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Old 02-13-2010, 20:42   #401
N/Apower
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
Because brain injury does not necessarily mean brain damage.

At this point for some I suppose there is truth in what you say about proving and disproving. Until someone does a more definitive study (like Dr. Courtney's but with a larger data set) for all to see who haven't seen it on their own I guess some people will be in the dark so to speak. A more definitive study also demonstrating more levels of BPW.

You mean except for Dr. Courtney's study?

Again, small data set or not, we do still have Dr. Courtney's study with lots of supporting evidence. More details and refined details would be nice, but we do have reasonably solid data to start out with.

Not so much when animals are used for the testing which they have been so far.

No it wasn't implied, or if it was I missed it. I don't know of anyone around here that supports the BPW theory in the sense they expect results 100% of the time.

No.

Permanent wound volume, blood volume loss, expansion, penetration, and crushed tissue are all a science of grays. Not on whether or not they probably will happen, but to what extent, shooting to shooting.

True but beside the point. I was point out a round that does penetrate far enough but was still generally labeled as a failure.

Right, most LE have left the various 115gr loads for heavier counterparts. Maybe it's just because you haven't been around here in caliber corner long enough yet, but there's been plenty discussed by LE and hunters on the 357SIG being clearly superior overall in terms of incapacitation over 9mm.

Interesting way of looking at it. (That was meant in a positive way.)

The data was young enough that the bullets in question were Hydra-Shoks.

The hydra-shock being what the data came from explains the dismal performance.

Look at all the police departments using the RA9T load and the success they have had with it. In fact, let me quote Dr. Roberts on that one. here is a post from him on another forum with regards to the 147gr 9mm loading (which has absolutely horrid "psi" numbers, btw).

"San Diego PD switched to the 9mm 147 gr JHP when their lighter weight, higher velocity 9mm 115 gr JHP bullets had several failures to penetrate deeply enough to create damage to vital organs in the torso and cause rapid incapacitation. The largest independently verified study of bullet penetration and expansion characteristics in living human tissue has shown the 9mm 147 gr JHP to offer acceptable performance in law enforcement lethal force confrontations. A senior criminalist with the San Diego P.D., Mr. Eugene J. Wolberg, has analyzed their 9 mm 147 gr JHP performance in 10% ordnance gelatin and compared the laboratory results with the actual terminal effects produced in human tissue in nearly 150 officer involved shootings with the San Diego Police Department. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, the majority of their bullets had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. This appears to be ideal performance from a 9mm. Other large California agencies using the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as Los Angeles PD, Los Angeles SO, San Jose PD, Santa Clara PD, Santa Clara SO, San Mateo SO, and San Francisco PD have had similar results. These and other California agencies successfully using the 9mm 147 gr JHP have thousands of officers with hundreds of officer involved shootings. Perhaps the documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas. Unfortunately, that conjecture does not stand up to scrutiny as the extensive Royal Canadian Mounted Police studies determined that the 9mm 147 gr JHP was the most effective load for the caliber. In addition, during the ammunition trials for the M11 pistol (military Sig P228) done at Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the Federal 147gr JHP (9MS) was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure 115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s. This same load was also procured by Crane for use by Tier One military units authorized to issue JHP ammunition with their 9 mm weapons, such as the Sig P226 and MP-5N."-Dr. Roberts
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Old 02-13-2010, 20:43   #402
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The point is that other things dictate the choices made.

And it's the HAGUE convention, not Geneva.
and we never signed it either.
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Old 02-13-2010, 20:46   #403
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N/Apower,

I read half of that link you posted the other night (so far), and I am going to finish it soon (work is keeping me busy this weekend). I have not seen that before, it is interesting, thanks for sharing it.
Any time. It is definitely old, and you can't gain specific info such as load-data, etc. but it is VERY well documented and shows phenomina rather well. I saw nothing in it that would lead me to belive that at velocities in the 'teens that we will see a whole lot of damage from any shock-waves. However, you may discover something in it that I did not. I find it hard to belive that that study would neglect to reveal brain-bleeds if they existed, though. It was pretty thorough, and from a time when knowledge and not political correctness and animal rights and all that was the goal of science.
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Old 02-13-2010, 20:47   #404
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Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
The hydra-shock being what the data came from explains the dismal performance.

Look at all the police departments using the RA9T load and the success they have had with it. In fact, let me quote Dr. Roberts on that one. here is a post from him on another forum with regards to the 147gr 9mm loading (which has absolutely horrid "psi" numbers, btw).

