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Old 02-16-2010, 18:55   #461
NMGlocker
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Additional visible wound damage?
WTF is that and what does it have to do with lethality?
12ga. #7 birdshot makes an awesomely gruesome "visible wound" when compared to 12ga. #00 Buckshot, but I don't see anyone but the village idiot claiming it's a better man stopper.
It all comes down to poking a hole in human flesh, and whether you believe it or not all service caliber handguns do about the same (mediocre) job of poking said holes.
There is no magic bullet/caliber, deal with it and train accordingly.
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:21   #462
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Are you aware of the additional visible wound damage done in human/animal flesh with a 125gr 357SIG bullet @ 1350fps - 1450fps compared to a 147gr 9mm load at 800fps - 900fps? It's shocking. No pun intended.
According to ME's, I have heard it doesn't matter, visibly. Tissue is elastic, and 1400fps is going to look identical to 800fps, provided the slug is the same size and there is no fragmentation.

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Old 02-16-2010, 19:36   #463
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It all comes down to poking a hole in human flesh, and whether you believe it or not all service caliber handguns do about the same (mediocre) job of poking said holes.
There is no magic bullet/caliber, deal with it and train accordingly.
What are you doing in Caliber Corner? If they are all the same for you, I would think you would find more interesting reading elsewhere.
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:39   #464
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According to ME's, I have heard it doesn't matter, visibly. Tissue is elastic, and 1400fps is going to look identical to 800fps, provided the slug is the same size and there is no fragmentation.
So I would guess a large diameter arrow with a field tip would be just as effective. Although you maybe just speaking about visibly and not effectiveness.
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:50   #465
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Originally Posted by NMGlocker View Post
I did not know that pressure ratings were in "feet per second", I always though it was "pounds per square inch".

SAAMI pressure ratings for the 9mm are 35000 PSI for standard and 38500 for +P, there is no spec for +P+.

You don't own an ammo lab?
From your post, I could have sworn you were some kind of ballistics/physics expert.
I just assumed since I was using your bullet example that you would make the giant leap. Probably not possible for a one eyed man. I will type it real slow this time and not leave out any words - a standard pressure 124 gr 9mm cartridge bullet can go 1150 fps. It is strange how you did not comment on the actual reply, but would prefer to snipe.
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:56   #466
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So I would guess a large diameter arrow with a field tip would be just as effective. Although you maybe just speaking about visibly and not effectiveness.
Elephants have been killed with a bow and arrow before. I have not heard of an elephant being harvested with a 9mm.

Just a worthless tid-bit ^

I was referring to what was stated about visible damage. Would an arrow be just as effective? Only if it destroyed more vessels/structures. I will take the pistol though. Hard to carry a bow around all day.

The reason I say this is because I have yet to see evidence that anything but the amount of tissue destroyed/blood lost matters with regards to incapacitation when the psychological factor is not at work. I spent some time on Lightfighter reading the accounts of all the guys who have shot dogs, etc. (usually pits during drug raids) and the .40 180gr and the 357SIG both seemed to do about the same. No dogs "dropped on the spot", all were reported to have ran a short distance and died.

Further, I read some information about the 125gr .357 Magnum. At least one of the agencies that replaced it with the .40 have reported better results across the board with the .40.

When on agency that used the .357 magnum in it's hay day did so well, they looking into the circumstances. They saw that most of the spectacular results from the .357 occured at close range, and at night. If you have ever fired a .357 using a hot 125gr load, you know how that looks at night. They postulated that the glorious effectiveness came from the psychological effect of seeing that massive ball of fire/concussion and realising one had been hit by the projectile it launched.

I can indeed see this causing a psychological stop more than a 147gr 9mm would. By comparison, the bang/flash is a joke.

Last edited by N/Apower; 02-16-2010 at 20:03..
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:57   #467
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I just assumed since I was using your bullet example that you would make the giant leap. Probably not possible for a one eyed man. I will type it real slow this time and not leave out any words - a standard pressure 124 gr 9mm cartridge bullet can go 1150 fps. It is strange how you did not comment on the actual reply, but would prefer to snipe.

