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Old 12-08-2012, 12:21   #651
T-Rod45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
just how many police departments use the .357 Sig?
Here is a list compiled from another thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by PattonT View Post
Alameda County
Delaware State Police (First to adopt the 357 SIG)
Dallas, Texas Police
Federal Air Marshals
Federal Protective Services (FPS) Special Agents for General Services Administration (GSA) - P229
Keizer Police Department, Oregonhttp://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19675788#post19675788
La Porte County Indiana Sheriff's Department
Las Vegas Metro Police (allowed use of)
Liberty Twp Police Dept, Ohio
Maine Aroostook County Sheriff's Office
Maine Game Wardens (P226)
Maricopa County [Phoenix] Arizona Sheriff's Office/MCSO
Montcalm County (Michigan) Sheriff's Office
Montana State Police
New Jersey Division of Fish & Game
New Mexico State Police
Niles Police Dept, Ohio
Northwood Police Dept, ND
NC Highway Patrol
NC Wake County Sheriff's Department
NC Wildlife Enforcement Officers
Nueces County Sheriff Department, Texas (Sigpro)
Oakland County Sheriff's Dept, Michigan
Oklahoma Hwy patrol
Orange Police Dept, CT (sig pro, SP2340 .357)
Orlando PD (plainclothes officers)
Oxford, Mississippi
Richmond, Virginia
Rocky Mount Police Dept, Rocky Mount, NC
Springfield, IL
Union County Sheriff's Office, Marysville, Ohio (Glock 31)
Texas, DPS
United States (GSA) - Office of Inspector General (OIG) Special Agents - P229
United States Secret Service
Virginia State Police

Agencies using 357 Sig in Tennessee

THP: Glock 31& G33
TWRA: Glock 31
Bartlett PD: Sig 226 357Sig
Hamblen Co: Glock 32
Lawrence Co: Glock 31
Millan PD: Glock 31
Pleasant View PD: ? 357 Sig
Springfield PD: ? 357Sig
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Old 12-08-2012, 13:11   #652
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PA Wildlife agents carried G31. Don't know if they still do?
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Old 12-08-2012, 14:36   #653
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I have a friend on the Tx DPS and he likes the .357SIG, but, he'd rather the 9mm or .40 strictly for the fact that 357SIG costs so much to practice with, whereas 9mm/40 is more affordable. As far as terminal performance, they're all happy with it.
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Old 12-08-2012, 17:57   #654
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Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
I think the .357 Sig outperforms the 9mm in any of it's + formats, regardless of how many of those +s you tack onto the 9mm.
Your definitely correct. The case capacity of the .357 Sig is much larger than the 9x19.
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Old 12-10-2012, 17:15   #655
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Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman View Post
I seriously doubt a hot 125gr 357 sig @1400fps is going to make any difference over a 155gr 40S&W @1300fps. I'll take a larger, heavier bullet going fast over a smaller/lighter bullet going a little faster. Really if anything its a wash, but the 40 is more versatile in loads and bullet weights. What evidence do you have showing the 357 sig as being any better?

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Been reading here for some time and thought Id post.
I used to carry a 45 acp and 44 mag back in the 80's
I never could understand why the one shot stats of the 357 was the best
The 9, 40, 45 and 357 sig are all lethal, would not feel under-gunned with either of them. and would not want to be shot by none of them or anything

If you look at paper ballistics or gel tests, there is not much difference.
But if you look at REAL WORLD results, or ask police who have used them, then there may be some difference.

The King of Kings the 357 magnum 4 inch revolver with either 125 Federal or Remington JHP? at 1450 fps

what did it having going for it?
.
and what makes the "lightning bolt effect"?

Good bullet expansion
Good penetration
and super sonic speeds


Bullet speed while going out of the end of a barrel it totally different that the speed of it going through a human body.

I think the "lightning bolt effect" is a combination of a bullet that has expanded and is still moving OVER the speed of sound while traveling through a attackers body.

a bullet that is still breaking the sound barrier while it is going through vital organs of the body. and the speed of sound is around 1100 fps

the combination of a good expanding bullet with at least a .140 sectional density and moving around 1400 fps from the muzzle seems to be the ticket.