"San Diego PD switched to the 9mm 147 gr JHP when their lighter weight, higher velocity 9mm 115 gr JHP bullets had several failures to penetrate deeply enough to create damage to vital organs in the torso and cause rapid incapacitation. The largest independently verified study of bullet penetration and expansion characteristics in living human tissue has shown the 9mm 147 gr JHP to offer acceptable performance in law enforcement lethal force confrontations. A senior criminalist with the San Diego P.D., Mr. Eugene J. Wolberg, has analyzed their 9 mm 147 gr JHP performance in 10% ordnance gelatin and compared the laboratory results with the actual terminal effects produced in human tissue in nearly 150 officer involved shootings with the San Diego Police Department. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, the majority of their bullets had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. This appears to be ideal performance from a 9mm. Other large California agencies using the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as Los Angeles PD, Los Angeles SO, San Jose PD, Santa Clara PD, Santa Clara SO, San Mateo SO, and San Francisco PD have had similar results. These and other California agencies successfully using the 9mm 147 gr JHP have thousands of officers with hundreds of officer involved shootings. Perhaps the documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas. Unfortunately, that conjecture does not stand up to scrutiny as the extensive Royal Canadian Mounted Police studies determined that the 9mm 147 gr JHP was the most effective load for the caliber. In addition, during the ammunition trials for the M11 pistol (military Sig P228) done at Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the Federal 147gr JHP (9MS) was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure 115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s. This same load was also procured by Crane for use by Tier One military units authorized to issue JHP ammunition with their 9 mm weapons, such as the Sig P226 and MP-5N."-Dr. Roberts
I'll send you a PM about this in the next day or two, if you don't mind. I have a bit of info you may or may not believe with this study, and I'd like to share...
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Old 02-13-2010, 20:48   #405
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I'll send you a PM about this in the next day or two, if you don't mind. I have a bit of info you may or may not believe with this study, and I'd like to share...
Feel free. There is "always more to any story", imho.
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Old 02-13-2010, 20:58   #406
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Any time. It is definitely old, and you can't gain specific info such as load-data, etc. but it is VERY well documented and shows phenomina rather well. I saw nothing in it that would lead me to belive that at velocities in the 'teens that we will see a whole lot of damage from any shock-waves. However, you may discover something in it that I did not. I find it hard to belive that that study would neglect to reveal brain-bleeds if they existed, though. It was pretty thorough, and from a time when knowledge and not political correctness and animal rights and all that was the goal of science.
In the first half of that study they are basically examining permanent/temp cavitation, not TBI coorelation. Also, you have to remember they were using steel balls... bullet construction can change cavitation by rapidly "dumping" energy. The "steel bearing" idea was pretty cool for consistency sake... note how the internal disruption relocated the heart on one specimen... interesting! More later when I finish reading it.
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Old 02-13-2010, 21:39   #407
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Border Patrol has consistantly gone with the light/fast and had good results with it. They are the one agency I would cite as an example of consistant positive results with the light/fast stuff. However, I do belive they have switched to something heavier now.
I wasn't aware BP was known for light/fast. I haven't heard about the switch, not that I would have. Seems to me though there's something about some federal agencies piggy backing on each other for ammo purchases. Don't know if there's any truth to it. Along those lines though, they very well may shoot 180gr/165gr/155gr depending on what's on hand at the time. Again, don't really know.
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Correct, but I can tell you that Hal Price of ATK carries 9mm because he views the 357SIG as a negligible improvement. I can tell you that Evan Marshall also carries calibers other than 357SIG. What does Courtney carry? That I would like to know.
But where is his view derived from? Who the heck knows but him and maybe his closest friends. Could be all based on ballistic gel testing which won't tell him anything in reguard to incapacitation. BTW, does he load up with Gold Dots or HSTs?

uz2bUSMC was correct. Dr. Courtney does carry 357 SIG. Besides relating to his BPW research he also specifically mentioned how it did so much more visual peripheral damage beyond the permanent crush cavity compared to other subsonic loads. He had also mentioned that Amy Courtney said she wanted a carry load that did that. Whether she actually ever started carrying 357SIG or not I'm not positive, but I think she did.
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Those are product numbers corresponding to the two loads offered by Speer/ATK in 357SIG using Gold Dot projectiles.
Thank you.

The reduced penetration part doesn't make sense though unless they use 125gr bulets of different construction in each.

53918 that you say is the reduced penetration load used by Secret Service is rated by Speer for 1350fps from a 4" barrel.

54234 that you say TX DPS uses is rated by Speer for 1375fps from a 4" barrel.

That's like less than 20 ft-lbs difference if the two loads launch at those exact velocities. Sounds like a bunch of smoke-in-mirrors along with pulling the wool over someones eyes IMO. Either way I'm not buying into the reduced penetration part, nor did it appear Speer is selling them that way based on their website. 1350fps is the standard for 125gr from a 4" barrel for 357SIG. I wonder if TX DPS asked for all Speer could get out of it and still sell it while being able to sleep soundly at night with a clear conscience. Who knows, but the Secret Service certainly appears to using a more/less full power load.
Quote:
9BPLE has been shown to penetrate to, or VERY near to 12" in gel. I would wager it's psi is as high/higher than 127+P+.
Yea, so do 115gr Gold Dots. Still doesn't mean they meet all barrier requirements they want them to. I've seen varying results with Winchester's Ranger T series 115gr 9mm +P+ load in penetration depth of calibrated ballistic gel. Don't know why. Some show 8" penetration depth while others show more like 11".

Here's some numbers I figured up for someone else a while back including what to expect based on various amounts of possible fragmetation -

I found the FBI's clothed gel testing of all the 115gr 9mm rounds.

There were only two discrepencies. 1st, with the Federal load, the FBI got a velocity of 1237fps as opposed to the 1280fps. I'll show you the numbers at both velocities.

2nd, and I know you're not asking for it, but for Speers own Gold Dot load (115gr), the FBI showed a penetration depth of 22" in clothed gel with almost no expansion @ 1259fps. I don't know if the GD was improved since the testing was done by the FBI, but I'm much more in favor with Double Taps results with the same 115gr GD which, depending on velocity is 10" to 12.12". I'm figuring it at 12".


