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Old 01-16-2010, 20:39   #41
uz2bUSMC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
Yes the ballistics are impressive to me also, but the question in my mind is what's the advantage in normal civilian self-defense encounters over .357 Magnum (revolvers) or 10mm (and .45ACP, .40S&W/.357sig, 9mm in semi-autos) with that increased power and penetration?

It seems to me that any cartridge exceeding the listed calibers above are in the realm of specialized uses or military applications. I'd love to shoot a 9 X 25 Dillion just to experience it but I don't know of any realistic advantage it would provide. If I had a 10mm Glock I'd for sure have a conversion barrel but for self-defense purposes how could it be better than the 10mm?
Keep in mind that these ballistics are from a 6"bbl for the 9x25. DT 10mm 135 grain has posted 955ft.lbs from a 6". The advantage is having a pistol with carbine performance, roughly that of a 14.5" 5.56.
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Old 01-16-2010, 23:20   #42
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
Yeah, what unit1069 said!

Double Tap 9X25 Gold Dot loads:
115gr, 1800fps/827ft-lbs, 10.0" penetration in clothed gel
125gr, 1725fps/826ft-lbs, 15.0" penetration in clothed gel
147gr, 1550fps/784ft-lbs, 17.5" penetration in clothed gel

Scary in all the right ways!!!

Good Shooting,
Craig
9x25mm certainly puts up some nice numbers; however, bullet design and construction can overcome those very hign energy numbers.

Here's a direct 4 layer denim comparison with the 9x25mm; from Michael Shovel at Corbon, only 466 ft-lbs from their DPX ammo line!

Quote:
This was using properly prepared 10% ballistic gelatin with a 4 layer denim barrier.

The 44 Special ended up with

velocity - 1024 fps
recovered diameter - .89"
penetration - 17.5"
recovered wt - 200 gr
Sectional density of the 200gr DPX bullet is less than the 147gr GD, which is well past its velocity design parameters.

Bob
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:07   #43
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Out West, you caught me by surprise. Thanks. I'd enjoy that if the opportunity ever came about ... as long as you didn't mind me bringing along a cigar or two.

As far as the main thread topic goes ...

I've always respected the .357 Magnum revolver cartridge for its versatility as a medium-bore revolver cartridge, especially for a couple of loads I used to favor when I was a handloader, one of which was a stoutly loaded 140gr JHP (I used the CCI JHP bullet).

I had to settle for 158gr JHP, 125gr JHP and 145gr STHP loads for duty ammo when I later got into LE work. The 140gr JHP factory loads were harder to find.

I remember attending a couple of wound ballistics seminars taught by a former DoD investigator who had the personal opinion (albeit based on his case experience investigating shootings in special circumstances) that if the .357 Magnum revolver had remained in LE service a while longer that the 140gr JHP, especially the 140gr SJHP, would probably have eventually been recognized to basically be a "better 125gr JHP". Maybe so. Dunno. I liked the capabilities of the middle weight Magnum load, though.

It's probably accurate to say that my interest in the .357 Magnum limits any interest I might have had in the .357SIG. I'd rather buy another .357 Magnum revolver than a pistol in .357SIG, but that's also probably because I already have so many excellent CCW-capable pistols chambered in 9, .40 & .45 ...
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Old 01-17-2010, 15:10   #44
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Thanks.

I understand (and agree) what you're saying about the possibility of the "it's just a handgun" being somewhat of an over-generalization, or simplification. I'd offer that it depends on the situational context, though.

Personally, I don't use it without thought.

I often use the generalization when I hear some younger folks splitting hairs and trying to argue nebulous shades-of-gray merits of one major caliber in a short-barreled service pistol over another ... after having just qualified them, or having observed another instructor having qualified them, and assessing their relative skills and abilities.

I often suspect that some of these young folks (for the most part, but obviously not exclusively) are sometimes mentally substituting - either intentionally or unintentionally - caliber or bullet design in hopes of making up for their abilities and skills. Something along the lines of it being faster and easier to "buy" a perceived potential advantage than investing the time and effort in a developing a physical/mental one (and maintaining it).

Yes, no and maybe. Depends.

There's arguably a primacy in assigning priorities to all the various mental (knowledge/mindset), physical (strength/endurance), equipment (weapons, holsters, ammunition) and skills/abilities involved in using a successfully and effectively using a handgun as a defensive weapon when both lawful and appropriate. The trick is to figure out the most critical priorities and influential factors which may come into play in any given set of circumstances or situation.