This has PROVEN to work in REAL LIFE.

We know bullets start slowing down dramatically when they hit clothing and flesh.
a bullet has clothing, layers of fat and muscle to go through before reaching vital organs.
it would seem a good expanding bullet at 1350-1450 fps and enough sectional density will still have the sonic crack inside the vital organs.

Too little bullet sectional density and the bullet slows down to under the speed of sound before it hits vital organs, too little velocity and not enough momentum to have bullet keep hyper velocity into vital organs.

the 155 grain 40 caliber bullet has a sectional density around .140.
but the best 40 S&W can launch a 155 is at 1300 fps

Same for 9mm +p+ 124 at 1300 fps.

the bullet may stay hyper into the inch of so of fat and inch of muscle but not into the vital organs.
This all of course can change depending on the size of the person.

the 9mm +p+ 115 at 1400 fps. it has the velocity but the shorter bullet loses too much velocity too quick
Long bullet lose less velocity and penetrate deeper.

the 9mm +p+, 40 S&W and .45 acp can not get 1400 fps with a good expanding bullet that has a Sd of at least .140.
(not out of barrels of 4 to 4.5 inches)

the 357 sig can launch a 125 JHP at 1500 fps from a 4 inch barrel.

the 10mm can launch 155;s at 1500 fps.

44 magnum can get 180's to 1600 fps from a 6 inch bbl. but those bullets are mainly for large game hunting and will do little expansion of human attackers.

Also in defense of the 40 and 9mm I would say a 5 1/2 or 6 inch barrel 9mm firing Underwood 124 +p+ would reach close to 1400 fps or 40 SW 155 would also be around 1400 fps and would be better. (more rounds for the 9 and more caliber for the 40)

the 357 sig with a 5.5 or 6 inch would probably get 1650 fps, but too much velocity can down grade performance on soft bullets. a 9x25 may launch at 125 at 1700 fps from a 6 inch bbl but bullet may frag at impact.

the Legendary 357 mag with 125 jhp for 96% one shot stops may never be beaten, the Texas State police have a 100% success rate with the 357 sig, Virgina has like 99%
but of those, what are one shot stops?
the 125 gold dot by underwood at 1450-1500 fps
would surly be better than the Speer gold dot loads of 1350-1400 fps from 4 and 4.5 inch bbls



Today people are much bigger than 35-25 years ago
better stronger drugs (meth etc) also, it is safe to say the old 357 in today's world would never get 96% one shot stops on drugged out felons attackers. but who knows.

Like I said above the proof is there. not sure how many are one shot stops/ but if Texas has 100% success and another state 99% isn't that 99.5% avg?

many police agencies have records of shooting a attacker with 45 40 and 9mm unloading a whole magazine into them and they don't stop.

I'm sure as data is collected there will be some 357 fails.

As it stands now the success rate of the 357 sig is pretty high, and been around for many years in those agencies too. the real world proof is there if you look for it.

take care
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Old 12-10-2012, 17:33   #656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
Bullet speed while going out of the end of a barrel it totally different that the speed of it going through a human body.

I think the "lightning bolt effect" is a combination of a bullet that has expanded and is still moving OVER the speed of sound while traveling through a attackers body.

a bullet that is still breaking the sound barrier while it is going through vital organs of the body. and the speed of sound is around 1100 fps

the combination of a good expanding bullet with at least a .140 sectional density and moving around 1400 fps from the muzzle seems to be the ticket.

This has PROVEN to work in REAL LIFE.
I tend to agree with you, scotty. There's a convergence of bullet design/velocity in handguns that create an ever-evolving window of effectiveness.

In the early 1900s the .38 Special didn't get the job done for the military so the .45ACP was developed, which still works to this day.

In the 1920s the .38 Super was created and from what I can tell it's still a credible (if expensive) self-defense caliber available in the 1911 platform. It seems to me that the .357sig is a bit more formidable with twice the ammo capacity, with the .38 Super having more bullet weight options available for those who reload.