Results of FBI data at various levels of fragmentation:

Double Tap 9X25Dillon GD 115gr @ 1800fps, P = 10" (considered frag nasty)
0%frag= 1579psi, 75%frag= 2763psi, 90%frag= 3000psi

Double Tap 357SIG GD 115gr @ 1550fps, P = 12.12"
0%frag= 955psi, 50%frag= 1433psi, 75%frag= 1671psi


Winchester Ranger 115gr +P+ @ 1320fps, P = 10.25"
0%frag= 830psi, 50%frag= 1245psi, 75%frag= 1453psi

Cor-Bon 115gr +P @ 1317fps, P = 10.25"
0%frag= 826psi, 50%frag= 1239psi, 75%frag= 1446psi

Double Tap 115gr +P GD @ 1415fps, P = 12"
0%frag= 813psi, 25% frag= 1016psi, 50%frag= 1220psi

Federal 115gr +P??? @ 1237fps, P = 10.5"
0%frag= 732psi, 50%frag= 1098psi, 75%frag= 1281psi

Federal 115gr +P+??? Using the #s you gave me.
0%frag= 701psi, 50%frag= 1051psi, 75%frag= 1227psi


Remington 115gr +P+ @ 1221fps, P = 11"
0%frag= 662psi, 50%frag= 993psi, 75%frag= 1159psi

Speer 115gr GD @ 1259fps, P = 12"
0%frag= 645psi, 25%frag= 806psi, 50%frag= 968psi


The two in blue are just for fun, geez that 9X25 is wicked with a Gold Dot!!! In red are the numbers you supplied me with for Federal's load. (numbers from the person who PMed me for the info) The Federal load in black is based on the FBI's data. All are based on clothed gel.

As you can see, I listed them in order of highest to lowest psi. Assuming other factors haven't changed since the FBI tested the loads (don't know when they did) that should pretty much be where it's at.

Just to share, my favorite 10mm load (DT 155gr GD), in terms of BPW is basically equal to the DT 357SIG 115gr load, but gets another 1.5" penetration and expands similar to a 45cal HST.
Quote:
True enough, and I was not responding on behalf of KenB22, but with thoughts of my own.
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Old 02-13-2010, 22:14   #408
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The hydra-shock being what the data came from explains the dismal performance.
Simply from the standpoint it was notorious for clogging through clothing and then acting like FMJ, or is there more to it in what you're saying?
Quote:
Look at all the police departments using the RA9T load and the success they have had with it. In fact, let me quote Dr. Roberts on that one. here is a post from him on another forum with regards to the 147gr 9mm loading (which has absolutely horrid "psi" numbers, btw).
Notice also it was never compared to another load in another caliber, nor was anything mentioned in the way of quickness of incapacitation. I would question the average number of hits in proper shot location it took to incapacitate the average BG in the 100s of shootings that took place, of the BGs that didn't choose to stop fighting because they were hit once or twice.
Quote:
"San Diego PD switched to the 9mm 147 gr JHP when their lighter weight, higher velocity 9mm 115 gr JHP bullets had several failures to penetrate deeply enough to create damage to vital organs in the torso and cause rapid incapacitation.
But did they incapacitate better on average when they did penetrate deep enough? And what percentage of the time didn't they penetrate deep enough that all the crying was about in the first place? We'll never know. IOW who's to say there ever was a good reason for switching? I'm sure it wasn't like all the 147gr loads produced anything close to many one shot stops if the BG wasn't interested in stopping, right? Don't think anyone would disagree with me there.
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The largest independently verified study of bullet penetration and expansion characteristics in living human tissue has shown the 9mm 147 gr JHP to offer acceptable performance in law enforcement lethal force confrontations.
And just what the heck is their definition of acceptable performance? Obviously I'm not asking you personally, just saying.
Quote:
A senior criminalist with the San Diego P.D., Mr. Eugene J. Wolberg, has analyzed their 9 mm 147 gr JHP performance in 10% ordnance gelatin and compared the laboratory results with the actual terminal effects produced in human tissue in nearly 150 officer involved shootings with the San Diego Police Department. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, the majority of their bullets had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. This appears to be ideal performance from a 9mm.
Wow! Must have all been shots from an angle to the BG since the average human torso is only 9.5" deep. That said, how did they figure the rounds all penetrated those magical extra 3" - 5"? Besides that I have an extremely hard time believing ever single bullet expanded!!!
Quote:
Other large California agencies using the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as Los Angeles PD, Los Angeles SO, San Jose PD, Santa Clara PD, Santa Clara SO, San Mateo SO, and San Francisco PD have had similar results. These and other California agencies successfully using the 9mm 147 gr JHP have thousands of officers with hundreds of officer involved shootings. Perhaps the documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas.
What??? What does successfully using mean??? And what's with the unexplained West Coast failures??? Aside from that I still stand by what I said in the paragraph above this one.
Quote:
Unfortunately, that conjecture does not stand up to scrutiny as the extensive Royal Canadian Mounted Police studies determined that the 9mm 147 gr JHP was the most effective load for the caliber.
Most effective in what way for what risk assessments??? What studies did they do that determined what? See what I'm getting at here? We're to assume good info, which it may be, but if my risk assessments are different than their's..................is it in my best interest to choose the same load they hold in such supposedly high reguard?
Quote:
In addition, during the ammunition trials for the M11 pistol (military Sig P228) done at Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the Federal 147gr JHP (9MS) was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure 115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s.
AGAIN, from what I've already said, who says it's best for me? And what did they use for criteria to decide it was best for them? And what other options did they have outside of 9mm? Any? Guess we'll never know, and it's a bunch of info with too many holes in it to decide whether or not it's right for me or not. Of course I already know it isn't.
Quote:
This same load was also procured by Crane for use by Tier One military units authorized to issue JHP ammunition with their 9 mm weapons, such as the Sig P226 and MP-5N."-Dr. Roberts
Why? Guess we'll never know. I suspect Crane simply jumped in on the giant contract for cheap decent ammo. Not to mention they generally don't rely on there sidearms anyway.

