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Old 01-21-2010, 17:25   #41
TwinFourFives
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Actually not true. They were hit multiple times in the body, mostly 9mm & 38sp. The headshots by Morales w/ his 38sp finished the fight. Research it further.
The stuff in italics is pasted from the wiki page:

Platt then fired at agents McNeill and Edmundo Mireles across the street. Mireles was hit in the left forearm, creating a severe wound.<sup id="cite_ref-EFOIA_1-2" class="reference">[2]</sup> Platt then pulled back from the window, giving Matix opportunity to fire. Due to collision damage, Matix could only open his door partially, and fired one shotgun round at Grogan and Dove, striking their vehicle. Matix was then shot in the right forearm, probably by Grogan.<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference">[4]</sup> McNeill returned fire with six shots from his revolver, hitting Matix with two rounds in the head and neck. Matix was apparently knocked unconscious by the hits and fired no more rounds.<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference">[5]</sup> McNeill was then shot in the hand, and due to his wound and blood in his revolver's chambers, could not reload.<sup id="cite_ref-EFOIA_1-3" class="reference">[2]</sup>

Matix was Knocked unconcious, but that did not stop the fight because platt was still shooting. Matix got back up later and made his way back to the car.

Platt took up position by the passenger side front fender of the Cutlass. He fired a .357 Magnum revolver at agents Ronald Risner and Gilbert Orrantia, and received another wound when turning to fire at Hanlon, Dove and Grogan. The bullet, fired by Risner or Orrantia, penetrated Platt's right forearm, fractured the radius bone and exited the forearm. This wound caused Platt to drop his revolver.<sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference">[8]</sup> It is estimated that Platt was shot again shortly afterwards, this time by Risner. The bullet penetrated Platt's right upper arm, exited below the armpit and entered his torso, stopping below his shoulder blade. The wound was not serious.<sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference">[9]</sup>




Platt fired one round at Risner and Orrantia's position, wounding Orrantia with shrapnel created by the bullet's passage, and two rounds at McNeill. One round hit McNeill in the neck, causing him to collapse and leaving him paralyzed for several hours.<sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference">[10]</sup>



Platt attempted to start the car. Mireles drew his .357 Magnum revolver, moved parallel to the street and then directly toward Platt and Matix. Mireles fired six rounds at the suspects. The first round missed, hitting the back of the front seat. The second hit the driver's side window post and fragmented, with one small piece hitting Platt in the scalp. The third hit Matix in the face, and fragmented in two, with neither piece causing a serious wound. The fourth hit Matix in the face next to his right eye socket, travelled downward through the facial bones, into the neck, where it entered the spinal column and severed the spinal cord. The fifth hit Matix in the face, penetrated the jaw bone and neck and came to rest by the spinal column.<sup id="cite_ref-16" class="reference">[17]</sup> Mireles reached the driver's side door, extended his revolver through the window, and fired his sixth shot at Platt. The bullet penetrated Platt's chest and bruised the spinal cord, ending the gunfight.<sup id="cite_ref-17" class="reference">[18]</sup>


also: Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gun shot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were completely drug-free at the time of their deaths.<sup id="cite_ref-19" class="reference">[20]</sup>
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Old 01-21-2010, 17:34   #42
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Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
It's not opinion. It has been measured with a high speed pressure transducer from distant locations from the impact area of the subject.

No, again, it's been measured and will always be able to be measured.
Come on now... I think the context is very clear in this thread, and I think you are clear as well: Does BPW have a reliable effect in service calibers?

The thread context is pretty clear to me, and was clear IMO in my full reply, of which some you omited in my quote. So, I added a bit of emphasis below to what I said above to be sure you'd not miss it the second time around:
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Originally Posted by coal View Post
... The "principle" then is in fact not definatively the same comparing rifle to service pistol if the "BPW" velocity window is not reached. ...
The fundamental question is not whether BPW exists at all. The real question, of which I think we're all clear, is: Do service calibers travel fast enough for BPW to have a reliable effect? The answer to that question is certainly not definative, and it appears unlikely. Me personally, I think BPW is not a proven reliable mechanism in service calibers and it's apples-to-oranges comparing to rifles.
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Last edited by coal; 01-21-2010 at 20:47..
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Old 01-21-2010, 17:35   #43
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Old 01-21-2010, 17:38   #44
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I think any shockwave, or temporary cavity will have some effect from the carry cartridges, 9mm, 38, 45, 40 357. I've never been shot by one, though.

