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Old 01-22-2010, 05:34   #51
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Old 01-22-2010, 10:05   #52
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Originally Posted by dosei View Post
I never said BPW did not exist, it does.

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Typical SD handgun calibers cannot induce a sufficiently intense pressure waves in a full grown human to impart trauma.
What fact/theory are you basing this on?
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The existence of a BPW does not mean there is any BPW trauma.
Who said it does? Are you not aware of the probabilities that have been worked up thus far toward the level of BPW aiding in incapacitation in under 5 seconds???

500psi = 15%
700psi = 50%
1000psi = 75%
1300psi = 90%

These probabilities are based on an unobstructed hit to the center of the chest that penetrate 10" or more for given pressure wave magnitudes. The accuracy of the predictions are estimated to be roughly 10%.

Examples of rounds that produce varying levels of the above probabilities:

9mm 124gr standard pressure HST = 501psi
9mm 127gr +P+ Winchester Ranger = 691psi
9mm 115gr +P+ Winchester Ranger = 1023psi
10mm 135gr Double Tap Ammo = 1332psi


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Pressure waves are constantly traveling thru our bodies.
At +500psi??? I don't know what you do in daily life, but in mine, no pressure wave has ever reached my brain at a magnatude of 400psi or higher. You statement is true, but holds no water in the context you tried to use it.


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Old 01-22-2010, 10:10   #53
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
Are you not aware of the probabilities that have been worked up thus far toward the level of BPW aiding in incapacitation in under 5 seconds???


Oh...that's good...I almost wet my pants from laughing so hard...

You should do stand-up comedy at gun shows...
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Old 01-22-2010, 10:16   #54
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:Do service calibers travel fast enough for BPW to have a reliable effect? The answer to that question is certainly not definative, and it appears unlikely.
A good amount of scientific study including and beyond Dr. Courtney's work show the "unlikely" would definately be a poor choice of wording in general on your part.
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Old 01-22-2010, 10:19   #55
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Oh...that's good...I almost wet my pants from laughing so hard...

You should do stand-up comedy at gun shows...
Somehow I'm not surprised you have no answer back to my post. I guess you'ld have to have knowledge on the subject to speak intelligently about it. That's ok, you're learning. Anything else you need me to clear up for you?

I'm here to help,
Craig
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Old 01-22-2010, 10:49   #56
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
Somehow I'm not surprised you have no answer back to my post. I guess you'ld have to have knowledge on the subject to speak intelligently about it. That's ok, you're learning. Anything else you need me to clear up for you?

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Boxers have been tested, pro's can deliver punches in the 900 psi range. So for 12 rounds, two men deliver/receive hits to the body that...per your claims...should have them dropping in 5 seconds or less.
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Old 01-22-2010, 13:45   #57
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Originally Posted by dosei View Post
Boxers have been tested, pro's can deliver punches in the 900 psi range. So for 12 rounds, two men deliver/receive hits to the body that...per your claims...should have them dropping in 5 seconds or less.
I guess you missed the following in post #52 where I said; These probabilities are based on an unobstructed hit to the center of the chest that penetrate 10" or more for given pressure wave magnitudes. The accuracy of the predictions are estimated to be roughly 10%.

Non penetrating blunt force hits to the outside of the human body wouldn't be expected to have them dropping in 5 seconds or less, and if it's happened, it's probably an extremely small percentage of the time (like less than 1%).

Anything else?


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Old 01-22-2010, 13:54   #58
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Originally Posted by DocKWL View Post
The term "ballistic pressure wave" was coined by a self-admitted amatuer/crackpot and has no place in a serious discussion of wound ballistics.


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Handgun bullets that generate approximately less than 1000 ft-lbs of KE only wound via the direct crush of the passage of the bullet. Barring a psychological response, this is fairly conclusive.
Where are you getting the 1000 ft-lbs number from?

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Velocity is a <VERY>good thing. Unfortunately, enough velocity can not be generated from any of the "service calibers" that will allow for relaible wounding via the TC created by a projectile's passage alone and certainly will not create magical, mythical "ballistic pressure waves".
TCs are only indirectly related to peak ballistic pressure wave. You can't have one without the other, but that's about the closest they relate.