No offense to you N/Apower, but I can pick up a gun rag if I want info that trivial with way to much undisclosed info for me to decide if it means anything good for me or not.
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Old 02-13-2010, 23:09   #409
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I wasn't aware BP was known for light/fast. I haven't heard about the switch, not that I would have. Seems to me though there's something about some federal agencies piggy backing on each other for ammo purchases. Don't know if there's any truth to it. Along those lines though, they very well may shoot 180gr/165gr/155gr depending on what's on hand at the time. Again, don't really know.

But where is his view derived from? Who the heck knows but him and maybe his closest friends. Could be all based on ballistic gel testing which won't tell him anything in reguard to incapacitation. BTW, does he load up with Gold Dots or HSTs?

He is the head of their LE division. You are right though, only he knows EXACTLY why. 124gr +P GDHP.

uz2bUSMC was correct. Dr. Courtney does carry 357 SIG. Besides relating to his BPW research he also specifically mentioned how it did so much more visual peripheral damage beyond the permanent crush cavity compared to other subsonic loads. He had also mentioned that Amy Courtney said she wanted a carry load that did that. Whether she actually ever started carrying 357SIG or not I'm not positive, but I think she did.

Thank you.

The reduced penetration part doesn't make sense though unless they use 125gr bulets of different construction in each.

They do. It yeilds roughly 1.5" penetration less, according to ATK.

53918 that you say is the reduced penetration load used by Secret Service is rated by Speer for 1350fps from a 4" barrel.

54234 that you say TX DPS uses is rated by Speer for 1375fps from a 4" barrel.

Correct, the 53918 uses a different projectile and .2g less powder.

That's like less than 20 ft-lbs difference if the two loads launch at those exact velocities. Sounds like a bunch of smoke-in-mirrors along with pulling the wool over someones eyes IMO. Either way I'm not buying into the reduced penetration part, nor did it appear Speer is selling them that way based on their website. 1350fps is the standard for 125gr from a 4" barrel for 357SIG. I wonder if TX DPS asked for all Speer could get out of it and still sell it while being able to sleep soundly at night with a clear conscience. Who knows, but the Secret Service certainly appears to using a more/less full power load.

Believe what you want.
My information (confirmed by Hal Price) is below in my message.

Yea, so do 115gr Gold Dots. Still doesn't mean they meet all barrier requirements they want them to. I've seen varying results with Winchester's Ranger T series 115gr 9mm +P+ load in penetration depth of calibrated ballistic gel. Don't know why. Some show 8" penetration depth while others show more like 11".

Here's some numbers I figured up for someone else a while back including what to expect based on various amounts of possible fragmetation -

I found the FBI's clothed gel testing of all the 115gr 9mm rounds.

There were only two discrepencies. 1st, with the Federal load, the FBI got a velocity of 1237fps as opposed to the 1280fps. I'll show you the numbers at both velocities.

2nd, and I know you're not asking for it, but for Speers own Gold Dot load (115gr), the FBI showed a penetration depth of 22" in clothed gel with almost no expansion @ 1259fps. I don't know if the GD was improved since the testing was done by the FBI, but I'm much more in favor with Double Taps results with the same 115gr GD which, depending on velocity is 10" to 12.12". I'm figuring it at 12".
ATK tweaks their ammo a lot/often from what I understand, but I do not know either. Federal's HST got tweaked often too. It was total junk when it first came out. Now it is quite reliable.


Results of FBI data at various levels of fragmentation:

Double Tap 9X25Dillon GD 115gr @ 1800fps, P = 10" (considered frag nasty)
0%frag= 1579psi, 75%frag= 2763psi, 90%frag= 3000psi

Double Tap 357SIG GD 115gr @ 1550fps, P = 12.12"
0%frag= 955psi, 50%frag= 1433psi, 75%frag= 1671psi

Winchester Ranger 115gr +P+ @ 1320fps, P = 10.25"
0%frag= 830psi, 50%frag= 1245psi, 75%frag= 1453psi

Cor-Bon 115gr +P @ 1317fps, P = 10.25"
0%frag= 826psi, 50%frag= 1239psi, 75%frag= 1446psi

Double Tap 115gr +P GD @ 1415fps, P = 12"
0%frag= 813psi, 25% frag= 1016psi, 50%frag= 1220psi

Federal 115gr +P??? @ 1237fps, P = 10.5"
0%frag= 732psi, 50%frag= 1098psi, 75%frag= 1281psi

Federal 115gr +P+??? Using the #s you gave me.
0%frag= 701psi, 50%frag= 1051psi, 75%frag= 1227psi

Remington 115gr +P+ @ 1221fps, P = 11"
0%frag= 662psi, 50%frag= 993psi, 75%frag= 1159psi

Speer 115gr GD @ 1259fps, P = 12"
0%frag= 645psi, 25%frag= 806psi, 50%frag= 968psi

The two in blue are just for fun, geez that 9X25 is wicked with a Gold Dot!!! In red are the numbers you supplied me with for Federal's load. (numbers from the person who PMed me for the info) The Federal load in black is based on the FBI's data. All are based on clothed gel.