I have observed that character assassination plays a large role in technical discussions on Glock Talk. Lots of people have left this forum because of it, however, I enjoy reading the views of others, throwing in my .02, and have some thick skin and a little time to burn for the moment, so I enjoy it.
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:21   #468
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I just have a hard time believing that velocity has no meaning in stopping effectiveness and that a 124 gr standard velocity 9mm would have the same ability to incapacitate as a 1425 fps 124 gr bullet if they expaned to the same diameter and penetrated the same. Heck, I am putting away my G32 and getting out my Kel-Tec 3AT 380 acp.
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:31   #469
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I just have a hard time believing that velocity has no meaning in stopping effectiveness and that a 124 gr standard velocity 9mm would have the same ability to incapacitate as a 1425 fps 124 gr bullet if they expaned to the same diameter and penetrated the same. Heck, I am putting away my G32 and getting out my Kel-Tec 3AT 380 acp.

I found this interesting: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=47371
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:56   #470
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Originally Posted by NMGlocker View Post
Additional visible wound damage?
WTF is that and what does it have to do with lethality?
WTF is that = more bloodshot meat futher out from the permanent crush cavity, and if bone is encountered, bone fragments found in tissue further from the permanent crush cavity.

Who cares what it has to do with lethality? Lethality hasn't even been discussed.
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:57   #471
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According to ME's, I have heard it doesn't matter, visibly. Tissue is elastic, and 1400fps is going to look identical to 800fps, provided the slug is the same size and there is no fragmentation.
What are ME's?

My first guess is muzzle energies. But I'm not sure that's your meaning.
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Old 02-16-2010, 20:59   #472
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What are ME's?

My first guess is muzzle energies. But I'm not sure that's your meaning.
Medical Examiners. Like the guy that everyone here gave so much flack when he told them what he saw in the real world when it didn't jive with what they THOUGHT happened. What was his SN "Lookin4U" ?
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:10   #473
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I can see that thread being looked at positively for different reasons. Were you making a specific point by posting it?

Otherwise, DocGKR does make the case that 9mm FMJ is more effective than 380 FMJ IF anything more than flesh was encountered like bone or an intermediate barrier.

And of course he goes on to add that 9mm JHP is leaps and bounds better than 380 JHP.

And that he'ld never willingly carry 380 in any form over 9mm in any form.


The most interesting thing I took from it (which I agree with) is where DocGKR says; 9 mm M882 ball has one of the worst reputations for effectiveness of any 9 mm ammo.

The reason I bring that up is because we have a good handful of GTers who insist on carrying 9mm ball/FMJ.


Again, what was it you specifically found interesting?
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:15   #474
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What effect does a large temporary stretch cavity have as compared to a small temporary stretch if the bullets expanded and penetrated the same? 357 sigs and 10mm have been known to break the wooden frames that hold gelatin blocks. Most blocks now are free standing.
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:19   #475
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I can see that thread being looked at positively for different reasons. Were you making a specific point by posting it?

Otherwise, DocGKR does make the case that 9mm FMJ is more effective than 380 FMJ IF anything more than flesh was encountered like bone or an intermediate barrier.

And of course he goes on to add that 9mm JHP is leaps and bounds better than 380 JHP.

And that he'ld never willingly carry 380 in any form over 9mm in any form.


The most interesting thing I took from it (which I agree with) is where DocGKR says; 9 mm M882 ball has one of the worst reputations for effectiveness of any 9 mm ammo.

The reason I bring that up is because we have a good handful of GTers who insist on carrying 9mm ball/FMJ.