Besides that velocity is only part of the tail that can lead to a higher peak ballistic pressure wave. There are rounds at lower velocities than others that produce a higher PBPW than some of the faster ones.
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Old 01-22-2010, 14:30   #59
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
I guess you missed the following in post #52 where I said; These probabilities are based on an unobstructed hit to the center of the chest that penetrate 10" or more for given pressure wave magnitudes. The accuracy of the predictions are estimated to be roughly 10%.

Non penetrating blunt force hits to the outside of the human body wouldn't be expected to have them dropping in 5 seconds or less, and if it's happened, it's probably an extremely small percentage of the time (like less than 1%).

Anything else?


Craig
No, I did not miss the part where you conceded to the fact that penetration is key (and still you try to dodge that fact that it is the damage caused by said penetration that drops a person, not the "pressure wave trauma"). But from the stand point of "Pressure Wave Trauma", that number is completely irrelevant. I'm 6' tall & weigh 200 lbs...and I'm 10", front to back (grin...that's right, I'm a full 10" thick...☺). So the emanation point of the "pressure wave" per your data would be the front or back of a person...much like the boxing example. The surface of the body is also the part most susceptible to such trauma, since it is covered with sensitive nerve endings that would carry the "traumatic pulse" of the impact to the brain and shut it down (like stun grenades...although, IMHO, it is the "pressure wave" damaging the ear drum and disrupting the fluid in the inner ear that is the primary incapacitator). The body is not designed to notice or react to internal pressure waves. Not to mention the fact that 5 seconds is an unacceptably slow incapacitation time for SD purposes. I've dumped a full magazine into their chest cavity by then and their heart now resembles road kill...that "incapacitating pressure wave" is about as useful as teets on a boar.
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:51   #60
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No, I did not miss the part where you conceded to the fact that penetration is key (and still you try to dodge that fact that it is the damage caused by said penetration that drops a person, not the "pressure wave trauma").
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. I don't know if we're all the way there yet in terms of understanding where the other is coming from but we're definately getting close.

I'm not positive, but I think you're misunderstanding what I meant by penetration depth being an important factor directly in terms of the peak ballistic pressure wave magnatude.

If I'm understanding you correctly (correct me if I'm wrong) you're refering to penetration depth (permanent crush cavity) and PBPW (psi of PBPW) as two separate entities toward incapacitation (reguardless if you believe a BPW can incapacitate at all), and they are.

The point I was trying to make is that the PBPW must occure as close to the center of the thoratic cavity as possible to expect the probabilities I listed in an above post. If a bullet only penetrates, lets say 7", the PBPW may happen too early in the wound track to expect the effect of PBPW to work in incapacitating a BG in less than 5 seconds (whether you believe it's possible or not is beside the point here).

Then, on top of that, yes, whatever the penetration depth was, is a permanent crush cavity that does incapacitate at some point, but not forcingly till after a minimum of ~ 15 seconds, and more likely ~ 30 seconds to a minute or more when oxygen loss through blood loss occures to enough of an extent to render the BG harmless.

With that said, is it now obvious to you I wasn't dodging anything, but that we didn't fully understand where the other was coming from in what we were thinking we needed to get across? I certainly am well aware the permanent crush cavity, left untreated through simple blood loss or vital organ impairment, will usually at some point incapacitate a BG.

Again, the idea behind BPW is to incapacitate in under 5 seconds. Permanent crush cavities by themselves, except when disrupting the CNS, will never incapacitate in less than 5 seconds no matter how many holes you shoot into the BG.

NOW, the BG may choose by his own free will to stop fighting, BUT until oxygen loss drops enough through blood loss, he doesn't have to, no matter if you've completely shredded his heart or lungs or whatever, as it takes 15 seconds or more (the vast majority of the time, more) for the brain to use up the oxygen it already had from the time you put the first hole in him.

I personally choose to choose an SD round that has a fair capability of incapacitating the BG in less than 5 seconds with the first shot, assuming good shot placement (thoratic cavity), with the chances going up as I put more rounds into the BG IF POSSIBLE.