As you can see, I listed them in order of highest to lowest psi. Assuming other factors haven't changed since the FBI tested the loads (don't know when they did) that should pretty much be where it's at.

Just to share, my favorite 10mm load (DT 155gr GD), in terms of BPW is basically equal to the DT 357SIG 115gr load, but gets another 1.5" penetration and expands similar to a 45cal HST.

Quote:
AFTE JOURNAL

Volume 33, Number 4, Fall 2001

From the Virginia Institute of Forensic Science and Medicine

Speer 357 SIG Cartridge Improvements
A Technical Report

Amy A. Zahradka, VIFSM Fellow '02 and Ann L. Davis, Virginia Division of Forensic Science
Richmond, Virginia

ABSTRACT
A local police department found that their stock of 357 SIG ammunition was not all the same, even though it had been purchased under identical specifications. This article identifies a new cartridge headstamp and examines the variations available in Speer 357 SIG Gold Dot 125 grain hollow point ammunition.

While working on a police shooting case, it came to our attention that the ammunition submitted as standard issue was different from the fired cartridge cases recovered at the scene. When the police department was questioned about the discrepancy, personnel discovered that their stock of ammunition was not all the same. Although Speer 357 SIG Gold Dot 125 grain hollow point ammunition was ordered, cartridges from box to box looked different and product numbers varied. After discussing the matter with a development engineer at Blount, it was found that up to four types might currently be available on distributors˙ shelves.

Product Improvements
An unusual semi-automatic handgun cartridge, the 357 SIG has a bottleneck case and operates at a high chamber pressure, up to 5,000 psi greater than some 357 Magnum loadings. Speer introduced their version in 1996 and made improvements in 1999 as a response to feedback they received.

It seems that the nickel-plated primers were causing a problem for some Sigarms handguns. During obturation, the high chamber pressure forced the primer cup into the breech face firing pin aperture. As the pistol unlocked, dropping the barrel, pieces of the cup metal occasionally sheared off into the recess. These shavings restricted the firing pin˙s movement, subsequently causing misfires. Speer reduced the size of the flash hole and switched to a plain brass primer to eliminate this problem.

Changes to the bullet were also incorporated. The bullet was given a larger nose radius to improve feeding, and the profile was changed to allow for more clearance in the chamber. The jacket thickness was increased by 0.007" to optimize performance through a wider range of velocities.

The improved ammunition was initially released on March 1, 1999 and is distinguished with a sideways "s" (called a "Lazy s") on the headstamp.

Two Product Numbers
Product number discrepancy is another issue. Two part numbers, 54234 and 53918 (or 23918 for boxes of 20), are currently available. Before the change in 1999, the only difference between them was that 54234 was mouth sealed. During the upgrade, it was decided that both should be mouth sealed to prevent bullet movement in the bottleneck case. At the same time, two new hollow point cavities were designed. The hollow point for 54234 was designed to duplicate the expansion and penetration characteristics of the original style, while 53918 was designed to decrease penetration by one to two inches. In order to make recoil more manageable, the powder charge in 53918 was reduced by 0.2 grains, resulting in an average velocity drop of 25 feet per second.

Conclusion
With both products available in either of two possible configurations, a total of four versions of the Speer 357 SIG Gold Dot 125 grain hollow point cartridges may still be in circulation. Although one type may not appear drastically different from another, it is important to understand the variations available.

Acknowledgment
We would like to extend a special thanks to Engineer Steve Moore of Blount for his assistance and cooperation in researching this article.

References
1. Product specifications and correspondence from Steve Moore, Development Engineer for Blount Inc. (CCI/Speer Division)
2. Barnes, F.C. and McPherson, M.L. (ed.), Cartridges of the World, 8th Edition, Krause Publications, Northfield, IL, 1997
^See above for information on the 2 loads we discussed.

Last edited by N/Apower; 02-13-2010 at 23:12..
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Old 02-14-2010, 00:59   #410
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Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
However, you may discover something in it that I did not. I find it hard to belive that that study would neglect to reveal brain-bleeds if they existed, though. It was pretty thorough, and from a time when knowledge and not political correctness and animal rights and all that was the goal of science.

The paper makes no mention of looking for minor TBI or any bleeding in the brain, excepting head shots. This means they were not looking for it. If they were looking for it and found none they would have reported the findings. Scientists don't report only positive data from an experiment, they also report any negative data. I'm not taking sides in the debate about BPW and TPI, just pointing out the study does not mean what you think it does.
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Old 02-14-2010, 01:36   #411
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NMGlocker's tag line:



Just so you know I disagree with that also. Hunter put a 45 slug though his head, indicating he was a real stable person. Also, having a son now in battle, I find it offensive. You should rather thank God for people like him that make the sacrifices that allow you to put such inane statements on your posts.
Considering the copious amounts of drugs and alcohol that Hunter S. Thompson consumed constantly throughout his entire lifetime, the bullet probably just bounced around inside his near empty, except for a few calcified neurons, thick-boned skull. He wasn't even that good of writer BEFORE his number dead brain cells surpassed the number of alive-yet-dim ones, as NMGlocker's tag line shows.

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Like I give a **** who likes me and who doesn't...

