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Old 01-19-2010, 22:00   #26
glock20c10mm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocKWL View Post
You are comparing apples to oranges.
That's not true in the full context of what he was asking.

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There is no BPW.
You yourself have agreed more than once within your posts on GT that BPW does exist. And since we can measure it with a high speed transducer, it clearly exists!

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Read THIS and THIS and buy THIS
I have. What don't you get? Maybe you have unknown misconceptions within your own mind some of the rest of us can help you clear up as I'm sure you don't want to go away not knowing the truth.

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Old 01-20-2010, 00:46   #27
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Originally Posted by thegriz18 View Post
I don't think that they are apples and oranges. They both operate off the same basic principle. Also, I don't consider a 400 grain bullet at 2200 fps slow in the whole scheme of launched projectiles. Let's not forget that some service caliber rounds achieve 1100+ fps. The 357 Sig, 40 S&W, 9mm and 10mm are all capable of achieving 1100-1400 fps within their respective caliber range. High velocity handgun rounds, say, 1100 fps+, should create more BPW than rounds in the 950-fps range. I think that we give weight too much consideration and not enough consideration to speed. We have the technology now to create bullets that are light and can with stand higher velocity and still hold together and penetrate. Handgun rounds may create a BPW that the body can handle, but it will cause a disruption to the system non-the-less.
IMO, you are asking a, "Does BPW exist in service calibers?" question, then subsequenly answering yes. You either think it does or you don't. You appear to think it does. That's opinion.

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I don't think that they are apples and oranges. They both operate off the same basic principle. ....
The real question is whether BPW exists in service calibers. That remains a matter of (heated) debate. The "principle" then is in fact not definatively the same comparing rifle to service pistol if the "BPW" velocity window is not reached. That's why some folks have stated yours is an "apples to oranges" comparison. I agree because comparing 2500+fps (rifle) to 1000-1300fps (service pistol), in terms of BPW, is not "comparable" IMO.


Ultimately, folks base selection off what they:
1) know
2) believe
Always will. Both have varying levels of subjectivity.
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Old 01-20-2010, 18:53   #28
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Most pistol rounds dont cause enough damage. a .45 that passes completely through someone won't do as much damage as a 30-06, even though the 45 is larger.

If you read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FB...y_and_injuries

You'll see Platt and Matix were both shot multiple times in the head and neck with 38 specials, none of those hits stopped the incident. Meanwhile Platt was using a .223 and fbi were getting hit in the arms and such and still suffering fight stopping wounds. One of them got hit in the neck, no fragmenting or yawing the bullet didnt touch the spine or arteries, but the shot still paralyzed him for the duration of the fight.
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Old 01-20-2010, 21:23   #29
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IMO, you are asking a, "Does BPW exist in service calibers?" question, then subsequenly answering yes. You either think it does or you don't. You appear to think it does. That's opinion.
It's not opinion. It has been measured with a high speed pressure transducer from distant locations from the impact area of the subject.

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The real question is whether BPW exists in service calibers.
No, again, it's been measured and will always be able to be measured.
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Old 01-20-2010, 21:23   #30
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You'll see Platt and Matix were both shot multiple times in the head and neck with 38 specials, none of those hits stopped the incident
Actually not true. They were hit multiple times in the body, mostly 9mm & 38sp. The headshots by Morales w/ his 38sp finished the fight. Research it further.
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Old 01-20-2010, 21:28   #31
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Originally Posted by TwinFourFives View Post
If you read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FB...y_and_injuries

You'll see Platt and Matix were both shot multiple times in the head and neck with 38 specials, none of those hits stopped the incident. Meanwhile Platt was using a .223 and fbi were getting hit in the arms and such and still suffering fight stopping wounds. One of them got hit in the neck, no fragmenting or yawing the bullet didnt touch the spine or arteries, but the shot still paralyzed him for the duration of the fight.
Did you know some 10mm loads can produce just as much BPW as some 223 FMJ loads (not downloaded 223s either)?