Even if the temporary cavitation doesn't destroy organs like from a high powered rifle, i'm sure it would have a painfull effect. If ones lungs or what not get moved out of place very quickly and settle back down, it will probably hurt like heck.
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Old 01-21-2010, 18:53   #45
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The term "ballistic pressure wave" was coined by a self-admitted amatuer/crackpot and has no place in a serious discussion of wound ballistics. Handgun bullets that generate approximately less than 1000 ft-lbs of KE only wound via the direct crush of the passage of the bullet. Barring a psychological response, this is fairly conclusive.

Velocity is a <VERY>good thing. Unfortunately, enough velocity can not be generated from any of the "service calibers" that will allow for relaible wounding via the TC created by a projectile's passage alone and certainly will not create magical, mythical "ballistic pressure waves".
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Old 01-21-2010, 19:14   #46
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About the time when most police were carrying a 38S&W or 38 Special
Henry Ford said You can have a model T in any color you want as long as its Black,,,, OH how times have changed,,




Please carry on,
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Old 01-21-2010, 21:10   #47
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The term "ballistic pressure wave" was coined by a self-admitted amatuer/crackpot and has no place in a serious discussion of wound ballistics. Handgun bullets that generate approximately less than 1000 ft-lbs of KE only wound via the direct crush of the passage of the bullet. Barring a psychological response, this is fairly conclusive.

Velocity is a <VERY>good thing. Unfortunately, enough velocity can not be generated from any of the "service calibers" that will allow for relaible wounding via the TC created by a projectile's passage alone and certainly will not create magical, mythical "ballistic pressure waves".
OK, I'm not picking on this one post, but in general the conclusion I can draw from the crowd that either says BPW does not exist, or thinks that handgun velocities aren't high enough to cause BPW, and bullets only wound from direct crush, is that we should all use FMJ bullets for SD. If a bullet's only wounding mechanism is direct crush, then why fol around with an extra .1-.15 inches of diameter, sacrificing greatly needed penetration, because we want to crush as much as possible. Seems to me that if BPW has no effect at all in handguns we should all replace our JHP ammo with FMJ because penetration is the number one most important factor to direct crush, or any wounding in general. If the bullet doesn't reach vitals it probably won't make a stopping wound. So let's not mess around with shooting through doors or glass, or arms with JHP's, cut the crap, and carry FMJ. As to over penetration, well, I think it's paranoia. Let's worry about hitting our target first, then worry about over penetration. Besides, a service caliber handgun bullet traveling through a human body will probably loose so much velocity that it isn't lethal for very long after it exits, if it exits.
I guess all this crap about HST's and Ranger T's and DPX is just that, crap.
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Old 01-21-2010, 22:07   #48
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OK, I'm not picking on this one post, but in general the conclusion I can draw from the crowd that either says BPW does not exist, or thinks that handgun velocities aren't high enough to cause BPW, and bullets only wound from direct crush, is that we should all use FMJ bullets for SD. If a bullet's only wounding mechanism is direct crush, then why fol around with an extra .1-.15 inches of diameter, sacrificing greatly needed penetration, because we want to crush as much as possible. Seems to me that if BPW has no effect at all in handguns we should all replace our JHP ammo with FMJ because penetration is the number one most important factor to direct crush, or any wounding in general. If the bullet doesn't reach vitals it probably won't make a stopping wound. So let's not mess around with shooting through doors or glass, or arms with JHP's, cut the crap, and carry FMJ. As to over penetration, well, I think it's paranoia. Let's worry about hitting our target first, then worry about over penetration. Besides, a service caliber handgun bullet traveling through a human body will probably loose so much velocity that it isn't lethal for very long after it exits, if it exits.
I guess all this crap about HST's and Ranger T's and DPX is just that, crap.
I assume some things are obvious, but obviosuly not.

The answer to your question above (i.e. why HP ammo) is that:
- Critical tissues lies within a "window" in the human body. Call it ~12", ~13", <14", <16" ... whatever, it's a limited "window": Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo. Pentration beyond that "window", or that exist the body, both FAR more common with FMJ, is meaningless.

Also:
- The difference in expanded diameter with modern HP is typically 0.3+", and even greater when you consider expanded surface area: Load Data and Caliber Talk. And, surface area is what really matters relative to expansion.

Penetration beyond that "window", or that exits the body, is not "crushing" critical tissue. For service calibers, all that matters is what's crushed/destroyed within that critical tissue "window", and how critcal that tissue is.