In the 1930s the .38 Special had issues for LEO so the .357 Magnum was created and to this day is the standard by which all other handgun effectiveness is measured.

I'm no ballistics expert my any measurement but from what I can tell the .357 Magnum is the best single all-round handgun caliber for personal self-defense purposes if one doesn't consider magazine/gun capacity.
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Old 12-10-2012, 18:22   #657
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
...In the early 1900s the .38 Special didn't get the job done for the military so the .45ACP was developed, which still works to this day...

Actually, primary historical sources show that the .45 Colt SAA's, that were hastily "un-mothballed" during the Philipine Insurrection, did no better against the Moros due to the pointy lead bullet used that usually zipped right through an adversary. Elmer Keith wrote of this.

Quote:
In the 1920s the .38 Super was created and from what I can tell it's still a
credible (if expensive) self-defense caliber available in the 1911 platform...
The .38 Super was designed as a better way to penetrate auto bodies as well as primitive 1st Gen body armour during the Gangster Era.


Quote:
In the 1930s the .38 Special had issues for LEO so the .357 Magnum was created
and to this day is the standard by which all other handgun effectiveness is measured.

Actually, Doug Wesson designed it a hunting round.

Quote:

I'm no ballistics expert...
You ain't an historian either.
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Old 12-10-2012, 21:06   #658
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The .38 Super was designed as a better way to penetrate auto bodies as well as primitive 1st Gen body armour during the Gangster Era.
Are you telling us the handgun calibers/loads at that time lacked certain abilities that LEO deemed necessary, leading to the creation of the .38 Super?
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Old 12-10-2012, 21:34   #659
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The .38super is based off the .38acp.(same case dimensions) The .38acp predates the era of the notorious gangsters of the prohibition era by decades. The Colt 1900 could not handle the .38acp in original form (which was close to .38super) so they scaled it back. When the more robust 1911 came about they could go to the more powerful .38super.

Last edited by dkf; 12-10-2012 at 21:36..
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Old 12-11-2012, 13:59   #660
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncz View Post
Texas and other depts could switch to the .40 but they don't.



The .357 SIG offers this over the Forty:

Lower recoil.

Improved accuracy

superior tactical penetration.

Superior Stopping Power with most loads than any other common police
calibers.

Or at least us .357 owners think so.
Lets not forget that this is the best feeding caliber making it very,very reliable.
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Old 12-11-2012, 19:57   #661
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Lets not forget that this is the best feeding caliber making it very,very reliable.
That is a good point. most of today's autos are reliable, but the 357 sig could use a huge hollow point and still feel I'll bet.

I've only owned a old 380 ACP (grandfathers I gave to uncle) a 1911 45 ACP that eventually was stolen back in 1987

And the two guns I have now. a 6 inch Lamma Super Comanche .44 mag (a copy of Smith 29) and a 2 shot 3 inch bll Derringer in .44 mag.


I have been wanting to get another auto-loader for some time. I have always been biased to the .45

But have since after much research, lean to the 9mm over .45 slightly less stopping power per shot, but much more rounds. Then the 40 looks good also.

I'm not biased, I get to start with what I want.


If a thief is in my house or garage and I hear them and go to investigate, you never know what they might do, some crooks will give up, others will run, but a lot of them would just as well kill you, as to leave no one to identify them.

If I'm out mushroom hunting and run into some portable meth lab, chances are they may want to get rid of the witness.

I do not want to have to kill someone, that is for sure.
But if I am forced to defend myself I want the attackers to be stopped, not pissed off and coming at me with a knife while I hold a empty smoking 9mm that had 17 rounds.

Nothing is a death ray no is anything 100% but the
125 grains in 35 caliber at 1450 fps has seemed to prove it self through time as the best chance.

Used to be it was the 357 magnum with 6 shots vs the 9mm with 18 shots and it was a close call. now we have the 357 sig with factory 125's at 1500 fps from 4 inch barrels and 16 shots




After the research of REAL world results, I chose the
Glock 32 357 Sig. I think for stopping power it edges out the 9 +p+ 40 S&W and 45 acp, esp with gold dots.