See above.
I don't give a **** what you agree or disagree with.
Nobody cares if you care, but thanks for letting us know.
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:38   #412
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I figure someone who wanted to us to think he was knowledgeable...
Your spelling may be OK, but your syntax leaves a lot to be desired.
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Old 02-14-2010, 02:46   #413
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Are you saying that when I repeatedly mispronounce "corpsman" as "corpseman" it betrays an immature intellect and/or lack of knowledge?
PURE GENIUS!!!
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Old 02-14-2010, 07:22   #414
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Personally, my issue is this:

Dr. Courtney's work suggests that a light, fast, violently fragmenting or expanding JHP is the way to go.

The Courtneys take the position that the more, faster, harder, etc. with kinetic energy transfer, the better--and I agree.

The problem arises when you step out into the real world.

You cannot have a 9mm/.45/357SIG, whatever, that violently fragments/expands and still penetrates 12" through a variety of barriers. It just doesn't work that way.

So what you have now, is a decision to make: Do you want to cause a TBI (assuming you can, which, every study shown shows that even if this IS possible, it is FAR from assured, even with high-powered rifles), or do you want to ensure 12" of penetration in your target?

I think we can all agree that if a bullet could violently expand and fragment and all that and still penetrate 12" after various barriers, that THAT is the round we would want. However, since we can't have that (yet, anyways), we are forced to choose.

C&C would champion the fragmenting or violently expanding bullet.

I would propose that this is a poor decision.

TBI is iffy, even if we accept that it is real. However, there is nothing "iffy" about the fact that numerous people have been killed because they used ammunition that would not penetrate deep enough to kill their assailant.

Officer Coates, FBI Miami shootout, a local cop in dallas using 55gr BST's trying to shoot a perp in a car, the list goes on and on and on.

Therefor, while I think the 357SIG's extra energy on soft tissue is certainly a good thing (how could it not be?), I don't think that one should use 115gr Corbon's, or that one should state that the 357SIG is "far superior" to a 147gr 9mm that expands properly.
Actually, I agree with all of that. I don't know if the fragmenting bullet idea is based on experimental data or the mathematics of retardation but I suspect a faulty application of mathematics. I feel very uneasy about using a bullet which undergoes random fragmentation and hence random penetration. The low level traumatic brain injury caused by a sufficiently high level of BPW is not only a probabilistic event, as are all pistol cartridge wounding mechanisms, but it can produce an incapacitation of variable duration. Since that duration can be quite short, in a life or death situation we need to have a second wounding mode which will produce more certain incapacitation before or shortly after any such brief incapacitation due to a BPW effect comes to an end.

This is not at all to say that even very brief rapid incapacitation is not valuable. Any period of time during which the BG is unable to shoot at you while you can continue to shoot at him is of great value. I just prefer a belt and braces approach if that is a meaningful phrase in American English. Perhaps it should be belt and suspenders!
Quote:

*With regards to damage of microvascular structures due to remote injury, if the retinal structures, and other various delicate vessels in the body are not damaged, I do not feel that the brain is at much risk with regard to any immediate effect. Kindof like worrying about blowing up the transmission in a corvette when doing a burn-out on a set of spare tires. When I start hearing about blindness and occular hemmhoraging due to GSW's to other parts of the body, then I will give this phenomina more thought.
I don't think this follows at all with regard to the eye. The minor TBI evidence shown by the Czech autopsy analysis shows damage close to the entry of the major blood vessels serving the brain. Since this opening is very small it acts like a source of origin of a BPW. The pressure of such an event will then diminish approximately according to the inverse square of the distance from the source. By the time it gets to the eye, through another small opening, nit is unlikely to produce observable damage since damage to the intervening parts of the brain are not observable.

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Old 02-14-2010, 09:31   #415
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Unlike paranormal claims, aspects of the published BPW theory are potentially falsifiable. In surviving patients, sensitive techniques exist for detecting mild TBI. Diffusion tensor imaging, functional tests, and biochemical tests are available for detecting mild traumatic brain injuries at levels lower than those that would lead to hemorrhaging or show up on CT scans. Moreover, in deceased patients/animal experiments, there are easily applicable histology techniques that also detect mild TBI at levels below easily visible hemorrhaging. A study could easily falsify the link between TBI and BPW by conducting the most sensitive available tests and failing to find TBI in cases where the theory predicts there should be TBI based on the BPW level and shot placement. However, the fact is, every study that has employed reasonably sensitive technique has found evidence of remote brain injury in cases where the theory predicts it. Studies have also documented remote wounding effects to other organs also attributed to BPW. In contrast, claims that TBI has not been found can never be backed up with facts showing that 1) researchers were looking for it with established techniques sufficiently sensitive to detect mild TBI and 2) in the case under discussion, a BPW was applied that is predicted to result in TBI.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Likewise, the link between BPW and rapid incapacitation is potentially falsifiable. One simply needs to conduct an incapacitation study comparing two loads with comparable crushed tissue, but significantly different pressure waves. The Fackler model predicts that given comparable shot placement and adequate penetration, average incapacitation will depend only on crushed tissue volume. Dr. Fackler originated the idea that one could disprove the proposed link between incapacitation and pressure wave effects by simply shooting deer with two different handgun loads that created comparable volumes of crushed tissue, but different amounts of energy transfer. Of course, when the experiment was actually performed, the data supported rather than falsified the link between BPW and incapacitation. Furthermore, every published data set that contains a quantitative measure of incapacitation and allows BPW magnitude to be estimated shows a strong correlation between BPW magnitude and incapacitation. Studies recommending low BPW loads invariably report results of functional and gelatin testing (Crane) or penetration/expansion in autopsy measurements (Wolberg) rather than data that is an actual measure of rapid incapacitation. Most of these studies are also pre-date the availability of .357 Sig and .40 S&W wounding and incapacitation data.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Harvey’s studies in the 1940’s were important in that they recognized the ballistic pressure wave and quantified it with both electronic and optical techniques:
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
It is not generally recognized that when a high velocity missile strikes the body and moves through soft tissues, pressures develop which are measured in thousands of atmospheres. Actually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively stow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive temporary cavity, formed behind the missile. Such pressure changes appear to be responsible for what is known to hunters as hydraulic shock--a hydraulic transmission of energy which is believed to cause instant death of animals hit by high velocity bullets (Powell (1)). The magnitude and time relations of these pressures have recently been recorded by the Princeton Biology Group, using tourmaline piezoelectric crystalgauges (Harvey et a/. (2)). The part they play in wounding has also been analyzed (Harvey eta/. (3)).<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