As for the officers that got hit in the arms and such, if they quit fighting immediately they chose to quit.
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Old 01-20-2010, 23:27   #32
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If our bodies are mostly (~97%) water (tissue), then I don't see how BPW couldn't exist. When you throw a rock in a pond it makes ripples. I don't see how body tissue could be any different.
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Old 01-21-2010, 07:27   #33
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I never said BPW did not exist, it does. But the simple fact that a pressure wave is induced does not equate out to any level of trauma unless the pressure wave is sufficiently intense. Typical SD handgun calibers cannot induce a sufficiently intense pressure waves in a full grown human to impart trauma. Is velocity important? Yes, because higher velocities translate to more penetration and more reliable expansion of expanding bullets.

The existence of a BPW does not mean there is any BPW trauma.

Pressure waves are constantly traveling thru our bodies.
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:02   #34
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Speed Kills, at least for handguns, anyway. What is the difference between hydrostatic shock and BPW? How about small caliber 9mm x 25mm Dillon? It can push a 90 grain bullet upwards of 2000 FPS, but I choose to stay with 10mm caliber instead. Still get great speed (~1300 FPS) and with double the bullet weight and slightly larger diameters. Who wants to carry a rifle for SD anyway if you are not being paid or ordered to do so? My $.02 ain't worth it, so I'm gunna have to charge ya'll a quarter!
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:36   #35
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Originally Posted by 10mmmofo View Post
Speed Kills, at least for handguns, anyway.


Here you go then...
http://www.rbcd.net/Personal%20Defense-%20Ammo.htm

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Old 01-21-2010, 13:24   #36
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DAMN!!! Now that's FAST!! Who shoots that stuff? What about penetration and fragmentation?
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Old 01-21-2010, 13:25   #37
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Could I make Major shooting this through a .25?
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Old 01-21-2010, 14:29   #38
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Originally Posted by 10mmmofo View Post
Could I make Major shooting this through a .25?
Not a chance...actually it gets lower power factor scores.

Example:
RBCD 45acp
90 grain bullet at 2036 fps Muzzle Velocity = 183240 Power Factor
(90 x 2036 = 183240)

American Eagle 45acp
230 grain bullet at 890 fps Muzzle Velocity = 204700 Power Factor
(230 x 890 = 204700)
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Old 01-21-2010, 15:25   #39
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I always wondered what the power factor equation was...thanks. BTW, would you carry ammo that light of weight? I bought DT 135gr 10mm, but I think I'm gunna move up to the 165+ DT, cuz with the data on that ultra-lightweight stuff, and seeing how bad DT 135 frags out, I think im gunna pass, but thanx anyway
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Old 01-21-2010, 15:43   #40
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I always wondered what the power factor equation was...thanks. BTW, would you carry ammo that light of weight? I bought DT 135gr 10mm, but I think I'm gunna move up to the 165+ DT, cuz with the data on that ultra-lightweight stuff, and seeing how bad DT 135 frags out, I think im gunna pass, but thanx anyway
No I do NOT and would NOT!!!

I am absolutely not someone that agrees with the "speed is everything and most important factor even at the expense of size and/or weight" camp. I'm a supporter of the "Big & Heavy & Fast (in that order)" camp. I carry 45acp, 185 grain DPX bullet loaded to +P from CorBon...which is the heaviest DPX bullet for 45acp. I like the DPX because it has performed exceptionally well in tests, combining deep penetration with excellent expansion. It is specifically design to not fragment at all. And it is lead-free.
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Old 01-21-2010, 16:25   #41
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Actually not true. They were hit multiple times in the body, mostly 9mm & 38sp. The headshots by Morales w/ his 38sp finished the fight. Research it further.
The stuff in italics is pasted from the wiki page:

Platt then fired at agents McNeill and Edmundo Mireles across the street. Mireles was hit in the left forearm, creating a severe wound.<sup id="cite_ref-EFOIA_1-2" class="reference">[2]</sup> Platt then pulled back from the window, giving Matix opportunity to fire. Due to collision damage, Matix could only open his door partially, and fired one shotgun round at Grogan and Dove, striking their vehicle. Matix was then shot in the right forearm, probably by Grogan.<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference">[4]</sup> McNeill returned fire with six shots from his revolver, hitting Matix with two rounds in the head and neck. Matix was apparently knocked unconscious by the hits and fired no more rounds.<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference">[5]</sup> McNeill was then shot in the hand, and due to his wound and blood in his revolver's chambers, could not reload.<sup id="cite_ref-EFOIA_1-3" class="reference">[2]</sup>

Matix was Knocked unconcious, but that did not stop the fight because platt was still shooting. Matix got back up later and made his way back to the car.

