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Old 02-01-2010, 18:48   #121
Alaskapopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbala View Post
Please cite your source for this BS.
Cite your source saying the 10mm is on the rise. Lets see all those new guns and loads being made for it?
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:52   #122
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Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
That's funny, you have had conversations with these people but in a conversation we had a while back, you didn't even know who Duncan MacPherson was...ok I believe you.
Knowing who Duncan MacPherson is and knowing Evan Marshall and Dr. Roberts is two different matters. If you don't believe me go to Evans forum and ask him if he has ever spoken to me or sent me free ammo for testing about 6 years back.

As for Dr. Roberts go to http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91 and ask him if he had a telephone conversation with me about 3 weeks ago where we talked about everything from the 5.7 to the 6.8. I dare you.

All you are is an internet bully. Grow up and act like a civilized adult.
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:52   #123
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Originally Posted by Mrs_Esterhouse View Post
Cute cover story.

The Wiki entry pretty much matches my college textbook. BTW, you used an Appeal to Ridicule fallacy there with your Wiki comment.
So you're still in college that would explain some things. When you graduate and get some real life under your belt come back and talk to me.
Pat
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:56   #124
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
Knowing who Duncan MacPherson is and knowing Evan Marshall and Dr. Roberts is two different matters. If you don't believe me go to Evans forum and ask him if he has ever spoken to me or sent me free ammo for testing about 6 years back.

As for Dr. Roberts go to http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91 and ask him if he had a telephone conversation with me about 3 weeks ago where we talked about everything from the 5.7 to the 6.8. I dare you.

All you are is an internet bully. Grow up and act like a civilized adult.
Pat
The point is you spout off stuff from Fackler, Roberts, and so on like it's gospel and your in the know but you had and have no idea who one the more prominent members of the IWBA happens to be, kinda funny.

And I'll make contact with Roberts and Evan and offer my condolences.
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:57   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
Cite your source saying the 10mm is on the rise. Lets see all those new guns and loads being made for it?
Pat
Kimber. Dan Wesson. Delta Elite. LES Bayer. EAA Witness. The reintroduction of the Bren 10. The continuing success of the G20.

That's 7 and I've probably missed some. Now, as to the 41. MAG...which I like BTW, but WAY, WAY, more obscure than the 10mm. autolaoder.

Your turn Sport.
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Old 02-01-2010, 18:57   #126
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Oh, and hand over your milk money.
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:05   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbala View Post
Kimber. Dan Wesson. Delta Elite. LES Bayer. EAA Witness. The reintroduction of the Bren 10. The continuing success of the G20.

That's 7 and I've probably missed some. Now, as to the 41. MAG...which I like BTW, but WAY, WAY, more obscure than the 10mm. autolaoder.

Your turn Sport.
Show me the Bren 10. I have been wanting to order one for a while and no dice. You can't count a gun that has not yet been released nor may ever be.

What happened to the Smith and Wesson, 1006, 1076, 610. What happened to the Springfield Omega to name just a few. Where is a Sig, Beretta, or HK 10mm. Basically you have a custom gun maker (les Baer not Les Bayer ) making special runs from time to time. The Delta was dropped a while back and there has been plans to re-introduce it but I have not yet seen it. They were supposed to be doing a 6 inch bull barrel version and then they went back to the standard model. But since the 2009 shot show none are to be seen on dealer shelves. Also the continuing success of the Glock 20. Yea right the 10mm accounts for Glock's lowest amount of gun sales.

Thanks for the laugh sport.
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:07   #128
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Are you going to back up your claims or not?
I mean it's time to drop the talk and walk the walk.
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:12   #129
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
Show me the Bren 10. I have been wanting to order one for a while and no dice. You can't count a gun that has not yet been released nor may ever be.

What happened to the Smith and Wesson, 1006, 1076, 610. What happened to the Springfield Omega to name just a few. Where is a Sig, Beretta, or HK 10mm. Basically you have a custom gun maker (les Baer not Les Bayer ) making special runs from time to time. The Delta was dropped a while back and there has been plans to re-introduce it but I have not yet seen it. They were supposed to be doing a 6 inch bull barrel version and then they went back to the standard model. But since the 2009 shot show none are to be seen on dealer shelves. Also the continuing success of the Glock 20. Yea right the 10mm accounts for Glock's lowest amount of gun sales.