Do you realize how many BGs have been shot in the chest with neither the lungs or heart being hit, sometimes even after multiple shots? You can practice for excellent shot placement all day long, but at the end of the day there is no guarantee a COM hit will result in either the heart or lungs being taken out.
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But from the stand point of "Pressure Wave Trauma", that number is completely irrelevant. I'm 6' tall & weigh 200 lbs...and I'm 10", front to back (grin...that's right, I'm a full 10" thick...☺). So the emanation point of the "pressure wave" per your data would be the front or back of a person...much like the boxing example.
No. With JHP handgun bullets, the PEAK ballistic pressure wave will never happen at the front or back, it will happen somewhere in the middle when retarding forces of the body on the bullet are greatest, which is after the JHP bullet expands (after entry) but before it comes to a stop if it does come to a stop, where most energy will already have been lost in relation to psi of the ballistic pressure wave.
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The surface of the body is also the part most susceptible to such trauma, since it is covered with sensitive nerve endings that would carry the "traumatic pulse" of the impact to the brain and shut it down (like stun grenades...although, IMHO, it is the "pressure wave" damaging the ear drum and disrupting the fluid in the inner ear that is the primary incapacitator).
No. We're not refering to a "traumatic pulse". We are refering to a pressure wave based on a ballistic source occuring within a human body. I question where you got the term "traumatic pulse" from? Did you make it up, or was it used in some literature you read or were told about? The stun grenades I have no comment on.
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The body is not designed to notice or react to internal pressure waves.
Really??? Well I guess concussions aren't possible then.
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Not to mention the fact that 5 seconds is an unacceptably slow incapacitation time for SD purposes.
Really??? I hope for your sake you either take out the BGs CNS, or, he chooses to quit fighting, because if not, you're in for a big surprise!!! Is less than 5 seconds not a whole lot better than 15 seconds up to minutes?
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I've dumped a full magazine into their chest cavity by then and their heart now resembles road kill...
I'll take that as sarcasm for now.
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that "incapacitating pressure wave" is about as useful as teets on a boar.
If I wasn't aware of what you aren't in relation to Dr. Courtney's theory of BPW, I would think the same thing!!!


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Craig
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Old 01-23-2010, 11:51   #61
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OK, I'm not picking on this one post, but in general the conclusion I can draw from the crowd that either says BPW does not exist, or thinks that handgun velocities aren't high enough to cause BPW, and bullets only wound from direct crush, is that we should all use FMJ bullets for SD. If a bullet's only wounding mechanism is direct crush, then why fol around with an extra .1-.15 inches of diameter, sacrificing greatly needed penetration, because we want to crush as much as possible. Seems to me that if BPW has no effect at all in handguns we should all replace our JHP ammo with FMJ because penetration is the number one most important factor to direct crush, or any wounding in general. If the bullet doesn't reach vitals it probably won't make a stopping wound. So let's not mess around with shooting through doors or glass, or arms with JHP's, cut the crap, and carry FMJ. As to over penetration, well, I think it's paranoia. Let's worry about hitting our target first, then worry about over penetration. Besides, a service caliber handgun bullet traveling through a human body will probably loose so much velocity that it isn't lethal for very long after it exits, if it exits.
I guess all this crap about HST's and Ranger T's and DPX is just that, crap.


The way i see it, fmj would be the superior choice for stopping the fight instantly. They have a better chance of hitting the central nervous system because they penetrate farther. However, with the hollow points, the organs are more likely to be damaged or destroyed because of the depression in the bullet nose. If you have a fmj bullet it might push stuff out of the way as it travels, but the little indention on HPs can cut a good path, especially if they expand some. That would give the round more resistance on its way to a CNS hit though, if it expanded.

