on averages from the ATK workshop results with various police departments. Those that aren't based on an average were tested only 1 time. Those workshop results can be viewed in their entirety here - http://www.le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

Win 380auto T Series, 95gr, 1000fps, KE=211, P=7.95, E=.64, 2.6ci, 507psi

Speer 38special+P GD, 135gr, 860fps, KE=222, P=11.75, E=.59, 3.2ci, 361psi
Win 38spcl T Series+P, 130gr, 925fps, KE=247, P=12.00, E=.67, 4.2ci, 393psi

Win 9mm+P+ Ranger, 115gr, 1335fps, KE=455, P=8.50, E=.81, 4.4ci, 1023psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 115gr, 1415fps, KE=511, P=12.00, E=.70, 4.6ci, 813psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 124gr, 1310fps, KE=472, P=13.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 684psi
Federal 9mm+P HST, 124gr, 1200fps, KE=396, P=12.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 605psi
Federal 9mm HST,,,, 124gr, 1150fps, KE=364, P=13.90, E=.64, 3.9ci, 501psi
Win9mm+P T Series, 124gr, 1180fps, KE=383, P=13.90, E=.67, 4.2ci, 526psi
Win9mm +P Bonded, 124gr, 1180fps, KE=383, P=18.70, E=.54, 2.7ci, 392psi
Win9mm+P+TSeries, 127gr, 1250fps, KE=441, P=12.20, E=.68, 4.4ci, 691psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 147gr, 1125fps, KE=413, P=14.00, E=.66, 4.1ci, 563psi
Federal 9mm HST,,,, 147gr, 1000fps, KE=326, P=14.40, E=.66, 4.1ci, 433psi
Speer 9mm GD,,,,,,,, 147gr,, 990fps, KE=320, P=15.25, E=.58, 3.2ci, 401psi
Win 9mm T Series,,,, 147gr,, 990fps, KE=320, P=14.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 422psi
Win 9mm Bonded,,,,, 147gr,, 995fps, KE=323, P=16.50, E=.59, 3.3ci, 374psi

DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 115gr, 1550fps, KE=613, P=12.12, E=.71, 4.8ci, 955psi
DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 125gr, 1450fps, KE=584, P=14.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 770psi
Win357SIG T Series, 125gr, 1350fps, KE=506, P=12.10, E=.66, 4.1ci, 798psi
Win357SIG Bonded,, 125gr, 1350fps, KE=506, P=15.90, E=.57, 3.1ci, 608psi
DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 147gr, 1250fps, KE=510, P=14.75, E=.73, 5.0ci, 661psi

DT 357mag Gold Dot, 125gr, 1600fps, KE=710, P=12.75, E=.69, 4.5ci, 1063psi
Speer SB 357magGD, 125gr,,, 990fps, KE=294, P=14.50, E=.65, 4.0ci, 388psi
Win 357magSilvertip, 145gr, 1290fps,, KE=536, P=12.50, E=.59, 3.3ci, 819psi
DT 357mag Gold Dot, 158gr, 1400fps, KE=688, P=19.00, E=.56, 3.0ci, 692psi

DT 9X25 Gold Dot, 115gr, 1800fps, KE=827, P=10.00, E=.64, 3.2ci, 1579psi
DT 9X25 Gold Dot, 125gr, 1725fps, KE=826, P=15.00, E=.74, 5.2ci, 1051psi
DT 9X25 Gold Dot, 147gr, 1550fps, KE=784, P=17.50, E=.68, 4.4ci,, 856psi

