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Old 01-19-2010, 17:35   #21
fredj338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegriz18 View Post
You're totally wrong. That wasn't my logic. I required the bullets to be the same weight. I said speed was very important, not everything.
Unless the bullet is designed to perform well in that vel envelope, vel. means little. Shape & composition matter more than the vel. on impact. Stable solids hitting @ say 2200fps don't do the same damage as heavy siofts @ the same vel. Increasing the vel of the solid at that point doesn't destroy more tissue. If it hits bone, that again changes the result. It's not just as simple as more vel is better.
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Old 01-19-2010, 22:47   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dosei View Post
So...have you ever given this a read:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Speed can be important...if in excess of 2000 fps. For typical SD handgun calibers, speed only equates to better penetration and better expansion of soft-point/hollow-point projectiles.
I don't know what you think you read in that link, but I for one would like to know in the context you're claiming.

The ONLY place in the link you posted where 2000 fps is brought up is in direct relation to fragments of a bullet at that velocity actually penetrating tissue far enough outside the direct path of the main projectile to inflict enough damage to be worthwhile. And the speed and amount at which the permanent wound cavity expands outward. Nothing is brought up in terms of a ballistic pressure wave or any other terms many wrongly associate with BPW (hydrostatic shock...).

Quote:
BPW trauma is a lot like a sonic boom...it doesn't exist until something is going fast enough.
This clearly shows you're not up to speed with Dr. Courtney's theory of BPW. BPW trauma is NOTHING like a sonic boom. BPW is pressure in psi measured at a location well beyond the temporary wound cavity produced by the projectile as it penetrates producing a pressure wave that continues traveling outside the temporary cavity.

So...have you ever given this a read:
http://<b>http://arxiv1.library.corn...2107v1.pdf</b>
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Old 01-19-2010, 22:49   #23
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Originally Posted by thegriz18 View Post
You're totally wrong. That wasn't my logic. I required the bullets to be the same weight. I said speed was very important, not everything.
I was wondering where dosei got that from too, because it certainly wasn't from your post.

Good Shooting,
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Old 01-19-2010, 22:51   #24
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I suspect this thread will soon be closed, looking at recent Glock Talk history.

A declaration that the possibility of BPW effect in handgun calibers is a myth has been made.

So we'll have no further discussion, debate, or introduction of scientific studies, pro or con, which only serve to confuse the unwashed masses.
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Old 01-19-2010, 22:55   #25
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Originally Posted by dosei View Post
When hunting dangerous game...what do hunters look for...they look for the biggest, heaviest bullets being pushed as fast as possible in a gun they can carry and shoot accurately.
How does what dangerous game hunters choose for a round have anything to do what we choose for SD against BGs???

Doesn't recoil of the 460 Wby Mag automatically rub you the wrong way against BGs because of over penetration and recoil hindering follow up shots? Or no?
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Old 01-19-2010, 23:00   #26
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Originally Posted by DocKWL View Post
You are comparing apples to oranges.
That's not true in the full context of what he was asking.

Quote:
There is no BPW.
You yourself have agreed more than once within your posts on GT that BPW does exist. And since we can measure it with a high speed transducer, it clearly exists!

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Read THIS and THIS and buy THIS
I have. What don't you get? Maybe you have unknown misconceptions within your own mind some of the rest of us can help you clear up as I'm sure you don't want to go away not knowing the truth.

We're here to help,
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:46   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegriz18 View Post
I don't think that they are apples and oranges. They both operate off the same basic principle. Also, I don't consider a 400 grain bullet at 2200 fps slow in the whole scheme of launched projectiles. Let's not forget that some service caliber rounds achieve 1100+ fps. The 357 Sig, 40 S&W, 9mm and 10mm are all capable of achieving 1100-1400 fps within their respective caliber range. High velocity handgun rounds, say, 1100 fps+, should create more BPW than rounds in the 950-fps range. I think that we give weight too much consideration and not enough consideration to speed. We have the technology now to create bullets that are light and can with stand higher velocity and still hold together and penetrate. Handgun rounds may create a BPW that the body can handle, but it will cause a disruption to the system non-the-less.
IMO, you are asking a, "Does BPW exist in service calibers?" question, then subsequenly answering yes. You either think it does or you don't. You appear to think it does. That's opinion.

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Originally Posted by thegriz18 View Post
I don't think that they are apples and oranges. They both operate off the same basic principle. ....
The real question is whether BPW exists in service calibers. That remains a matter of (heated) debate. The "principle" then is in fact not definatively the same comparing rifle to service pistol if the "BPW" velocity window is not reached. That's why some folks have stated yours is an "apples to oranges" comparison. I agree because comparing 2500+fps (rifle) to 1000-1300fps (service pistol), in terms of BPW, is not "comparable" IMO.


Ultimately, folks base selection off what they:
1) know
2) believe
Always will. Both have varying levels of subjectivity.
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Old 01-20-2010, 19:53   #28
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Most pistol rounds dont cause enough damage. a .45 that passes completely through someone won't do as much damage as a 30-06, even though the 45 is larger.