I do think over penetration is hyped. If there's someone you dont want to shoot standing right behind the target, using a jhp isn't a smart way to justify the shot. It is irresponsible to assume the jhp wont go through the person and hit someone standing right behind them.
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Old 01-23-2010, 16:37   #62
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The way i see it, fmj would be the superior choice for stopping the fight instantly. They have a better chance of hitting the central nervous system because they penetrate farther. However, with the hollow points, the organs are more likely to be damaged or destroyed because of the depression in the bullet nose. If you have a fmj bullet it might push stuff out of the way as it travels, but the little indention on HPs can cut a good path, especially if they expand some. That would give the round more resistance on its way to a CNS hit though, if it expanded.

I do think over penetration is hyped. If there's someone you dont want to shoot standing right behind the target, using a jhp isn't a smart way to justify the shot. It is irresponsible to assume the jhp wont go through the person and hit someone standing right behind them.


Other inherent problems with FMJ is that they commonly don't penetrate in a straight line through an actual human body. They like to veer off course and follow the path of least resistance, and more easily ricochet off bone. So even if you shot is dead center on a straight on hit at the BG perfectly lined up for the spine, doesn't mean you'll hit it anyway. Now you add a moving target to the equation, and hoping to hit that 1.5" or so wide spine starts looking really bleak unless you simply get lucky.

Yeah, think I'll stick with JHP too!
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Old 01-23-2010, 17:51   #63
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Speed matters! everybody agrees a .357 magnum 125 gr JHP GD @ 1335 fps is an excellent defensive load!
Then when they are going to choose between two 9mm loads: a 147 gr jhp GD @ 982 fps and a 127 gr +p+ Win Ranger @ 1230 fps, they say they prefer the 147 gr load... The 127 gr load is only 100 fps shy of the magnum load but the 147 gr load is 350 fps away from the magnun load... and all of them are exactly the same caliber (diameter)...
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Old 01-24-2010, 15:19   #64
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Speed matters! everybody agrees a .357 magnum 125 gr JHP GD @ 1335 fps is an excellent defensive load!
Then when they are going to choose between two 9mm loads: a 147 gr jhp GD @ 982 fps and a 127 gr +p+ Win Ranger @ 1230 fps, they say they prefer the 147 gr load... The 127 gr load is only 100 fps shy of the magnum load but the 147 gr load is 350 fps away from the magnun load... and all of them are exactly the same caliber (diameter)...
Shhh, that makes sense......
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Old 01-24-2010, 15:29   #65
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Shhh, that makes sense......
What makes sense? If the .357 Magnum is that good, why isn't everyone using it? If the 357 SIG was designed to mimic the Magnum's performance, why is the .40 S&W the runaway favorite?
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Old 01-24-2010, 16:44   #66
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40 smith and wesson is a versatile caliber, for the platform it can be used in. Common loads can be light and fast in the 9mm realm, or slower and heavier such in the 45 acp realm, but you can still hold 15 rounds of 180 grain .4 slugs in the common platforms. There are some dandy solid lead 200+ grain loads for .40 that will hit fast and be effective against four legged predators and hogs. I do not think all the guns are made to handle these loads reliably.
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Old 01-24-2010, 16:52   #67
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What makes sense? If the .357 Magnum is that good, why isn't everyone using it? If the 357 SIG was designed to mimic the Magnum's performance, why is the .40 S&W the runaway favorite?
Just a guess here, but maybe the FBI got carried away with the downloaded 10mm and jumped at the .40S&W before the .357sig was created.

I think the .357sig is on a positive uptrend with both LEO and the civilian population since the caliber's favorable comparison to the legendary 125-grain .357 Magnum round is proving out.

Now the LEO/civilian population have the .357sig and the .40S&W plus the 10mm the FBI originally wanted. Choice is good.
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Old 01-24-2010, 16:54   #68
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40 smith and wesson is a versatile caliber, for the platform it can be used in. Common loads can be light and fast in the 9mm realm, or slower and heavier such in the 45 acp realm, but you can still hold 15 rounds of 180 grain .4 slugs in the common platforms. There are some dandy solid lead 200+ grain loads for .40 that will hit fast and be effective against four legged predators and hogs. I do not think all the guns are made to handle these loads reliably.
Right, and a lot of .40S&W pistols can easily convert to .357sig, which provides comparable ballistics to the legendary .357 Magnum round but with double capacity.

