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Old 01-15-2010, 21:14   #21
fastbolt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
You lied!


K, there's more I would like to comment on but I haven't the time 2nyt. I hit this back up 'morrow. G'Nyt FB.
Hmmm.

Looking back at it, I'd have to say you're right. :(

How about "somewhat shorter"?

Really, though, don't feel compelled to become involved in an extended discussion or debate. I don't have much interest one way or the other in how the popularity of the .357SIG develops, or fails to develop. I have enough on my plate with the 3 major defensive pistol calibers that I own and use. I can certainly support any .357SIG guns that may come across my bench, anyway. Not a big deal.

Talk to you tomorrow.
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Old 01-15-2010, 21:41   #22
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Fastbolt, nice posts! Well thought out and articulated.
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Old 01-15-2010, 22:46   #23
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Fastbolt,
First of all, GREAT POSTS! I do own a G32 - mostly because I got a good deal on it when I was looking for a G19, annddd because it came with a Glock 9mm conversion barrel (a caliber I much prefer overall) so win-win all around.

I do like the 357 SiG caliber though - was first exposed to it shooting a friend's P229 then my brother's G33 - and find it is a great SD round, one I would carry more often if I lived in a more remote / rural area. As it is though, I usually (90%) carry a G38 with the remaining 10% split between the G32 with conv barrel, my Para LTC, or my AirWeight J-frame depending on itinerary and/or concealment garments fitting the season. (Gets pretty hot here in VA in the summer.) I feel I usually just don't need / want the penetration / power of the SiG in the heavily populated area in which I live - JMO, YMMV.

Still, caliber not withstanding, I find my choice is increasingly Glock or Glock; reliability, durability, dependability - and sweat resistance . They just work!
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Old 01-15-2010, 23:53   #24
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Boy, how many times do we hear that. Isn't a 44 mag. just a faster 44 special? Isn't the 357 mag. just a faster 38 special? The velocity issues do matter. According to articles in Guns and American Handgunner it is increasing in popularity among LE, particularly the Higway Patrols. However, agencies and groups that would probably study this sort of thing because they have a good chance to use the gun seem to be growing also. No round is perfect but I think even comparing it to a +p+ 9 would be rediculous.
I only meant in the simplist terms that it is a faster .355 caliber cartridge. It wasn't meant in a negative way, nor to take anything away from the 357SIG as compared to anything else.


Can you be more specific where you say; "The velocity issues do matter." ???
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Old 01-15-2010, 23:59   #25
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FWIW, one of the things I've heard mentioned among a small number of instructors who had considered the .357SIG at one point or another 9and an agency who did adopt it) was the problem with getting sufficient quantities of training & duty ammunition at prices similar to that of other calibers.
To be clear, did anybody mention not being able to get a needed quantity, OR, they had no issue getting any quantity and it was only in relation to cost?
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Old 01-16-2010, 00:02   #26
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I read a report years ago from Henrico County, VA Sheriffs that basically said that they were evaluating it because of its similiarity to 357 magnum 125gr.

Their evaluation was that while it did not duplicate the loading exactly ballistically, the end results were the same and the guns were lighter, less recoil, and higher capacity.

The biggest highlight of the review was that the 357Sig/125 loading performed the best when confronted with car windshields as an intermediate barrier. For trivia 40/155 did second best. Wish I could remember what ammo they were using...

They adopted it.
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Old 01-16-2010, 01:58   #27
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Can you be more specific where you say; "The velocity issues do matter." ???
Yes, the 9mm Ranger T 127gr +p+ leaves my G19 at 1,210 fps, the 125gr. Cor-Bon 357 Sig JHP leaves my G32 at 1,430. The effect on any media I have shot, including animals, has been much more devastating with the 357sig than the 9mm. If velocity did not matter why would people be shooting 9mm +p instead of just 9mm.

