GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-25-2012, 17:32   #741
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by digilo View Post
Define "ballistic pressure wave".
"The observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact"

This obviously is the textbook answer and I'm guessing you actually want more than this...so if you want to discuss...
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 17:34   #742
digilo
Senior Member
 
digilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: texas
Posts: 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
Calm down. If I was asking about that I would have quoted where you asked him directly about his definition of "hydrostatic shock" but I did not. I quoted your reply to English where you say it is never defined.


FWIW, he said, "ballistic shock", which is gibberish, but I wanted him to try to define the term, since he used it. :D
__________________
Taste the wares, Email.

Last edited by digilo; 12-25-2012 at 17:35..
digilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 17:43   #743
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by digilo View Post
FWIW, he said, "ballistic shock", which is gibberish, but I wanted him to try to define the term, since he used it. :D
I know, that's why I didn't bother with that. I believe you had taken a jab at him in a previous thread aswell.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 17:51   #744
digilo
Senior Member
 
digilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: texas
Posts: 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
"The observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact"

This obviously is the textbook answer and I'm guessing you actually want more than this...so if you want to discuss...
Nah, I'll pass. We can repeat the same things that have been said on both sides of the argument by all the people before us, and it won't change a thing, in your mind or mine. I don't believe in ballistic pressure wave as a wounding mechanism, I think it's a guess, a made-up answer to a problem we haven't solved, which is the remote wounding that occasionally happens and cannot be explained by other means. I don't think hydraulics explains it well, but I think it could have something to do with the nervous system, which can be so different from person to person, because if it was hydraulics, it would be more consistently repeatable, whereas a nervous system explanation would allow more room for the lack of reproducibility seen with BPW theory.
That is just my opinion, and you have yours, and you're obviously at least as well informed as I am about it, if not more, and I respect it.
__________________
Taste the wares, Email.
digilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 17:59   #745
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by digilo View Post
Nah, I'll pass. We can repeat the same things that have been said on both sides of the argument by all the people before us, and it won't change a thing, in your mind or mine. I don't believe in ballistic pressure wave as a wounding mechanism, I think it's a guess, a made-up answer to a problem we haven't solved, which is the remote wounding that occasionally happens and cannot be explained by other means. I don't think hydraulics explains it well, but I think it could have something to do with the nervous system, which can be so different from person to person, because if it was hydraulics, it would be more consistently repeatable, whereas a nervous system explanation would allow more room for the lack of reproducibility seen with BPW theory.
That is just my opinion, and you have yours, and you're obviously at least as well informed as I am about it, if not more, and I respect it.
Very well. Take care.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 18:28   #746
Tiro Fijo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by digilo View Post
Tiro. It appears that a .35 cal 125 gr JHP bullet at 1400 FPS just plain works, but those same caliber bullets at 1300 result in "many, many, many failures to stop bad guys".

And just how do you know this? Facts please. No "I read in Guns & Ammo..."
Tiro Fijo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 18:50   #747
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866

Enjoyed Reading thread. You got it wrong generally. If carring reasonable designed defensive bullet, the guy that can put two good shots in fatals or three hits in extremities wins. Period.

I don't think caliber matters all that much. I think the guy that can shoot while moving, can draw and fire two shots to center mass in less 2.5 seconds is a long way to coming out safe. What am I saying.....training is as important as caliber?

FBI states average gun fight is close range and last 7 seconds. If true guy with best muscle memory wins.

Rusty
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 19:00   #748
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
And just how do you know this? Facts please. No "I read in Guns & Ammo..."
Are you actually kidding? Because I can see the rhetoric in his post but I'm having trouble seeing it in yours.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 19:04   #749
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866

Enjoyed Reading thread. You got it wrong generally. If carring reasonable designed defensive bullet, the guy that can put two good shots in fatals or three hits in extremities wins. Period.

I don't think caliber matters all that much. I think the guy that can shoot while moving, can draw and fire two shots to center mass in less 2.5 seconds is a long way to coming out safe. What am I saying.....training is as important as caliber?

FBI states average gun fight is close range and last 7 seconds. If true guy with best muscle memory wins.

Rusty
Man, what the hell are you talking about?
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 19:08   #750
digilo
Senior Member
 
digilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: texas
Posts: 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
And just how do you know this? Facts please. No "I read in Guns & Ammo..."