Platt took up position by the passenger side front fender of the Cutlass. He fired a .357 Magnum revolver at agents Ronald Risner and Gilbert Orrantia, and received another wound when turning to fire at Hanlon, Dove and Grogan. The bullet, fired by Risner or Orrantia, penetrated Platt's right forearm, fractured the radius bone and exited the forearm. This wound caused Platt to drop his revolver.<sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference">[8]</sup> It is estimated that Platt was shot again shortly afterwards, this time by Risner. The bullet penetrated Platt's right upper arm, exited below the armpit and entered his torso, stopping below his shoulder blade. The wound was not serious.<sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference">[9]</sup>




Platt fired one round at Risner and Orrantia's position, wounding Orrantia with shrapnel created by the bullet's passage, and two rounds at McNeill. One round hit McNeill in the neck, causing him to collapse and leaving him paralyzed for several hours.<sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference">[10]</sup>



Platt attempted to start the car. Mireles drew his .357 Magnum revolver, moved parallel to the street and then directly toward Platt and Matix. Mireles fired six rounds at the suspects. The first round missed, hitting the back of the front seat. The second hit the driver's side window post and fragmented, with one small piece hitting Platt in the scalp. The third hit Matix in the face, and fragmented in two, with neither piece causing a serious wound. The fourth hit Matix in the face next to his right eye socket, travelled downward through the facial bones, into the neck, where it entered the spinal column and severed the spinal cord. The fifth hit Matix in the face, penetrated the jaw bone and neck and came to rest by the spinal column.<sup id="cite_ref-16" class="reference">[17]</sup> Mireles reached the driver's side door, extended his revolver through the window, and fired his sixth shot at Platt. The bullet penetrated Platt's chest and bruised the spinal cord, ending the gunfight.<sup id="cite_ref-17" class="reference">[18]</sup>


also: Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gun shot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were completely drug-free at the time of their deaths.<sup id="cite_ref-19" class="reference">[20]</sup>
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Old 01-21-2010, 16:34   #42
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It's not opinion. It has been measured with a high speed pressure transducer from distant locations from the impact area of the subject.

No, again, it's been measured and will always be able to be measured.
Come on now... I think the context is very clear in this thread, and I think you are clear as well: Does BPW have a reliable effect in service calibers?

The thread context is pretty clear to me, and was clear IMO in my full reply, of which some you omited in my quote. So, I added a bit of emphasis below to what I said above to be sure you'd not miss it the second time around:
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Originally Posted by coal View Post
... The "principle" then is in fact not definatively the same comparing rifle to service pistol if the "BPW" velocity window is not reached. ...
The fundamental question is not whether BPW exists at all. The real question, of which I think we're all clear, is: Do service calibers travel fast enough for BPW to have a reliable effect? The answer to that question is certainly not definative, and it appears unlikely. Me personally, I think BPW is not a proven reliable mechanism in service calibers and it's apples-to-oranges comparing to rifles.

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Old 01-21-2010, 16:35   #43
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Old 01-21-2010, 16:38   #44
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I think any shockwave, or temporary cavity will have some effect from the carry cartridges, 9mm, 38, 45, 40 357. I've never been shot by one, though.

Even if the temporary cavitation doesn't destroy organs like from a high powered rifle, i'm sure it would have a painfull effect. If ones lungs or what not get moved out of place very quickly and settle back down, it will probably hurt like heck.
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Old 01-21-2010, 17:53   #45
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The term "ballistic pressure wave" was coined by a self-admitted amatuer/crackpot and has no place in a serious discussion of wound ballistics. Handgun bullets that generate approximately less than 1000 ft-lbs of KE only wound via the direct crush of the passage of the bullet. Barring a psychological response, this is fairly conclusive.