Again, what was it you specifically found interesting?
The wound from the .380 would be visibly identical to the wound from the 9mm, even though several hundred fps difference exist between the two. I found it relevant. Obviously a JHP has more redarding forces against it, and thus exerts more force on the medium it is passing through, BUT, if we carry the lesson over, the 357SIG should not show any difference in wounding (visibly at least) with the 124gr standard-pressure, or even 147gr 9mm, being as they expand and penetrate almost identically.
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:21   #476
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What effect does a large temporary stretch cavity have as compared to a small temporary stretch if the bullets expanded and penetrated the same? 357 sigs and 10mm have been known to break the wooden frames that hold gelatin blocks. Most blocks now are free standing.

I do find that interesting, however, there is something that people who view this do not take into consideration often times. The thoracic cavity is not homogenous like gelatin blocks are. There exists many "partitions", as it were, and lots of empty/dead space. Energy is not distributed nearly as efficiently through the thoracic cavity as it is through a gelatin block.
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:26   #477
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Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
According to ME's, I have heard it doesn't matter, visibly. Tissue is elastic, and 1400fps is going to look identical to 800fps, provided the slug is the same size and there is no fragmentation.
Quote:
Medical Examiners. Like the guy that everyone here gave so much flack when he told them what he saw in the real world when it didn't jive with what they THOUGHT happened. What was his SN "Lookin4U" ?
I've seen pics that say different, not to mention what the person who saw first hand had to say. Clearly a difference. Not to mention the testimony of others here on GT based on animals.

Don't know what the medical examiners think they claim to have seen, but I have yet to hear of a medical examiner who had any clue what handgun round a BG (or GG I guess) was shot with and only had a clue from recovered bullets where they could simply measure caliber size if they cared to. I say this based on what others have said who claim to be in a similar medical background profession as you.

Are these special MEs you refer to that are privy to more info than the average emergency room visits encountered?


Is there anyone out there that can verify what I'm saying about more visible wound damage in animals when using 357SIG over 9mm? Preferably when comparing 125gr 357SIG loads @ 1350fps - 1450fps to 147gr 9mm loads at 800fps - 900fps. I only put this in bold and larger type for the idea that maybe more will notice it than may have otherwise.
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:30   #478
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I've seen pics that say different, not to mention what the person who saw first hand had to say. Clearly a difference. Not to mention the testimony of others here on GT based on animals.

Don't know what the medical examiners think they claim to have seen, but I have yet to hear of a medical examiner who had any clue what handgun round a BG (or GG I guess) was shot with and only had a clue from recovered bullets where they could simply measure caliber size if they cared to. I say this based on what others have said who claim to be in a similar medical background profession as you.

Are these special MEs you refer to that are privy to more info than the average emergency room visits encountered?


Is there anyone out there that can verify what I'm saying about more visible wound damage in animals when using 357SIG over 9mm? Preferably when comparing 125gr 357SIG loads @ 1350fps - 1450fps to 147gr 9mm loads at 800fps - 900fps. I only put this in bold and larger type for the idea that maybe more will notice it than may have otherwise.
You need to compare apples to apples here. I believe the story we read about the 357SIG hitting the dog and blowing it's stuffin's out involved a frangible bullet (Corbon) that expanded violently. 147gr 9mm's are normally not frangible. So we need to compare apples to apples if we are to say "The velocity made a difference". Say, gold-dot to gold-dot, or hst to hst, or something of the like. I rummaged around the 'net looking for some pix, and will continue to rummage.

*Frangible, I don't mean like a Glaser, or Sinterfire, I mean as in, known for fragmenting. I just wanted to clear that up.

The ME I referred to were those referenced by Lookin4u in a past thread here. Huge thread, surely you remember it? Shouldn't be hard to find.