The shock wave, which originates when the missile strikes the skin, moves through the body with high velocity. Since the propagation of shock waves through body tissues has not been previously investigated, we have obtained data pertaining to them by a relatively simple method of study, not requiring the complicated electronic amplifiers necessary for the tourmaline crystal recording. This method involves photographing the shadow of the wave by a high intensity microsecond spark such as is used for study of shock waves generated by bullets moving through air.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

However, the Harvey studies made no attempt to look for microscopic neurological damage.<o:p></o:p>
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Old 02-14-2010, 11:00   #416
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Actually, I agree with all of that. I don't know if the fragmenting bullet idea is based on experimental data or the mathematics of retardation but I suspect a faulty application of mathematics. I feel very uneasy about using a bullet which undergoes random fragmentation and hence random penetration. The low level traumatic brain injury caused by a sufficiently high level of BPW is not only a probabilistic event, as are all pistol cartridge wounding mechanisms, but it can produce an incapacitation of variable duration. Since that duration can be quite short, in a life or death situation we need to have a second wounding mode which will produce more certain incapacitation before or shortly after any such brief incapacitation due to a BPW effect comes to an end.

This is not at all to say that even very brief rapid incapacitation is not valuable. Any period of time during which the BG is unable to shoot at you while you can continue to shoot at him is of great value. I just prefer a belt and braces approach if that is a meaningful phrase in American English. Perhaps it should be belt and suspenders!

I don't think this follows at all with regard to the eye. The minor TBI evidence shown by the Czech autopsy analysis shows damage close to the entry of the major blood vessels serving the brain. Since this opening is very small it acts like a source of origin of a BPW. The pressure of such an event will then diminish approximately according to the inverse square of the distance from the source. By the time it gets to the eye, through another small opening, nit is unlikely to produce observable damage since damage to the intervening parts of the brain are not observable.

English

Fine...lets go...down.

Kidneys. Kidneys are very sensetive to blood-pressure, and are almost equidistant from the brain, using the chest. Nice straight-shot to the kidneys, anatomically, as far as blood-flow goes as well.

I would propose that any wave that damaged the brain would also damage the structures of the kidney, causing destruction of the glomeruli basemement membranes and resulting in protenuria and/or hematuria and a decrease in GFR.

My point is this: If we are asserting that brain-damage/injury/whatever car occur, then we are asserting that there is enough force that other sensetive structures would be damaged as well.

Maybe I can propose my own theory about BPW and kidney damage. At least THAT could be accurately measured as GFR could be measured, the animal shot, and GFR measured again. Same for substances in the urine.

*Maybe someone already has...if so...link?

What say you?

Last edited by N/Apower; 02-14-2010 at 11:02..
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Old 02-14-2010, 13:34   #417
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They do. It yeilds roughly 1.5" penetration less, according to ATK.

Correct, the 53918 uses a different projectile and .2g less powder.

Believe what you want.
My information (confirmed by Hal Price) is below in my message.

ATK tweaks their ammo a lot/often from what I understand, but I do not know either. Federal's HST got tweaked often too. It was total junk when it first came out. Now it is quite reliable.

^See above for information on the 2 loads we discussed.
TYVM for the info.

My best guess (for penetration depth in clothed gel) for BPW numbers for the two at 1.5" difference in penetration depth and 25 fps difference in velocity comes to -

Secret Service 357SIG load - 773 psi (figured 12.5" penetration depth)
Texas DPS 357SIG load - 716 psi (figured 14" penetration depth)

Of course neither assumes any fragmentation. If the SS load bullet, because of possibly slightly lighter construction, frags even 10%, then it's PBPW goes up to approx 850 psi.

Interesting.


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Old 02-14-2010, 13:46   #418
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The paper makes no mention of looking for minor TBI or any bleeding in the brain, excepting head shots. This means they were not looking for it. If they were looking for it and found none they would have reported the findings. Scientists don't report only positive data from an experiment, they also report any negative data. I'm not taking sides in the debate about BPW and TPI, just pointing out the study does not mean what you think it does.
I'm really having a hard time believing brain-bleeds will turn up very often if at all from BPW resulting from bullets entering the thoratic cavity from most common SD handgun loads. But I unequivocally believe handgun loads producing enough PBPW will aid in incapactating BGs and animals in less time, some of the time, than the average shot to the vitals (outside of direct CNS hits) without BPW effects taking effect at all.