The 10mm might be better with 155's gold dots at 1500 fps for stopping power, but bigger heavier thicker frame guns and much more recoil..

The downside to the 357 sig is no one sells ammo for it where I live, we have gadr mnt and at least 30-40 other guns shop in the area, and no one carries any 357 sig guns or ammo. I called guns shops in Indianapolis (78 miles from me) and no one there that I called has the guns or ammo.
nor do they have any 10mm's.
Everyone seems to be satisfied with average, the 9-40-45 and nothing else exists.
I had to have a shop order my 357.

my friend used to love the 357 revolver Smith 19 and 686 from 20 years past , now he has 9mm and 40's. he's going to crap his pants when I come by with a 357 auto loader.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:15   #662
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Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
The 10mm might be better with 155's gold dots at 1500 fps for stopping power, but bigger heavier thicker frame guns and much more recoil..
Maybe Im just biased to the 10mm, but I think the 10mm is a pleasure to shoot (have shot everything from a Kimber, Colt Delta Elite, Eaa Elite Match, and a Glock 20 which I now own).
Had a chance to shoot both the .357 sig and a 10mm being fed Underwood 165gr during one range visit and IMHO the recoil wasnt that much different between the two.
The 10 has more of a .45 push whereas the 357 sig had more of a .40 muzzle flip.
Stories about the 10 having the recoil of a battleship is what kept me from it for so long and its just not true.
Your spot on about the ammo avail though.

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Old 12-12-2012, 03:21   #663
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T
But if I am forced to defend myself I want the attackers to be stopped, not pissed off and coming at me with a knife while I hold a empty smoking 9mm that had 17 rounds.
Shot placement. It's like the old real estate slogan, "Location, location, location." The .357SIG won't be any more effective or lethal if you don't hit vitals.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:35   #664
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The 125 grain .35ish cal bullets @ 1350+ seem to be excellent stoppers for sure. However, keep in mind the number of shootings that occur with 357 sig vs. 9mm, .40, or .45. What do you think the ratio of shootings would be comparing 9mm or .40 to 357 sig? I'm not sure there are a huge number of .45s in service but for .40 and 9mm there may be 20 shooting for every 357 sig shooting. Who knows? 20 to 1, 40 to 1, it's hard to say. If it were 20 to 1 you could expect twenty failures to stop for every one you would hear about with 357 sig. Just food for thought.

Remember also that other cartridges come in various bullet weights and power levels, low-recoil loads, ect. Some of which may not be a very good stopper. You can't hold it against the cartridges that have more variety, which may cause there to be some bad loads, while there could be some that work just as well or better than most in 357 sig. The 357 sig loads all have nearly the same external ballistic profile. It is a combination of caliber, mass , and velocity that works very well apparently as long as a proper bullet design is used.

Last edited by Scoob; 12-12-2012 at 07:52..
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Old 12-12-2012, 13:31   #665
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Shot placement. It's like the old real estate slogan, "Location, location, location." The .357SIG won't be any more effective or lethal if you don't hit vitals.

Shot placement is key, but how often does one get practice with a handgun and a target running at you bobbing up and down either shooting at you, or has a big knife.

This is all good at the range, but real life drama does not always have a man sitting perfectly still who wants you dead.

even the most perfect shot to the heart and the attacker may live for another 10 seconds to a minute even.
enough to pop 6 x 38's into your chest.

You can either take your time and get good shot placement or shoot fast and get a hit period.

We all can not get the perfect brain or spine shot to stop an attacker. non perfect shot require good expanding bullets than can penetrate and has high velocity.

The idea is not to get a heart shot and kill the person, it is to STOP them. the So called Lightning bolt effect of the 357 was the hydrostatic shock of breaking the sound barrier through a persons body or vital organs with a expanding bullet.