I like having access to the better designed, more modern hollowpoint loads when possible, myself, but I don't place an emphasis on doing so to the extent that I neglect developing and maintaining skills (or maintaining a given handgun properly).

Some folks often give the impression that they seem to think a certain caliber is going to get them safely past the 'make or break' point, and others seem to like to think of make/model handgun or bullet design factors in much the same way. Dunno.

The "Talisman Effect", perhaps?

I use the "it's just a handgun" comment to see if it jars their thinking, or prompts them to reconsider their assessment of potential priorities, as well as reconsider the relative importance of being able to use whatever handgun they have at their disposal in the first place.

I'd rather go into Harm's Way with an experienced, if grizzled and worn, veteran who can decisively, accurately & effectively employ his well-worn S&W Model 10 than some young hot-shot with his cutting edge gear and state-of-the-art ammunition.

Confidence in equipment is fine and laudable, but I'd offer that it shouldn't be unreasonably elevated above the relative importance of the knowledge, skills, abilities, experience and mindset of the equipment user.

Of course, given the choice between facing a given situation armed just with a handgun, instead of a shotgun or patrol rifle?

In the greater scheme of everything that may be encountered or the specific situations which may occur ... it's still just a handgun. It's still just a piece of equipment. Maybe some nuance or subtle quality of the individual piece of equipment (or ammunition) may be just enough to allow the user to prevail, or maybe the 'user qualities' may overcome any inherent superiority of design or performance capability of the equipment.

Just depends how many eggs and how many baskets someone wants to juggle when it comes down to the potential for serious consequences, maybe.

I agree with the M4 configured with the shortest barrel options essentially being 2-handed machine pistols of arguably lesser advantage regarding ballistic capability (as well as the disadvantage of the increased muzzle blast and noise) ... depending on ammunition selection, of course ... but there's always going to be the younger folks who go for the appearance/cool factor.

You know, the 'team leader gets the coolest carbine' sort of thing? Hey, maybe they'll grow out of it, or reconsider the totality of their experience and 'working wisdom' after surviving some experience or other ... and when it comes right down to it, the configurations wouldn't be made if they didn't sell for whatever reason or weren't being requested.

Doesn't mean I'd want one instead of a good pistol, though, either.

Excellent post!


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Old 01-17-2010, 15:31   #45
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357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper???

Nope. Other than internet rumor, I heard of many agencies switching to .357sig. Not a bad round, but not exactly gaining ground versus .40 either.
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Old 01-17-2010, 15:37   #46
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
Yes the ballistics are impressive to me also, but the question in my mind is what's the advantage in normal civilian self-defense encounters over .357 Magnum (revolvers) or 10mm (and .45ACP, .40S&W/.357sig, 9mm in semi-autos) with that increased power and penetration?

It seems to me that any cartridge exceeding the listed calibers above are in the realm of specialized uses or military applications. I'd love to shoot a 9 X 25 Dillion just to experience it but I don't know of any realistic advantage it would provide. If I had a 10mm Glock I'd for sure have a conversion barrel but for self-defense purposes how could it be better than the 10mm?
Comparing the 9x25 to the 10mm in terms of terminal ballistics, runs parallel to the .357SIG vs. 40S&W debate. In both cases you're trading a bit of mass and frontal area for energy. For more specific/tactical applications, the 9x25 may well have an edge over the 10mm with the very top loads and comparable weight to caliber ratio for both calibers. If I carried a 10mm Glock, I'd be very tempted by the 9x25 for carry IF the bullets were designed to perform at those elevated velocities. Anotherwards, 10mm for home defense where the chances of having to penetrate secondary obstacles were basically a non-issue and you want that extra frontal area/mass working for you with an unobstructed target at VERY close quarters. When you're "out in the world" there are more possible variables that could have an effect on the outcome such as increased distances, windshield/barrier penetration,etc. and THERE is where I'd want the 9x25 on my side "just in case". So a drop in barrel and mag change is all you'd need as you head out the door.
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Old 01-19-2010, 15:30   #47
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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...=rbxcra.2.a.11
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Old 01-19-2010, 16:17   #48
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I'm by no means a ballistics expert, and my favorite autopistol caliber is still the 9mm. However, with the 357 sig's speed, i can see it possibly penetrating better with hollow points, as compared to a regular 9mm hp. It may also offer a bit of extre penetration through side shots, arm bones, and other barriers. Then there is probably also, some extra hydrostatick shock caused by 357 sig wounds. It may or may not cause permanent damage, but i'm sure the target is going to feel it either way.
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Old 01-19-2010, 17:28   #49
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I think reading those articles is very interesting. So as far as state troopers are concerned 19%+ are currently using the 357 Sig and amoung that group it is second only to the 40 S&W. That sounds far from a novelty round as some have implied.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:44   #50
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Since many law enforcement agencies that issue the .357SIG, Speer's bonded 125gr Gold Dot advertised at 1350fps is a popular choice for carry ammo.