Modern HP offers reliable expansion and reliable penetration. A .355" object that expands to 0.65+" and passes through 12" of tissue will be more likely to effect reliable incapacitation than an identical 12" path of a .355" object. There are no guarantees, but that concept is pretty simple.
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Old 01-21-2010, 22:10   #49
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I was being sarcastic. But still, SHTF, like Katrina, I'm loading up with FMJ.
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Old 01-21-2010, 23:54   #50
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Hey, is .357 Sig more effective than 9mm?
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Old 01-22-2010, 06:34   #51
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Old 01-22-2010, 11:05   #52
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Originally Posted by dosei View Post
I never said BPW did not exist, it does.

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Typical SD handgun calibers cannot induce a sufficiently intense pressure waves in a full grown human to impart trauma.
What fact/theory are you basing this on?
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The existence of a BPW does not mean there is any BPW trauma.
Who said it does? Are you not aware of the probabilities that have been worked up thus far toward the level of BPW aiding in incapacitation in under 5 seconds???

500psi = 15%
700psi = 50%
1000psi = 75%
1300psi = 90%

These probabilities are based on an unobstructed hit to the center of the chest that penetrate 10" or more for given pressure wave magnitudes. The accuracy of the predictions are estimated to be roughly 10%.

Examples of rounds that produce varying levels of the above probabilities:

9mm 124gr standard pressure HST = 501psi
9mm 127gr +P+ Winchester Ranger = 691psi
9mm 115gr +P+ Winchester Ranger = 1023psi
10mm 135gr Double Tap Ammo = 1332psi


Quote:
Pressure waves are constantly traveling thru our bodies.
At +500psi??? I don't know what you do in daily life, but in mine, no pressure wave has ever reached my brain at a magnatude of 400psi or higher. You statement is true, but holds no water in the context you tried to use it.


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Old 01-22-2010, 11:10   #53
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Are you not aware of the probabilities that have been worked up thus far toward the level of BPW aiding in incapacitation in under 5 seconds???


Oh...that's good...I almost wet my pants from laughing so hard...

You should do stand-up comedy at gun shows...
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Old 01-22-2010, 11:16   #54
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:Do service calibers travel fast enough for BPW to have a reliable effect? The answer to that question is certainly not definative, and it appears unlikely.
A good amount of scientific study including and beyond Dr. Courtney's work show the "unlikely" would definately be a poor choice of wording in general on your part.
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Old 01-22-2010, 11:19   #55
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Oh...that's good...I almost wet my pants from laughing so hard...

You should do stand-up comedy at gun shows...
Somehow I'm not surprised you have no answer back to my post. I guess you'ld have to have knowledge on the subject to speak intelligently about it. That's ok, you're learning. Anything else you need me to clear up for you?

I'm here to help,
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Old 01-22-2010, 11:49   #56
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Somehow I'm not surprised you have no answer back to my post. I guess you'ld have to have knowledge on the subject to speak intelligently about it. That's ok, you're learning. Anything else you need me to clear up for you?

I'm here to help,
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Boxers have been tested, pro's can deliver punches in the 900 psi range. So for 12 rounds, two men deliver/receive hits to the body that...per your claims...should have them dropping in 5 seconds or less.
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Old 01-22-2010, 14:45   #57
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Boxers have been tested, pro's can deliver punches in the 900 psi range. So for 12 rounds, two men deliver/receive hits to the body that...per your claims...should have them dropping in 5 seconds or less.
I guess you missed the following in post #52 where I said; These probabilities are based on an unobstructed hit to the center of the chest that penetrate 10" or more for given pressure wave magnitudes. The accuracy of the predictions are estimated to be roughly 10%.

Non penetrating blunt force hits to the outside of the human body wouldn't be expected to have them dropping in 5 seconds or less, and if it's happened, it's probably an extremely small percentage of the time (like less than 1%).

Anything else?


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Old 01-22-2010, 14:54   #58
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Originally Posted by DocKWL View Post
The term "ballistic pressure wave" was coined by a self-admitted amatuer/crackpot and has no place in a serious discussion of wound ballistics.


Quote:
Handgun bullets that generate approximately less than 1000 ft-lbs of KE only wound via the direct crush of the passage of the bullet. Barring a psychological response, this is fairly conclusive.
Where are you getting the 1000 ft-lbs number from?

Quote:
Velocity is a <VERY>good thing. Unfortunately, enough velocity can not be generated from any of the "service calibers" that will allow for relaible wounding via the TC created by a projectile's passage alone and certainly will not create magical, mythical "ballistic pressure waves".
TCs are only indirectly related to peak ballistic pressure wave. You can't have one without the other, but that's about the closest they relate.