If they "calibers" are all the same and it is shot placement, then why did the Texas State Police complain the 9mm was not good enough after replacing the 6 shot 357 revolvers? how come even after they went with the 45 acp that was a slight improvement over the 9mm that they still did not have the effects on bad guys as the 357 magnum?

the load with a 125 at 1450 fps through a 4 inch bbl

it just could be that a expanding bullet traveling 1450 fps (a lot of cops had 6 inch 357's so 1500+ fps) with a 125 was enough to have the bullet go through/into the body of a BG at OVER the speed of sound.. sending a shockwave through body. and drop him quick.

a combination of a good expanding bullet and a sectional density of at least 1.40 and 1400+ fps (125 357 mag)was good enough to penetrate a BG go through the fat layers and muscle layer and still be super sonic into the organs.

the 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP can NOT the cake here



the ultra hot loaded 9mm.+P+ loads of a 115 at 1400 fps and a 124 at 1300 fps would seem like they would be close, the 10 grains less bullet weight slows down much faster through flesh, and thus by the time it reaches the organs it is subsonic, same for the 124 at 1300 no sonic crack or hydrostatic shock as with 100 fps less muz vel the bullets are just shy of super sonic as they enter the vitals.

This all of course depends on the size of the attacker.


The 40 S&W with the 155 has a sectional density of 1.40 but the hottest 40 load is 1300 fps wit the 155.

the .45 acp is worse for the hydrostatic shock, although it has massive caliber and even more massive with good expanding bullets that does the job well.

What we do know is in real life the 357 magnum worked VERY well compared to the other calibers.
The 125 357 load had a bullet Sectional density of 1.40 at 1450 fps and it worked Great.

There is not a 1.40 sectional density bullet load combo on the face of the planet that can get over 1400 fps from a 45 acp, 40 S&W or the hottest 9mm +p+. and 1300 fps is tops with a hot hot load.

(unless we are talking unpractical to carry long long barrels of 5.5 and 6 inch in autoloaders)


Yet the 357 Sig can launch a 125 bullet with a Sectional density bullet of 1.41 at 1500 fps from a 4 inch bbl with a Factory load. The 357 mag can get way more that 1450 fps from a 125, but that is what worked, why change it?

the 10mm can also launch 1.40 SD (155;s) bullets at 1400-1500 fps.with good expanding bullets..


I would not call the 357 sig worlds better than the 9 +p+, 40 SW and 45 acp just has a slight edge in stopping an attacker from getting to you. or if you hit him 1st to stop him from firing on you with his gun. The lightning bolt effect from what real police claim in teas is more than a myth.
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Old 12-12-2012, 13:57   #666
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Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
Shot placement is key, but how often does one get practice with a handgun and a target running at you bobbing up and down either shooting at you, or has a big knife.

This is all good at the range, but real life drama does not always have a man sitting perfectly still who wants you dead.

even the most perfect shot to the heart and the attacker may live for another 10 seconds to a minute even.
enough to pop 6 x 38's into your chest.

You can either take your time and get good shot placement or shoot fast and get a hit period.

We all can not get the perfect brain or spine shot to stop an attacker. non perfect shot require good expanding bullets than can penetrate and has high velocity.

The idea is not to get a heart shot and kill the person, it is to STOP them. the So called Lightning bolt effect of the 357 was the hydrostatic shock of breaking the sound barrier through a persons body or vital organs with a expanding bullet.
Lightning bolt, lol. Never heard the .357 called that. No such thing as hydrostatic shock.


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Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
If they "calibers" are all the same and it is shot placement, then why did the Texas State Police complain the 9mm was not good enough after replacing the 6 shot 357 revolvers?
The Texas Dept of Public Safety (DPS) went to .357 SIG as their penetration requirements are different than those for civilians, which may require them to shoot through auto glass. Rare is the situation where a civilian will have to shoot through auto glass.


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how come even after they went with the 45 acp that was a slight improvement over the 9mm that they still did not have the effects on bad guys as the 357 magnum?
Bullet development was minimal for autos until the law enforcement agencies started adopting them. It took time for bullet development caught up to the needs of LEOs. Now I know of ZERO LEO agencies that prefer .357 Magnum revolvers to 9mm or .45 autos.