The 125gr GD has a shallow cavity (high velocity) design, the 147gr GD is a deep cavity design, as is the 10mm/155gr GD. Now contrast this with the shallow cavity .357mag/158gr GD and the old tech Remington 158gr SJHP.

Caliber Corner

Comparing sectional density match ups pits the .357SIG/125gr Gold Dot vs the 10mm/155gr GD. Using steel barriers in front of one gallon water bottles the handloaded 125gr GD (1430fps + in .38Super) out penetrated and expanded wider than the handloaded 10mm/155gr GD. If Speer offered a shallow cavity 155gr for 10mm velocities it would result in better performance.

The best performing steel barrier/water bottle test turned out to be the .357mag/140gr SJHP running in the low 1500s, and that includes the .357mag/158gr GD.

Loading the 9mm with the 125gr Gold Dot (knocking on 1300fps) instead of the 124gr Gold Dot and penetration/expansion is on par with the 10mm/155gr GD.

Caliber Corner

124gr lower right.

l-r 9mm/125gr GD, 38Super/125gr GD, 357mag/125gr GD (1600s)

So, what round went heads up with the 125gr GD/1430fps (faster than Speer's factory one-shot-stopper MV)???

Caliber Corner

.45auto/230gr Golden Saber/960fps. The .45auto still remains a very popular carry for high risk law enforcement teams/units, including FBI SWAT/HRT et al.

Notice the terrible recoil of the .357mag/125gr GD/1600s/750fpe;

Caliber Corner

For those who handload, the 9mm/125gr GD offers much better performance than the 124gr, plus the shallow cavity design is less likely to clog.

Bob
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Old 01-20-2010, 22:37   #51
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Originally Posted by Glolt20-91 View Post
For those who handload, the 9mm/125gr GD offers much better performance than the 124gr, plus the shallow cavity design is less likely to clog.

Bob
I guess there's an exception to every rule. From the standpoint you're always preaching about any given bullet's designed velocity window. Do you think a 155gr XTP in the 10mm load would stand up better to hard barrier penetration over the Gold Dot design?

Did you chrono the handloaded 155gr 10mm load you spoke of? If so what was the velocity? 4.6" or 6.0" barrel?
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Old 01-21-2010, 15:03   #52
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Fastbolt has my respect as well, I truly enjoy reading his posts.
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Old 01-21-2010, 18:30   #53
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Look the 357 sig is not an unbelievable man stopper. I carry it and it is an effective SD cartridge. I feel no special reason to promote it and others should not rush to marginalize or condem it. This is caliber corner and this stuff is fun and although I particularly like the 357 sig., I think I would still be OK with my G23 or XD45 and my ability to place a shot under tremendous pressure will more dictate the outcome. However, although I have a G19, it is hard to warm up to the 9mm as a carry cartridge. Most agencies (local and state) went from the 9mm to the 40 S&W for a reason. Also, if I have to count on the 15th and 16th round, it will be a pretty bad day.
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Old 01-23-2010, 00:04   #54
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I guess there's an exception to every rule. From the standpoint you're always preaching about any given bullet's designed velocity window. Do you think a 155gr XTP in the 10mm load would stand up better to hard barrier penetration over the Gold Dot design?

Did you chrono the handloaded 155gr 10mm load you spoke of? If so what was the velocity? 4.6" or 6.0" barrel?
Check your Hornady manual for their XTP design velocities.