DT 40S&W Nosler,,,, 135gr, 1375fps, KE=567, P=12.10, E=.72, 4.9ci, 894psi
DT 40S&W Gold Dot, 155gr, 1275fps, KE=559, P=13.00, E=.76, 5.4ci, 825psi
DT 40S&W Gold Dot, 165gr, 1200fps, KE=528, P=14.00, E=.70, 4.6ci, 721psi
Rem Golden Saber,,, 165gr, 1150fps, KE=485, P=14.00, E=.67, 4.2ci, 662psi
Federal 40S&W HST, 165gr, 1130fps, KE=468, P=14.00, E=.75, 5.3ci, 637psi
Win40S&W T Series, 165gr, 1140fps, KE=476, P=13.20, E=.70, 4.6ci, 690psi
Win 40S&W Bonded, 165gr, 1140fps, KE=476, P=19.00, E=.55, 2.9ci, 479psi
Speer 40S&W GD,,,, 180gr. 1025fps, KE=420, P=11.75, E=.72, 4.9ci, 683psi
DT 40S&W Gold Dot, 180gr, 1100fps, KE=484, P=14.75, E=.68, 4.4ci, 626psi
Federal 40S&W HST, 180gr, 1010fps, KE=408, P=13.40, E=.77, 5.6ci, 582psi
Rem JHP (not GS),,,, 180gr, 1015fps, KE=412, P=13.25, E=.69, 4.5ci, 594psi
Win40S&W T Series, 180gr,,, 990fps, KE=392, P=14.30, E=.70, 4.6ci, 524psi
Win 40S&W Bonded, 180gr,, 1070fps, KE=458, P=21.80, E=.51, 2.5ci, 402psi

DT 10mm Nosler,,,, 135gr, 1600fps, KE=767, P=11.00, E=.70, 4.2ci, 1332psi
DT 10mm Gold Dot, 155gr, 1475fps, KE=749, P=13.50, E=.88, 7.3ci, 1061psi
DT 10mm G. Saber, 165gr, 1425fps, KE=744, P=14.75, E=.82, 6.3ci, 964psi
DT 10mm Gold Dot, 165gr, 1400psi, KE=718, P=14.25, E=1.02, 9.8ci, 962psi
DT 10mm Gold Dot, 180gr, 1300fps, KE=675, P=15.25, E=.96, 8.7ci, 846psi
DT 10mm G. Saber, 180gr, 1330fps, KE=707, P=16.00, E=.85, 6.8ci, 844psi
DT 10mm Hor. XTP, 180gr, 1350fps, KE=728, P=17.25, E=.77, 5.6ci, 808psi
DT 10mm Hor. XTP, 200gr, 1250fps, KE=694, P=19.50, E=.72, 4.9ci, 680psi

Win 45GAP T Series, 230gr, 905fps, KE=418, P=12.70, E=.72, 4.9ci, 630psi

DT 45auto Gold Dot, 185gr, 1225fps, KE=616, P=12.75, E=.82, 6.3ci, 923psi
Rem45auto G Saber, 185gr, 1140fps, KE=534, P=14.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 716psi
Win45auto Silvertip, 185gr, 1000fps, KE=411, P=13.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 593psi
DT 45auto Gold Dot, 200gr, 1125fps, KE=562, P=14.25, E=.88, 7.3ci, 753psi
DT 45auto Gold Dot, 230gr, 1010fps, KE=521, P=15.25, E=.95, 8.5ci, 653psi
Federal45auto+P HST,230gr, 950fps, KE=461, P=14.60, E=.85, 6.8ci, 603psi
Federal 45auto HST, 230gr,, 890fps, KE=405, P=14.40, E=.86, 7.0ci, 537psi
Speer 45auto G Dot, 230gr,, 890fps, KE=405, P=13.50, E=.70, 4.6ci, 573psi
Rem45auto G Saber, 230gr,, 875fps, KE=391, P=14.00, E=.74, 5.2ci, 534psi
Win 45auto T Series, 230gr, 905fps, KE=418, P=12.70, E=.72, 4.9ci, 630psi
Win45auto+PTSeries, 230gr, 990fps, KE=500, P=15.20, E=.78, 5.7ci, 628psi
Win 45 auto Bonded, 230gr, 905fps, KE=418, P=15.80, E=.67, 4.2ci, 506psi



Good Shooting,
Craig
__________________
Free Men Don't Need To Ask Permission To Bear Arms

The Glock 29 is the most versatile handgun yet produced.
glock20c10mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 03:14   #220
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahahn View Post
The added advantage is the wording I was looking for, but couldn't find. I enjoy that there's a possibility that, on top of shot placement and action on my part, the bullet may do above what I expect it to do. Am I going to rely on it? No, but it's nice to know that should the conditions be favorable, it may occur.
Perfect. You seem to have the perfect understanding of the points that are trying to be made regarding BPW, sir. I DON'T KNOW THAT YOUR LAST THREE SENTENCES COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN ANY BETTER BY ANYONE!
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 14:03.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,124
329 Members
795 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42