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Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
it just could be that a expanding bullet traveling 1450 fps (a lot of cops had 6 inch 357's so 1500+ fps) with a 125 was enough to have the bullet go through/into the body of a BG at OVER the speed of sound.. sending a shockwave through body. and drop him quick.
Again, no such thing as hydrostatic shock. There's many stories of felons surviving COM shots with .357 Mag shots. It isn't a magic caliber. Neither is .357SIG.

Lightning bolts and hydrostatic shock and shockwaves , lol.

It's all about where you shoot them. Take the time at the range to learn to hit what you're aiming at. No bullet is going to stop an attacker if you don't hit a vital, I don't care how much velocity you give it, or what SD the bullet has.

Shot. Placement.

Live it. Learn it.
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Old 12-12-2012, 15:07   #667
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There's many stories of felons surviving COM shots with .357 Mag shots. It isn't a magic caliber. Neither is .357SIG.
You're right, but if there is/was a better handgun caliber than the .357 Magnum for stopping deadly encounters I haven't read about it.
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Old 12-12-2012, 18:43   #668
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Lightning bolt, lol. Never heard the .357 called that. No such thing as hydrostatic shock.
What do you call it then? Why is it the the Texas and many other state police have like a 99_100% success rate with the 357 sig, the gun has been used since 1994, almost 20 years.. I'm sure it has racked up more than 50-100 shootings. yet agencies one after the other have issues with the 9mm to stop the BG.. WHOLE magazine of 9mm dumped into the bad guy and they keep coming yet almost 20 years of service with the 357 sig and hardly any failures at all.


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The Texas Dept of Public Safety (DPS) went to .357 SIG as their penetration requirements are different than those for civilians, which may require them to shoot through auto glass. Rare is the situation where a civilian will have to shoot through auto glass.
That is the same ol excuse Every 9mm fan boy has. There is nothing wrong with the 9mm but face the facts it does not have equal stopping power as the stop handgun rounds.
it is much better than 38 special and holds a lot of rounds

You can try and play it off like the 9mm is just as good as the 357 sig or 357 mag per round at stopping someone and claim LOE only reason to use it is to shoot through auto glass.
READ UP DUDE, the Texas State Police (DPS) did not pick the 357 sig because it shot through glass better, it was picked because the 9mm failed and the 45 the replaced the 9 was not as good as the 357 mag per round.
Yes the extra 200 fps does aid in shooting through auto glass. But those kind of scenarios are once in a blue moon that they need to shoot through a windshield.
The reason they chose it was it put down the BG more often that the weaker 9mm+p+

The 357 sig is not the best choice for shooting through windshields anyways the light 125's need a perfect angle to do the work.



Quote:
Originally Posted by digilo View Post
Bullet development was minimal for autos until the law enforcement agencies started adopting them. It took time for bullet development caught up to the needs of LEOs. Now I know of ZERO LEO agencies that prefer .357 Magnum revolvers to 9mm or .45 autos.
No one said they prefer the 357 magnum to 9mm, but they did say that they missed the stopping power of the 357.

The lightning bolt effect is something the police made up referring to how fast people went down with the 357 magnum.
it is a FACT the failure of the 9mm in the Texas DPS and how they now love the 357 sig. Dont take my word for it ask them why they prefer it head and shoulders over the 9mm (except for cost of ammo.)

Ask the Secret Service why they have a gun that hold 2 less rounds than a 9mm (357 sig) over a 9mm IF shot placement meant EVERYTHING and caliber means nothing.They would have the gun with 2 more rounds if your mindset was reality. I guess those Sevret Service people are dumb morons who don't know their a-hole fro ma hole in the ground huh?


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It's all about where you shoot them. Take the time at the range to learn to hit what you're aiming at. No bullet is going to stop an attacker if you don't hit a vital, I don't care how much velocity you give it, or what SD the bullet has. .
So you are trying to tell us a 25 acp is just as good as a 357 magnum? I mean if shot placement is everything.
You have spent too much time at the range, because in a real gun fight, targets move around and they shoot back. and most of the time that perfect shot you talk about is not going to happen.


I guess if you base your statistics off old spaghetti westerns where Clint can down 4-5 guys with perfect shots, then your the man.