Velocity is a <VERY>good thing. Unfortunately, enough velocity can not be generated from any of the "service calibers" that will allow for relaible wounding via the TC created by a projectile's passage alone and certainly will not create magical, mythical "ballistic pressure waves".
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Old 01-21-2010, 18:14   #46
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About the time when most police were carrying a 38S&W or 38 Special
Henry Ford said You can have a model T in any color you want as long as its Black,,,, OH how times have changed,,




Please carry on,
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Old 01-21-2010, 20:10   #47
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The term "ballistic pressure wave" was coined by a self-admitted amatuer/crackpot and has no place in a serious discussion of wound ballistics. Handgun bullets that generate approximately less than 1000 ft-lbs of KE only wound via the direct crush of the passage of the bullet. Barring a psychological response, this is fairly conclusive.

Velocity is a <VERY>good thing. Unfortunately, enough velocity can not be generated from any of the "service calibers" that will allow for relaible wounding via the TC created by a projectile's passage alone and certainly will not create magical, mythical "ballistic pressure waves".
OK, I'm not picking on this one post, but in general the conclusion I can draw from the crowd that either says BPW does not exist, or thinks that handgun velocities aren't high enough to cause BPW, and bullets only wound from direct crush, is that we should all use FMJ bullets for SD. If a bullet's only wounding mechanism is direct crush, then why fol around with an extra .1-.15 inches of diameter, sacrificing greatly needed penetration, because we want to crush as much as possible. Seems to me that if BPW has no effect at all in handguns we should all replace our JHP ammo with FMJ because penetration is the number one most important factor to direct crush, or any wounding in general. If the bullet doesn't reach vitals it probably won't make a stopping wound. So let's not mess around with shooting through doors or glass, or arms with JHP's, cut the crap, and carry FMJ. As to over penetration, well, I think it's paranoia. Let's worry about hitting our target first, then worry about over penetration. Besides, a service caliber handgun bullet traveling through a human body will probably loose so much velocity that it isn't lethal for very long after it exits, if it exits.
I guess all this crap about HST's and Ranger T's and DPX is just that, crap.
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Old 01-21-2010, 21:07   #48
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OK, I'm not picking on this one post, but in general the conclusion I can draw from the crowd that either says BPW does not exist, or thinks that handgun velocities aren't high enough to cause BPW, and bullets only wound from direct crush, is that we should all use FMJ bullets for SD. If a bullet's only wounding mechanism is direct crush, then why fol around with an extra .1-.15 inches of diameter, sacrificing greatly needed penetration, because we want to crush as much as possible. Seems to me that if BPW has no effect at all in handguns we should all replace our JHP ammo with FMJ because penetration is the number one most important factor to direct crush, or any wounding in general. If the bullet doesn't reach vitals it probably won't make a stopping wound. So let's not mess around with shooting through doors or glass, or arms with JHP's, cut the crap, and carry FMJ. As to over penetration, well, I think it's paranoia. Let's worry about hitting our target first, then worry about over penetration. Besides, a service caliber handgun bullet traveling through a human body will probably loose so much velocity that it isn't lethal for very long after it exits, if it exits.
I guess all this crap about HST's and Ranger T's and DPX is just that, crap.
I assume some things are obvious, but obviosuly not.

The answer to your question above (i.e. why HP ammo) is that:
- Critical tissues lies within a "window" in the human body. Call it ~12", ~13", <14", <16" ... whatever, it's a limited "window": Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo. Pentration beyond that "window", or that exist the body, both FAR more common with FMJ, is meaningless.

Also:
- The difference in expanded diameter with modern HP is typically 0.3+", and even greater when you consider expanded surface area: Load Data and Caliber Talk. And, surface area is what really matters relative to expansion.

Penetration beyond that "window", or that exits the body, is not "crushing" critical tissue. For service calibers, all that matters is what's crushed/destroyed within that critical tissue "window", and how critcal that tissue is.

Modern HP offers reliable expansion and reliable penetration. A .355" object that expands to 0.65+" and passes through 12" of tissue will be more likely to effect reliable incapacitation than an identical 12" path of a .355" object. There are no guarantees, but that concept is pretty simple.
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Old 01-21-2010, 21:10   #49
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I was being sarcastic. But still, SHTF, like Katrina, I'm loading up with FMJ.
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Old 01-21-2010, 22:54   #50
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Hey, is .357 Sig more effective than 9mm?
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