LOL I was being sarcastic.
__________________
Taste the wares, Email.
digilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 20:12   #751
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
Hmmm first two rounds in 8" circle center mass wins. Does it matter that it is good defensive bullet in 9mm, .357, 40 or .45.

I am saying that you guys are looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. My local police department has to qualify once a year. Shooting on static target range.

It does not matter what caliber you give them IMO. They are not trained to use it. They qualify at the gun club I shoot at. I have been range officer several times when some have qualified. They are great guys and I like them a lot. I can tell you they are not combat shooters. Caliber does not matter. In this case at least training does.

Rusty
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u

Last edited by rustytxrx; 12-25-2012 at 20:15..
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 20:23   #752
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
Hmmm first two rounds in 8" circle center mass wins. Does it matter that it is good defensive bullet in 9mm, .357, 40 or .45.

I am saying that you guys are looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. My local police department has to qualify once a year. Shooting on static target range.

It does not matter what caliber you give them IMO. They are not trained to use it. They qualify at the gun club I shoot at. I have been range officer several times when some have qualified. They are great guys and I like them a lot. I can tell you they are not combat shooters. Caliber does not matter.

Rusty
This is like saying that all people respond to gunshots the same, that is not the case. Caliber does matter. You can see by street results that some assailants will function after being hit multiple times in the boiler room. You can also see that caliber is pertinent on the street when it comes to stopping, else everyone would train and fight with a cheap low recoiling round such as the .22. The rest of what you say sounds similar to when I call tech support for my cell. Don't know if the eggnog is treating you really good today or you are loosing control of your Ipad but you gotta start making better sense than that. And don't skim when you are counting scripts, that will likely ef up your posting, as well.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 20:31   #753
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
LOL.....so you think giving LEOs the right caliber would do more than training them to be combat shooters????

Drunk or sober I know that is wrong
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 20:34   #754
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
LOL.....so you think giving LEOs the right caliber would do more than training them to be combat shooters????

Drunk or sober I know that is wrong
No. Training is most important. What is the right caliber?
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 20:35   #755
Tiro Fijo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by digilo View Post
LOL I was being sarcastic.

Boy, did I miss that one.
Tiro Fijo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 21:18   #756
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
What caliber?

This is exactly the point. Caliber without a test of the shooter's ability to use the caliber is meaningless.

a posted news article about Navy Seal Team 6 states the members have to be able to double tap at 3x5 index card at 30 feet with 45acp.

In think that would do fine. Don't you see the important part of this is the ability to USE the caliber. I challenged three police officers I know to shoot at three IDPA targets at 12 yds while they were crossing to covered positions 10 yds to right. They had to keep moving and had to engage all three targets with two shots to center mass. The results.....oooooo not good.

Caliber did not matter at all. I mean at all. If you are a combat shooter you have been trained that moving is living. Shooting while moving is winning.

Train them then your discussion will be meaningful.

Rusty
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u

Last edited by rustytxrx; 12-25-2012 at 21:22..
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 21:27   #757
RPVG
Senior Member
 
RPVG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 671
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post

Train them then your discussion will be meaningful.

Rusty
Train them in which caliber?
__________________
"I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way." Mark Twain
RPVG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 21:32   #758
scottyd2506
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Wrong.



TOTALLY wrong.




Partially wrong/right.



Wrong ne plus ultra.




This is a perfect example of someone totally regurgitating BS they have read on the Internet and/or gunrags. Incredible. Just a major fail.

Sounds like someone should live in Egypt, when they are that close to De-Nile.

The 9mm is a good round, but it is not near the top stoppers. if the 357 Sig, 357 Mag, 40 SW and 45 ACP are the top stopping rounds. Lets not pretend the 9mm (9x19) is also. Then we will have 380 acp owners thinking the same thing, then 32 and 25 auto owners will follow.

You just can't have your cake and eat it too. the 9mm is great for quick follow up shots, less muzzle flash, holding more rounds etc etc, but lets not assume it equals the 357 40 45 or 10mm.