Can I ask why you would carry a 9mm over a 380 if shot placement was the deciding factor etc?
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Old 12-15-2012, 13:14   #669
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You're right, but if there is/was a better handgun caliber than the .357 Magnum for stopping deadly encounters I haven't read about it.
So true, the .357 Magnum 125gr SJHP has been the king for 40 years.
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Old 12-15-2012, 19:20   #670
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So true, the .357 Magnum 125gr SJHP has been the king for 40 years.
True, Even Marshal lists the 357 magnum and 45 acp as the tops rounds. both have 2 different bullets that have one shot stops of 96%
Yet Marshal list the 9mm best load at 91% and then puts the Federal 125 357 sig as the best 357 sig load at 92%. a mediocore load.

Yet Why doesn't Marshal list any of the loads the police have been having success with, the Speer gold dots?

Does not the Texas DPS police have like a 100% success rate with this load, and Delaware has 99%..

Yet Marshal completely ignores this data. I have heard "well it's a new caliber and data will take awhile to gather, yet the Texas DPS police has been using this bullet load for almost "20 years".. -1994-
is this caliber and load so good that he is biased against the 357 sig, compared to what he carries and spent his $$ on already.

take care
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Old 12-15-2012, 19:55   #671
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WHOLE magazine of 9mm dumped into the bad guy and they keep coming

There is nothing wrong with the 9mm
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Old 12-15-2012, 21:04   #672
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True, Even Marshal lists the 357 magnum and 45 acp as the tops rounds. both have 2 different bullets that have one shot stops of 96%
To be fair, they did list the 135gr .40 at 96% also, with it's poor sectional density and all. Several other .40's at 94%.
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:56   #673
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To be fair, they did list the 135gr .40 at 96% also, with it's poor sectional density and all. Several other .40's at 94%.
that is a great number. I can believe it if one load of 40 can get 94% then another could get 96%.

I just wonder why the Gold dot loads of the Texas DPS (state police) from te past 20 yeears have been totally ignored by the even marshal study . I know they have a 100% success rate there. Those loads are the weaker speer 125 at 1350 fps from 4 inch bbl 1400 fps from the longer service 4.5 inch bbls. It is like he is totally pi$$ed off the 357 sig out does his handgun rounds and is hiding or bypassing the stats.
I can now see why many people have doubts about his/their studies These caliber and loads have been used by the Texas DPS for almost 20 years. so the excuse of not enough info, isn't going to cut the cake either.

later



I know no ammo is going to be 100% in any caliber. esp handgun, but those actual statistics can not be ignored.
It is quite possible they might be 97-98% one shot stoppers.

Those underwood 9mm +p+ 124's at over 1300 fps should raise the bar on the 9mm. some people are getting 1350 fps out of glock 17's and it very close to the magical 1400-1450 fps of the legendary 125 357 magnum
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:10   #674
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WHOLE magazine of 9mm dumped into the bad guy and they keep coming

There is nothing wrong with the 9mm
the 9mm is a good round, but there are better calibers.
the 9 owners who think once you hit 9mm power it doesn't get any better. 1150-1300 fps with a 124 is good, but not near as proven as 1350-1500 fps with the 125.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:48   #675
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Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
True, Even Marshal lists the 357 magnum and 45 acp as the tops rounds. both have 2 different bullets that have one shot stops of 96%
Yet Marshal list the 9mm best load at 91% and then puts the Federal 125 357 sig as the best 357 sig load at 92%. a mediocore load.

Yet Why doesn't Marshal list any of the loads the police have been having success with, the Speer gold dots?

Does not the Texas DPS police have like a 100% success rate with this load, and Delaware has 99%..

Yet Marshal completely ignores this data. I have heard "well it's a new caliber and data will take awhile to gather, yet the Texas DPS police has been using this bullet load for almost "20 years".. -1994-
is this caliber and load so good that he is biased against the 357 sig, compared to what he carries and spent his $$ on already.

take care
Evan isn't biased against the .357. As a matter of fact, he carries the .357 presently. See stoppingpower.net.

He isn't collecting data anymore.
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