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Old 02-14-2010, 14:02   #419
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Originally Posted by swede1945 View Post
Unlike paranormal claims, aspects of the published BPW theory are potentially falsifiable. In surviving patients, sensitive techniques exist for detecting mild TBI. Diffusion tensor imaging, functional tests, and biochemical tests are available for detecting mild traumatic brain injuries at levels lower than those that would lead to hemorrhaging or show up on CT scans. Moreover, in deceased patients/animal experiments, there are easily applicable histology techniques that also detect mild TBI at levels below easily visible hemorrhaging. A study could easily falsify the link between TBI and BPW by conducting the most sensitive available tests and failing to find TBI in cases where the theory predicts there should be TBI based on the BPW level and shot placement. However, the fact is, every study that has employed reasonably sensitive technique has found evidence of remote brain injury in cases where the theory predicts it. Studies have also documented remote wounding effects to other organs also attributed to BPW. In contrast, claims that TBI has not been found can never be backed up with facts showing that 1) researchers were looking for it with established techniques sufficiently sensitive to detect mild TBI and 2) in the case under discussion, a BPW was applied that is predicted to result in TBI.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Likewise, the link between BPW and rapid incapacitation is potentially falsifiable. One simply needs to conduct an incapacitation study comparing two loads with comparable crushed tissue, but significantly different pressure waves. The Fackler model predicts that given comparable shot placement and adequate penetration, average incapacitation will depend only on crushed tissue volume. Dr. Fackler originated the idea that one could disprove the proposed link between incapacitation and pressure wave effects by simply shooting deer with two different handgun loads that created comparable volumes of crushed tissue, but different amounts of energy transfer. Of course, when the experiment was actually performed, the data supported rather than falsified the link between BPW and incapacitation. Furthermore, every published data set that contains a quantitative measure of incapacitation and allows BPW magnitude to be estimated shows a strong correlation between BPW magnitude and incapacitation. Studies recommending low BPW loads invariably report results of functional and gelatin testing (Crane) or penetration/expansion in autopsy measurements (Wolberg) rather than data that is an actual measure of rapid incapacitation. Most of these studies are also pre-date the availability of .357 Sig and .40 S&W wounding and incapacitation data.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Harvey’s studies in the 1940’s were important in that they recognized the ballistic pressure wave and quantified it with both electronic and optical techniques:
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
It is not generally recognized that when a high velocity missile strikes the body and moves through soft tissues, pressures develop which are measured in thousands of atmospheres. Actually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively stow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive temporary cavity, formed behind the missile. Such pressure changes appear to be responsible for what is known to hunters as hydraulic shock--a hydraulic transmission of energy which is believed to cause instant death of animals hit by high velocity bullets (Powell (1)). The magnitude and time relations of these pressures have recently been recorded by the Princeton Biology Group, using tourmaline piezoelectric crystalgauges (Harvey et a/. (2)). The part they play in wounding has also been analyzed (Harvey eta/. (3)).<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

The shock wave, which originates when the missile strikes the skin, moves through the body with high velocity. Since the propagation of shock waves through body tissues has not been previously investigated, we have obtained data pertaining to them by a relatively simple method of study, not requiring the complicated electronic amplifiers necessary for the tourmaline crystal recording. This method involves photographing the shadow of the wave by a high intensity microsecond spark such as is used for study of shock waves generated by bullets moving through air.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

However, the Harvey studies made no attempt to look for microscopic neurological damage.<o:p></o:p>
Your posts are very informative.

Thank you for posting. I look forward to your future posts.


Good Shooting,
Craig
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Old 02-14-2010, 14:15   #420
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Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
Fine...lets go...down.

Kidneys. Kidneys are very sensetive to blood-pressure, and are almost equidistant from the brain, using the chest. Nice straight-shot to the kidneys, anatomically, as far as blood-flow goes as well.

I would propose that any wave that damaged the brain would also damage the structures of the kidney, causing destruction of the glomeruli basemement membranes and resulting in protenuria and/or hematuria and a decrease in GFR.

My point is this: If we are asserting that brain-damage/injury/whatever car occur, then we are asserting that there is enough force that other sensetive structures would be damaged as well.

Maybe I can propose my own theory about BPW and kidney damage. At least THAT could be accurately measured as GFR could be measured, the animal shot, and GFR measured again. Same for substances in the urine.

*Maybe someone already has...if so...link?

What say you?
My beef with that is you're assuming BPW promotes bleeding in the brain. But like I assert, if it doesn't, at least not always, then you very well wouldn't find bleeding to the kidneys either. If I'm wrong in what you're thinking, what sort of damage would you think you might see to the kidneys?

Obviously I have to assume you aren't attibuting any possible damage to kidneys by BPW to aid in incapactation, just that you're correlating damage happening to the brain to also showing up in the kidneys in general.

But don't you feel it's possible for the brain to be scrambled for a few seconds without physical injury showing up that would last any longer than the brain may use to fix itself?

Like dizzyness for example. Some people stand up too quick or however it works and feel dizzy for a few moments. You probably know if that has anything to do with the brain or not. I don't. Either way I'ld see that as a temporarily incapactating effect. Maybe BPW can cause something along those lines, or similar but different. Heck if I know, just throwing it out there.

Either way, simple things can happen to make us feel disoriented that subside rather quickly on their own and leave no sign behind they ever happened. Maybe BPW effects sometimes happen the in similar type ways. Thoughts?

Just so no one freaks out here, I make no attempt at answering for English. I'm interested to see what he replies back also. Just wanted to throw my own thoughts out there too.


Craig
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