If you read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FB...y_and_injuries

You'll see Platt and Matix were both shot multiple times in the head and neck with 38 specials, none of those hits stopped the incident. Meanwhile Platt was using a .223 and fbi were getting hit in the arms and such and still suffering fight stopping wounds. One of them got hit in the neck, no fragmenting or yawing the bullet didnt touch the spine or arteries, but the shot still paralyzed him for the duration of the fight.
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Old 01-20-2010, 22:23   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coal View Post
IMO, you are asking a, "Does BPW exist in service calibers?" question, then subsequenly answering yes. You either think it does or you don't. You appear to think it does. That's opinion.
It's not opinion. It has been measured with a high speed pressure transducer from distant locations from the impact area of the subject.

Quote:
The real question is whether BPW exists in service calibers.
No, again, it's been measured and will always be able to be measured.
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Old 01-20-2010, 22:23   #30
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You'll see Platt and Matix were both shot multiple times in the head and neck with 38 specials, none of those hits stopped the incident
Actually not true. They were hit multiple times in the body, mostly 9mm & 38sp. The headshots by Morales w/ his 38sp finished the fight. Research it further.
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Old 01-20-2010, 22:28   #31
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Originally Posted by TwinFourFives View Post
If you read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FB...y_and_injuries

You'll see Platt and Matix were both shot multiple times in the head and neck with 38 specials, none of those hits stopped the incident. Meanwhile Platt was using a .223 and fbi were getting hit in the arms and such and still suffering fight stopping wounds. One of them got hit in the neck, no fragmenting or yawing the bullet didnt touch the spine or arteries, but the shot still paralyzed him for the duration of the fight.
Did you know some 10mm loads can produce just as much BPW as some 223 FMJ loads (not downloaded 223s either)?

As for the officers that got hit in the arms and such, if they quit fighting immediately they chose to quit.
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Old 01-21-2010, 00:27   #32
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If our bodies are mostly (~97%) water (tissue), then I don't see how BPW couldn't exist. When you throw a rock in a pond it makes ripples. I don't see how body tissue could be any different.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:27   #33
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I never said BPW did not exist, it does. But the simple fact that a pressure wave is induced does not equate out to any level of trauma unless the pressure wave is sufficiently intense. Typical SD handgun calibers cannot induce a sufficiently intense pressure waves in a full grown human to impart trauma. Is velocity important? Yes, because higher velocities translate to more penetration and more reliable expansion of expanding bullets.

The existence of a BPW does not mean there is any BPW trauma.

Pressure waves are constantly traveling thru our bodies.
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Old 01-21-2010, 13:02   #34
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Speed Kills, at least for handguns, anyway. What is the difference between hydrostatic shock and BPW? How about small caliber 9mm x 25mm Dillon? It can push a 90 grain bullet upwards of 2000 FPS, but I choose to stay with 10mm caliber instead. Still get great speed (~1300 FPS) and with double the bullet weight and slightly larger diameters. Who wants to carry a rifle for SD anyway if you are not being paid or ordered to do so? My $.02 ain't worth it, so I'm gunna have to charge ya'll a quarter!
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Old 01-21-2010, 13:36   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10mmmofo View Post
Speed Kills, at least for handguns, anyway.


Here you go then...
http://www.rbcd.net/Personal%20Defense-%20Ammo.htm

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Old 01-21-2010, 14:24   #36
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DAMN!!! Now that's FAST!! Who shoots that stuff? What about penetration and fragmentation?
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Old 01-21-2010, 14:25   #37
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Could I make Major shooting this through a .25?
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Old 01-21-2010, 15:29   #38
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Originally Posted by 10mmmofo View Post
Could I make Major shooting this through a .25?
Not a chance...actually it gets lower power factor scores.

Example:
RBCD 45acp
90 grain bullet at 2036 fps Muzzle Velocity = 183240 Power Factor
(90 x 2036 = 183240)

American Eagle 45acp
230 grain bullet at 890 fps Muzzle Velocity = 204700 Power Factor
(230 x 890 = 204700)
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Old 01-21-2010, 16:25   #39
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I always wondered what the power factor equation was...thanks. BTW, would you carry ammo that light of weight? I bought DT 135gr 10mm, but I think I'm gunna move up to the 165+ DT, cuz with the data on that ultra-lightweight stuff, and seeing how bad DT 135 frags out, I think im gunna pass, but thanx anyway
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Old 01-21-2010, 16:43   #40
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Originally Posted by 10mmmofo View Post
I always wondered what the power factor equation was...thanks. BTW, would you carry ammo that light of weight? I bought DT 135gr 10mm, but I think I'm gunna move up to the 165+ DT, cuz with the data on that ultra-lightweight stuff, and seeing how bad DT 135 frags out, I think im gunna pass, but thanx anyway
No I do NOT and would NOT!!!

I am absolutely not someone that agrees with the "speed is everything and most important factor even at the expense of size and/or weight" camp. I'm a supporter of the "Big & Heavy & Fast (in that order)" camp. I carry 45acp, 185 grain DPX bullet loaded to +P from CorBon...which is the heaviest DPX bullet for 45acp. I like the DPX because it has performed exceptionally well in tests, combining deep penetration with excellent expansion. It is specifically design to not fragment at all. And it is lead-free.
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