The 357 sig is more than a novelty. It was 12 years ago when I first got a gun chambered for it. I doubt it will take over the 40 anytime soon, but unless you own a 9mm, a 357 sig, a 40 and a 45 as I do, I do not know how you can make a comparison. I shoot probably 3,000 handgun rounds a year in all of calibers combined, and I carry the 357 sig. Not that I would feel undergunned with my G19, G23 or XD45, but I have seen the effectiveness of the 357 sig on some animals, water jugs and gelatin.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:03   #28
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What is the "Sky Marshall", round? For some reason I think it is .357sig, but it might be 9mm. If it is .357sig that would account for an increase in .357sig popularity.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:20   #29
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What is the "Sky Marshall", round?
357 Sig. I understand they have been getting different brands due to procurement issues lately, but they used to carry the slower 1,350fps 125gr Gold Dot for penetration issues. Not for the plane body, but rather for concern for the passenger body behind the BG.
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:40   #30
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To be clear, did anybody mention not being able to get a needed quantity, OR, they had no issue getting any quantity and it was only in relation to cost?
I was told they weren't able to get enough .357SIG after adopting the caliber and had to make do with using conversion barrels for .40 S&W for training. (Not an ideal solution, or one necessarily recommended by that gun company for dedicated LE duty weapons.)

It seems the cost of the .357SIG ammunition was a separate (but not inconsequential) issue which was of later concern when it became more easily available.

Of course, availability can be influenced by a number of things, as can procurement (vendor selection/bid).
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Old 01-16-2010, 07:11   #31
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Most 9mm fans will opt for the better +p or +p+ defensive rounds and there's a reason for this. The .357SIG follows the same reasoning that faster is better, just to a higher level unobtainable with the 9mm and yet still in a 9mm platform. As evidenced, the closer we get to original .357 mag. ballistics, the more reliable manstopper you will have. I'd expect the 10mm to be a superior stopper to the .40 as well(same bullet at higher velocity). With a properly designed bullet, more energy will always win, all things being equal such as shot placement,etc. Really makes one wonder what the 9x25 Dillon could acheive with a properly designed bullet! A ".357SIG magnum" should be all the better. The increase in stopping power indicated by higher velocity rounds tends to prove(again)that bullets dont incapicitate simply because they "poke holes". If that were true I'd expect everyone to simply carry a sharp stick and be done with it. The effect of muzzle energy on incapicitation is well documented in terms of it's effects and it's effects are linear, meaning it doesnt just "magically" begin to have an effect at that "mystical" 2,000fps mark. We may lack the science to disect it, but it's nevertheless apparent "where the rubber meets the road", so to speak. Meaning simply that the end result is what matters and we can wait for the science to catch up and explain why, in detail, later.
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Old 01-16-2010, 08:59   #32
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Most 9mm fans will opt for the better +p or +p+ defensive rounds and there's a reason for this. The .357SIG follows the same reasoning that faster is better, just to a higher level unobtainable with the 9mm and yet still in a 9mm platform. As evidenced, the closer we get to original .357 mag. ballistics, the more reliable manstopper you will have. I'd expect the 10mm to be a superior stopper to the .40 as well(same bullet at higher velocity). With a properly designed bullet, more energy will always win, all things being equal such as shot placement,etc. Really makes one wonder what the 9x25 Dillon could acheive with a properly designed bullet! A ".357SIG magnum" should be all the better. The increase in stopping power indicated by higher velocity rounds tends to prove(again)that bullets dont incapicitate simply because they "poke holes". If that were true I'd expect everyone to simply carry a sharp stick and be done with it. The effect of muzzle energy on incapicitation is well documented in terms of it's effects and it's effects are linear, meaning it doesnt just "magically" begin to have an effect at that "mystical" 2,000fps mark. We may lack the science to disect it, but it's nevertheless apparent "where the rubber meets the road", so to speak. Meaning simply that the end result is what matters and we can wait for the science to catch up and explain why, in detail, later.
Well said!
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Old 01-16-2010, 14:56   #33
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Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
Yes, the 9mm Ranger T 127gr +p+ leaves my G19 at 1,210 fps, the 125gr. Cor-Bon 357 Sig JHP leaves my G32 at 1,430. The effect on any media I have shot, including animals, has been much more devastating with the 357sig than the 9mm. If velocity did not matter why would people be shooting 9mm +p instead of just 9mm.

The 357 sig is more than a novelty. It was 12 years ago when I first got a gun chambered for it. I doubt it will take over the 40 anytime soon, but unless you own a 9mm, a 357 sig, a 40 and a 45 as I do, I do not know how you can make a comparison. I shoot probably 3,000 handgun rounds a year in all of calibers combined, and I carry the 357 sig. Not that I would feel undergunned with my G19, G23 or XD45, but I have seen the effectiveness of the 357 sig on some animals, water jugs and gelatin.
Thanks for clarifying.