Like I say, choice is good.
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Old 01-24-2010, 17:01   #69
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Just a guess here, but maybe the FBI got carried away with the downloaded 10mm and jumped at the .40S&W before the .357sig was created.

I think the .357sig is on a positive uptrend with both LEO and the civilian population since the caliber's favorable comparison to the legendary 125-grain .357 Magnum round is proving out.

Now the LEO/civilian population have the .357sig and the .40S&W plus the 10mm the FBI originally wanted. Choice is good.
All you need now are the facts to support your statement.

The FBI didn't "jump" into anything. They got the performance they were seeking with the .40 S&W. Why would they choose the high velocity SIG round when velocity is what they were trending away from?
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Old 01-24-2010, 17:07   #70
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All you need now are the facts to support your statement.


This has gotta be one of the greatest one liners that I've ever read. What makes it even funnier is that it is true.
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Old 01-24-2010, 17:12   #71
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All you need now are the facts to support your statement.

The FBI didn't "jump" into anything. They got the performance they were seeking with the .40 S&W. Why would they choose the high velocity SIG round when velocity is what they were trending away from?
Because the Sig round didn't exist yet! Besides, the above post is correct. People rave about 125 grain .357 Magnum, and then choose 147 grain 9mm, which makes zero sense. and the FBI wasn't trending away from velocity. They wanted heavy and fast. The reason we have the 40 S&W is due to the fact that not many agents could control full power 10mm loads in rapid fire. From full power 10mm we got 10mm lite, then S&W figured out they could take the 10mm lite load, shorten the case, make it fit in 9mm sized weapons and wham, we now have the 40 S&W. So the FBI really didn't get the performance they wanted. They wanted full power 10mm. They didn't get it due to human ability factors. Full power 10mm loads do more damage in target than the same exact bullet weight and design in 40 S&W.
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Old 01-24-2010, 17:13   #72
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All you need now are the facts to support your statement.

The FBI didn't "jump" into anything. They got the performance they were seeking with the .40 S&W. Why would they choose the high velocity SIG round when velocity is what they were trending away from?
If I am not mistaken, a number of LEA's have gone to .357 Sig. I believe TX DPS, NJSP, NMSP, Dallas Police just to name a few. I'm sure there are others.
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Old 01-24-2010, 18:23   #73
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Because the Sig round didn't exist yet! Besides, the above post is correct. People rave about 125 grain .357 Magnum, and then choose 147 grain 9mm, which makes zero sense. and the FBI wasn't trending away from velocity. They wanted heavy and fast. The reason we have the 40 S&W is due to the fact that not many agents could control full power 10mm loads in rapid fire. From full power 10mm we got 10mm lite, then S&W figured out they could take the 10mm lite load, shorten the case, make it fit in 9mm sized weapons and wham, we now have the 40 S&W. So the FBI really didn't get the performance they wanted. They wanted full power 10mm. They didn't get it due to human ability factors. Full power 10mm loads to more damage in target than the same exact bullet weight and design in 40 S&W.
Your facts are skewed and charged by emotion. Read the link provided objectively.

READ THIS (PDF file)

It will also serve you well to read and understand THIS.
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Old 01-24-2010, 18:26   #74
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If I am not mistaken, a number of LEA's have gone to .357 Sig. I believe TX DPS, NJSP, NMSP, Dallas Police just to name a few. I'm sure there are others.
Yesterday's news. Please cite new police organizations (say within the last two years), procurements, and sales figures.

The LEA's you cite adopted the caliber years ago.
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Old 01-24-2010, 18:39   #75
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That link you posted to Firearms Tactical is the test results, not the history of the 10mm. The link says nothing about the evolution of the 10mm, which is what I am talking about. Do some research and look it up. Read this link,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto which has all the cites in it. The 10mm lite load, which was "best" was only issued because the FBI Firearms Training Unit deemed it uncontrollable for average agents. The 10mm Lite, was NOT what the FBI wanted.

And that second link is from 1989. Dude, its the year 2010 a lot of things have changed since then.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42