The 155gr Gold Dot was running in the mid 1300s, here's some load data Mike McNett posted on the 10mm reloading page;

Quote:
85F 5000ft CCI 350 primers Starline brass AA 7 powder 1.255" OAL:

G29:
135gr 13.5gr - 1310fps
155 XTP 12.6 - 1263fps
165gr Sierra 12.0gr - 1232fps
180gr XTP 10.9 - 1145fps
200gr XTP 10.3 - 1092fps
220gr Precision FP 9.2gr - 975fps

G20:
135gr 13.5gr - 1409fps
155 XTP 12.6 - 1356fps
165gr Sierra 12.0gr - 1291fps
180gr XTP 10.9 - 1189fps
200gr XTP 10.3 - 1141fps
220gr Precision FP 9.2gr - 1027fps

6"KKM:
135gr 13.5gr - 1557fps
155 XTP 12.6 - 1462fps
165gr Sierra 12.0gr - 1370fps
180gr XTP 10.9 - 1266fps
200gr XTP 10.3 - 1205fps
220gr Precision FP 9.2gr - 1062fps
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AA #7 is a nice powder to work with, but I really like what I see with the Longshot numbers, apparently McNett does too;

Quote:
Here is some info from my work with Longshot. Always start 1.0gr lower and work up in .2gr increments until you see pressure signs. (Waters' method):
Starline Brass, CCI 350 primers, 1.26" OAL. 10 shot avg. G20 85F and 5000ft elevation.

135gr Nosler 13.2gr LS - 1542fps
165 GSHP 10.4gr LS - 1356fps
180 GSHP 9.6gr LS - 1294fps
200 XTP 8.2gr LS - 1172fps

These are loads that I have worked up to and are under 37,500psi when I had them tested. I hope this helps!
-Mike
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Old 01-23-2010, 03:48   #55
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Originally Posted by Glolt20-91 View Post
Check your Hornady manual for their XTP design velocities.

The 155gr Gold Dot was running in the mid 1300s, here's some load data Mike McNett posted on the 10mm reloading page;



AA #7 is a nice powder to work with, but I really like what I see with the Longshot numbers, apparently McNett does too;



Bob
My Hornady manual says up to 1300fps for the 155gr XTPs. Doesn't mean we can't experiment at ~1400fps though. Whatever reasons Hornady has for recommending an upper limit of 1300fps may not mean I wouldn't be just as happy with their overall performance at ~1400fps. Maybe I would,maybe I wouldn't. Only some fair testing would tell.

Also, I agree. With the 10mm, Longshot, with virtually any bullet weight, appears to be argueably as good or better than most or any others powders out there. I have lots of load data for the 10mm.


Thanks Bob,
Craig
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Old 01-23-2010, 17:45   #56
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
My Hornady manual says up to 1300fps for the 155gr XTPs. Doesn't mean we can't experiment at ~1400fps though. Whatever reasons Hornady has for recommending an upper limit of 1300fps may not mean I wouldn't be just as happy with their overall performance at ~1400fps. Maybe I would,maybe I wouldn't. Only some fair testing would tell.

Also, I agree. With the 10mm, Longshot, with virtually any bullet weight, appears to be argueably as good or better than most or any others powders out there. I have lots of load data for the 10mm.


Thanks Bob,
Craig
A number of bullet designs can be pushed an additional 20% to 25%. Like you wrote, the 155gr XTP is pretty explosive when tested in the 1400fps range.

Bob
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Old 01-23-2010, 18:35   #57
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A number of bullet designs can be pushed an additional 20% to 25%. Like you wrote, the 155gr XTP is pretty explosive when tested in the 1400fps range.

Bob
I may be misinterpeting what you wrote, but for the record, I don't actually know if it is or not (the 155gr XTP is pretty explosive when tested in the 1400fps range.).

What I do know is that the 180gr and 200gr XTPs in DT ammo work great (they are rated by Horandy for up to 1450fps and 1200fps respectively) at +.75" expansion into various forms of media. That said, I just wonder if they may have under rated the 155gr XTP a bit.

I do find it curious as to why they rated the 180gr for up to 1450fps! Maybe for good hunting performance from 6" accessory barrels with hot loads? Maybe so they still perform well from 10" barreled TCs? Maybe so they still perform well from carbine length barrels? That's all I can figure. Be interesting to know for sure though. Heck, it could be a misprint in the manual for all I know.

Anyway, if you ever do choose to soup up some 10mm 155gr XTPs, maybe even from the 6" barrel, definately let us know the outcome.


Good Shooting,
Craig
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Old 01-23-2010, 19:56   #58
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Old 01-23-2010, 22:57   #59
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You're always welcome to share your .357SIG field experiences/testing heads-up vs the above 10mm combinations.

Bob
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Old 01-23-2010, 23:34   #60
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Just yanking your chain. I love the 10mm too and have a G29 and 3 1911's calibered in 10mm. However, I rarely carry the G29 in that the 357 sig fits into a smaller platform and God cursed me with small hands.
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