If shot placement is EVERYTHING, then why doesn't most state police agencies use the 9mm? I mean it holds more rounds, less recoil and muzzle flash etc ???
I wonder why they could be so dumb, I mean if the .45 ACP, 40 SW and 357 sig are just plain no better at all than a 9mm. why would they bother.
I guess they are just dumb hicks,

If the men from Mars come down from space and give as a death ray gun pistol, your 9mm is just as deadly, and we better accept it.

Last edited by scottyd2506; 12-25-2012 at 21:35..
scottyd2506 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 21:48   #759
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
What caliber?

This is exactly the point. Caliber without a test of the shooter's ability to use the caliber is meaningless.

a posted news article about Navy Seal Team 6 states the members have to be able to double tap at 3x5 index card at 30 feet with 45acp.

In think that would do fine. Don't you see the important part of this is the ability to USE the caliber. I challenged three police officers I know to shoot at three IDPA targets at 12 yds while they were crossing to covered positions 10 yds to right. They had to keep moving and had to engage all three targets with two shots to center mass. The results.....oooooo not good.

Caliber did not matter at all. I mean at all. If you are a combat shooter you have been trained that moving is living. Shooting while moving is winning.

Train them then your discussion will be meaningful.

Rusty
First off, caliber effectiveness on paper does not matter. Caliber and particular loading in the real world does. And, I'm not arguing against being able to use any given, respectable, service caliber. Using it and what it does on target, a real target, are to different things. You first have to do your part, then the round has to do it's part. I'm just gonna wait til you're sober to continue this debacle. Cheers.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 22:01   #760
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
LOL...I don't drink, nor take drugs...this is as good as it gets. I do like your posts though. Rather circular

Give a 9mm. When they are competent at these drills come back and see me


One combat pistol drill is the El Presidente drill, developed by Jeff Cooper in the 1970s and published in the January/February 1979 issue of American Handgunner magazine.[5] This is used as a benchmark to gauge a shooter's skills, as it tests the draw and reload, and requires good transitions and follow-through.[6] The El Presidente drill is set up as follows:
Three silhouette targets are placed 1 meter apart in a line 10 meters from the shooter
The shooter starts with six rounds in a holstered handgun, and a spare magazine or speedloader with another six rounds
The shooter begins facing directly away from the targets, often with hands clasped in front or over the head.
Upon the starting signal, the shooter turns and draws, fires two shots at each target, reloads, then fires two more shots at each target.
Scoring varies; the simplest method uses hit/miss scoring, with a time penalty (often 10 seconds) for each miss. El Presidentes scored under the IPSC Comstock system take the total number of points on the targets (possible 60 points) and divide that by the time taken to complete the drill. This generates a number called "hit factor" which is a numerical representation of how many points the shooter placed on target per second during the drill. Example: shooting 55 points in 5.5 seconds would give the shooter a 10.0 hit factor. Originally a time of 10 seconds with a stock handgun, and all the points on target, was considered good. Today shooters using modern IPSC raceguns with muzzle brakes and red dot sights are close to breaking the three second barrier, and even shooters using production guns with no muzzle brakes or optical sights routinely break the five second mark.[6]
[edit]The Dozier Drill
This drill was invented by Jeff Cooper after the kidnap of Brigadier General James L. Dozier by Italian Red Brigade terrorists. The terrorists had entered General Dozier's apartment by posing as plumbers. As many as eight completed the gang and four or perhaps five entered the apartment. One of the terrorists removed a submachinegun from his bag of tools while another terrorist read a political statement to General Dozier. At that time, US military personnel were prohibited by Italian law from carrying firearms within their areas of accommodation, which were within the local community and not on US bases. General Dozier was unarmed and unable to defend himself. In response to this incident, Jeff Cooper designed the "Dozier drill".[7]
The range is set with five metal silhouette targets which are hinged at their base (called 'Pepper Poppers') so as to fall backwards when struck. A second participant stands well to one side and is tasked with retrieving a pistol and a magazine from a toolbag, which he must assemble and ready for action. This action mimics the terrorist who retrieved his submachine gun from his toolbag and provides a datum against which the shooter must compare his performance. On the signal, the shooter must draw his pistol and engage the five targets, representing the five terrorists, before the participant representing the terrorist retrieves his pistol and readies it for use.[7]
[edit]Malfunction clearing drills
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:37.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,256
316 Members
940 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42