ETA: Here is what I found of interest:

Quote:
FWIW, the 9mm XTP at about 1240 ft/sec, as well as the Winchester Ranger and 230-gr. Golden Sabers worked consistently well, but to my eyes none performed better than the other. If viewing only the javelina at the moment it was shot, I wouldn't have been able to say whether it had been shot with 9mm or 45 ammo!
Quote:
The Texas whitetail deer I've shot with 9mm, 38 Super, .44 Special, .45 Colt and .45 ACP have been pretty uniform in their responses to being shot. A few were instantly incapacitated and never got to their feet; they kicked a bit and then were done. Most jumped, ran a few yards and then keeled over. This is what I've seen time and again with these calibers. I have not used the big magnums considered more appropriate for this type activity so I cannot accurately comment on them. The interesting thing to me is that these smallish 110-lb. animals reacted essentially the same way whether hit with a 124-gr. 9mm XTP at 1240 ft/sec or a handloaded 255-gr. CSWC @ 900 ft/sec from the .45 Colt revolver! Those shot with 230-gr. Golden Sabers handloaded to about 950 ft/sec reacted most similarly to the ones shot with my 38 Super's 147-gr. Golden Saber at just under 1200 ft/sec!
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm

Read the whole article, it's pretty interesting, I think, and the man has obviously "been there, done that" with regards to shooting lots of animals with zippy .355's and slow .45's.

What I personally drew from it:

We know the 9mm and the .45 do NOT create identical permanent wound-cavities. The .45 creates a larger one. Yet the 9mm performed just the same as the .45. Why? Velocity? TC made up for the smaller permanent cavity? I won't even pretend to know. However, these experiences also seem to discount BPW having any effect, at least that this author saw. If a lightweight animal being hit with a zippy round reacted the same as a lightweight animal being hit with a 900fps hard cast bullet, I would say BPW was not at play here.

Included is a picture of a wound from a .45 and from a 127 +P+. Sadly, they are close-ups and you can't tell much.

Again, from the article:
Quote:
Yet, on animals from the size of Texas whitetail deer to javelina, I have seen the high-velocity 9mm JHP in +P trim demonstrate better than expected "stopping" and "killing power." This includes both 115-gr. +P loads from Corbon as well as the Federal +P+ 115-gr. law enforcement loads. Yet neither penetrates the mandated 12" minimum in ballistic gelatin. The Corbon frequently hits around 1400 ft/sec from my Hi Powers with the Federal version about 50 to 60 ft/sec behind. Either of these two 9mm rounds get around 10" penetration in gelatin, falling shy of the FBI's original penetration requirements. At the same time, in the animals I've shot with these loads, damage has been more than expected
I don't think this means they did BETTER than the .45, but that they did as well (reading the whole article), and he could not account for it. However, I would hazard a guess that the damage he referred to these rounds causing was a factor of fragmentation and not necessarily velocity. Ergo, chalk it up to bullet design instead of velocity (I guess you could argue that velocity caused fragmentation, but then, one could just argue in favor of using Glasers or something, not something I would do.). As he said later in the article, a 185gr Corbon did the same thing.

IN THE END

It seems that regardless of the mechanism used, 9mm, .45, .40, and .357 SIG all do about the same darn thing when you use the right ammo. You pays your moneys, you makes your choice, and you do your damndest to defend it on some random internet forum.

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Old 02-16-2010, 21:31   #479
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According to ME's, I have heard it doesn't matter, visibly. Tissue is elastic, and 1400fps is going to look identical to 800fps, provided the slug is the same size and there is no fragmentation.
TOTALLY wrong. If you were to examine the wound the 1400 fps round makes compared to the 800 fps one in feral hogs of similar size, you would understand...HUGE difference.
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Old 02-16-2010, 21:33   #480
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Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
You need to compare apples to apples here. I believe the story we read about the 357SIG hitting the dog and blowing it's stuffin's out involved a frangible bullet (Corbon) that expanded violently. 147gr 9mm's are normally not frangible. So we need to compare apples to apples if we are to say "The velocity made a difference". Say, gold-dot to gold-dot, or hst to hst, or something of the like. I rummaged around the 'net looking for some pix, and will continue to rummage.

*Frangible, I don't mean like a Glaser, or Sinterfire, I mean as in, known for fragmenting. I just wanted to clear that up.
I'm not refering to anyone comparing a frangible (or any bullet that even frags much all if any) bullet for either load. XTPs were included in what I've seen/been told of.
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