Thanks for the laugh sport.
Your asking about old guns, like that really matters? That's the best you got? Oh and the fact that more and more people are talkin bout 10mm on here which is the largest forum, that of course means nothin'. I love seeing what you try to pass off as logic. So how many other forums out there refuse to take you seriously? Actually, let's do this... is there any that do?
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:13   #130
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
So you're still in college that would explain some things. When you graduate and get some real life under your belt come back and talk to me.
Pat
My textbook is 15 years old...
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:13   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
I was making a pun on the person I was quoting. That went right over your head. Also directing someone to Wikipedia for knowledge is laughable at best.
I have noticed your signature and I am impressed by your credentials. I also would like to thank you for your service.

I have also read many of your contributions here @ CC.

I have the impression that you favor the 9 mm over other calibers. If I am correct in that conclusion I would appreciate you sharing the logic for your regard for the 9mm as a handgun choice. You may have expressed this before. Thanks
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:13   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbala View Post
Are you going to back up your claims or not?
I mean it's time to drop the talk and walk the walk.
Same for you. Back it up. You have made some wild claims about the growth of the 10mm with no proof.
Pat
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:17   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texas 48 View Post
I have noticed your signature and I am impressed by your credentials. I also would like to thank you for your service.

I have also read many of your contributions here @ CC.

I have the impression that you favor the 9 mm over other calibers. If I am correct in that conclusion I would appreciate you sharing the logic for your regard for the 9mm as a handgun choice. You may have expressed this before. Thanks
I don't favor the 9mm over other calibers. Rather I think its a good choice as is the 45 acp, 40sw (in the right platform), The reality is it does not matter that much which caliber you chose. The service calibers are all pretty much equal. Yes there are trade offs. You get a bit more tissue destruction with the 40 and 45 but you also get more recoil and slow shot to shot times.

Here is a great primer on picking a service weapon.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
Service Pistol Duty and Self-Defense Loads
When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:



As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .



Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 160 & 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

----------------------------------------

Basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with the S&W M&P45 or HK45.

Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

------------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
END QUOTE


Its almost laughable how worked up people get over caliber selection. In the end of the day its really not that important. The 9mm is a good choice because it offers good terminal performance in a small package that is easy to shoot and generally more reliable than other semi auto pistol calibers.
Pat
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:19   #134
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Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
Your asking about old guns, like that really matters? That's the best you got? Oh and the fact that more and more people are talkin bout 10mm on here which is the largest forum, that of course means nothin'. I love seeing what you try to pass off as logic. So how many other forums out there refuse to take you seriously? Actually, let's do this... is there any that do?
People talking about the 10mm on Glocktalk. That is proof to you that the 10mm is growing in popularity.
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:22   #135
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Originally Posted by texas 48 View Post
I have noticed your signature and I am impressed by your credentials. I also would like to thank you for your service.

I have also read many of your contributions here @ CC.

I have the impression that you favor the 9 mm over other calibers. If I am correct in that conclusion I would appreciate you sharing the logic for your regard for the 9mm as a handgun choice. You may have expressed this before. Thanks
There you go TEX, you just got a class from the master on choosing a caliber and platform. Be sure to add it to your sig line. I'm sure people will be impressed.
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:24   #136
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
People talking about the 10mm on Glocktalk. That is proof to you that the 10mm is growing in popularity.
Yea, you're right... there couldn't possibly be anything to learn on GT being that it's got several hundred thousands of viewers. I guess there must be more to learn from the five prople in Alaska.
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:30   #137
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Yea, you're right... there couldn't possibly be anything to learn on GT being that it's got several hundred thousands of viewers. I guess there must be more to learn from the five prople in Alaska.
What are prople?

You really think that a small internet forum discussion with a few 10mm threads is indicative of industry trends and sales figures. If the 10mm were so great it would not need "defenders"
Pat
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:32   #138
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There you go TEX, you just got a class from the master on choosing a caliber and platform. Be sure to add it to your sig line. I'm sure people will be impressed.
People often mock in others what they don't have. In your case that is knowledge, training and experience.
Pat
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:38   #139
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People often mock in others what they don't have. In your case that is knowledge, training and experience.
Pat
Got all that, what you know 'bout the Corps? Lemme guess, you had a conversation with a Marine once...
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:46   #140
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Got all that, what you know 'bout the Corps? Lemme guess, you had a conversation with a Marine once...
That seems to be the only thing in your life that you are proud of. That you completed a tour with the Marine Corp. Wow great. I am happy for you. What have you done with your life since then is the real question?
Pat
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