Craig
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Old 01-16-2010, 15:02   #34
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Originally Posted by .45Super-Man View Post
Most 9mm fans will opt for the better +p or +p+ defensive rounds and there's a reason for this. The .357SIG follows the same reasoning that faster is better, just to a higher level unobtainable with the 9mm and yet still in a 9mm platform. As evidenced, the closer we get to original .357 mag. ballistics, the more reliable manstopper you will have. I'd expect the 10mm to be a superior stopper to the .40 as well(same bullet at higher velocity). With a properly designed bullet, more energy will always win, all things being equal such as shot placement,etc. Really makes one wonder what the 9x25 Dillon could acheive with a properly designed bullet! A ".357SIG magnum" should be all the better. The increase in stopping power indicated by higher velocity rounds tends to prove(again)that bullets dont incapicitate simply because they "poke holes". If that were true I'd expect everyone to simply carry a sharp stick and be done with it. The effect of muzzle energy on incapicitation is well documented in terms of it's effects and it's effects are linear, meaning it doesnt just "magically" begin to have an effect at that "mystical" 2,000fps mark. We may lack the science to disect it, but it's nevertheless apparent "where the rubber meets the road", so to speak. Meaning simply that the end result is what matters and we can wait for the science to catch up and explain why, in detail, later.
Yeah, what unit1069 said!

Double Tap 9X25 Gold Dot loads:
115gr, 1800fps/827ft-lbs, 10.0" penetration in clothed gel
125gr, 1725fps/826ft-lbs, 15.0" penetration in clothed gel
147gr, 1550fps/784ft-lbs, 17.5" penetration in clothed gel

Scary in all the right ways!!!

Good Shooting,
Craig
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Old 01-16-2010, 15:05   #35
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I am far from educated on this manner, but I have taken a special interest in ballistics and I have researched and reviewed and analyzed a lot of data on gelatin, penetration, expansion, energy, etc and how the different calibers stack up and every time I do this the rank seems to be 10mm, 45acp/357sig (tie), 40sw, 9mm. Not too mention that it also seems to have a more controllable recoil than the 40sw.

I too agree that the 357 sig is an awesome round!
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Old 01-16-2010, 18:41   #36
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Not sure on your original question(s), but I can't find ammo at Wally World for .357 Sig anywhere around here. They get in 9 and .40 in all the time.
My Walmart has 125 grain .357 SIG and Federal FMJ 180 grain .40 S&W (@$13.97/50) on the shelf right now. I bought their last 6 boxes of $15.97 Federal FMJ .45 ACP.

...and I also carry one of two German .357 SIG pistols when not carrying a .45ACP.
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Old 01-16-2010, 18:46   #37
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The effect of muzzle energy on incapicitation is well documented in terms of it's effects and it's effects are linear, meaning it doesnt just "magically" begin to have an effect at that "mystical" 2,000fps mark.
Bro, do you know how many times i've said this almost... if not... the EXACT same way?!!
Man, it's nice to hear someone else say that! You neeed to start posting more, brotha.
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Old 01-16-2010, 18:59   #38
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
Yeah, what unit1069 said!

Double Tap 9X25 Gold Dot loads:
115gr, 1800fps/827ft-lbs, 10.0" penetration in clothed gel
125gr, 1725fps/826ft-lbs, 15.0" penetration in clothed gel
147gr, 1550fps/784ft-lbs, 17.5" penetration in clothed gel

Scary in all the right ways!!!

Good Shooting,
Craig
If the 125gr 357 Mag at 1450 is a legendary performer, imagine it at 1725! Good penetration, not too much, not too little and MASSIVE energy (for a pistol cartridge)
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Old 01-16-2010, 19:33   #39
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If the 125gr 357 Mag at 1450 is a legendary performer, imagine it at 1725! Good penetration, not too much, not too little and MASSIVE energy (for a pistol cartridge)
Yes the ballistics are impressive to me also, but the question in my mind is what's the advantage in normal civilian self-defense encounters over .357 Magnum (revolvers) or 10mm (and .45ACP, .40S&W/.357sig, 9mm in semi-autos) with that increased power and penetration?

It seems to me that any cartridge exceeding the listed calibers above are in the realm of specialized uses or military applications. I'd love to shoot a 9 X 25 Dillion just to experience it but I don't know of any realistic advantage it would provide. If I had a 10mm Glock I'd for sure have a conversion barrel but for self-defense purposes how could it be better than the 10mm?
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Old 01-16-2010, 20:07   #40
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Fastbolt, your contribution to this forum, and others that I know of, measurably raise the level of thoughtfulness and discourse. You are the kind of guy I like go shooting with. Take care,

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