Besides that velocity is only part of the tail that can lead to a higher peak ballistic pressure wave. There are rounds at lower velocities than others that produce a higher PBPW than some of the faster ones.
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Old 01-22-2010, 15:30   #59
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I guess you missed the following in post #52 where I said; These probabilities are based on an unobstructed hit to the center of the chest that penetrate 10" or more for given pressure wave magnitudes. The accuracy of the predictions are estimated to be roughly 10%.

Non penetrating blunt force hits to the outside of the human body wouldn't be expected to have them dropping in 5 seconds or less, and if it's happened, it's probably an extremely small percentage of the time (like less than 1%).

Anything else?


Craig
No, I did not miss the part where you conceded to the fact that penetration is key (and still you try to dodge that fact that it is the damage caused by said penetration that drops a person, not the "pressure wave trauma"). But from the stand point of "Pressure Wave Trauma", that number is completely irrelevant. I'm 6' tall & weigh 200 lbs...and I'm 10", front to back (grin...that's right, I'm a full 10" thick...☺). So the emanation point of the "pressure wave" per your data would be the front or back of a person...much like the boxing example. The surface of the body is also the part most susceptible to such trauma, since it is covered with sensitive nerve endings that would carry the "traumatic pulse" of the impact to the brain and shut it down (like stun grenades...although, IMHO, it is the "pressure wave" damaging the ear drum and disrupting the fluid in the inner ear that is the primary incapacitator). The body is not designed to notice or react to internal pressure waves. Not to mention the fact that 5 seconds is an unacceptably slow incapacitation time for SD purposes. I've dumped a full magazine into their chest cavity by then and their heart now resembles road kill...that "incapacitating pressure wave" is about as useful as teets on a boar.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:51   #60
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No, I did not miss the part where you conceded to the fact that penetration is key (and still you try to dodge that fact that it is the damage caused by said penetration that drops a person, not the "pressure wave trauma").
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. I don't know if we're all the way there yet in terms of understanding where the other is coming from but we're definately getting close.

I'm not positive, but I think you're misunderstanding what I meant by penetration depth being an important factor directly in terms of the peak ballistic pressure wave magnatude.

If I'm understanding you correctly (correct me if I'm wrong) you're refering to penetration depth (permanent crush cavity) and PBPW (psi of PBPW) as two separate entities toward incapacitation (reguardless if you believe a BPW can incapacitate at all), and they are.

The point I was trying to make is that the PBPW must occure as close to the center of the thoratic cavity as possible to expect the probabilities I listed in an above post. If a bullet only penetrates, lets say 7", the PBPW may happen too early in the wound track to expect the effect of PBPW to work in incapacitating a BG in less than 5 seconds (whether you believe it's possible or not is beside the point here).

Then, on top of that, yes, whatever the penetration depth was, is a permanent crush cavity that does incapacitate at some point, but not forcingly till after a minimum of ~ 15 seconds, and more likely ~ 30 seconds to a minute or more when oxygen loss through blood loss occures to enough of an extent to render the BG harmless.

With that said, is it now obvious to you I wasn't dodging anything, but that we didn't fully understand where the other was coming from in what we were thinking we needed to get across? I certainly am well aware the permanent crush cavity, left untreated through simple blood loss or vital organ impairment, will usually at some point incapacitate a BG.

Again, the idea behind BPW is to incapacitate in under 5 seconds. Permanent crush cavities by themselves, except when disrupting the CNS, will never incapacitate in less than 5 seconds no matter how many holes you shoot into the BG.

NOW, the BG may choose by his own free will to stop fighting, BUT until oxygen loss drops enough through blood loss, he doesn't have to, no matter if you've completely shredded his heart or lungs or whatever, as it takes 15 seconds or more (the vast majority of the time, more) for the brain to use up the oxygen it already had from the time you put the first hole in him.

I personally choose to choose an SD round that has a fair capability of incapacitating the BG in less than 5 seconds with the first shot, assuming good shot placement (thoratic cavity), with the chances going up as I put more rounds into the BG IF POSSIBLE.

Do you realize how many BGs have been shot in the chest with neither the lungs or heart being hit, sometimes even after multiple shots? You can practice for excellent shot placement all day long, but at the end of the day there is no guarantee a COM hit will result in either the heart or lungs being taken out.
Quote:
But from the stand point of "Pressure Wave Trauma", that number is completely irrelevant. I'm 6' tall & weigh 200 lbs...and I'm 10", front to back (grin...that's right, I'm a full 10" thick...☺). So the emanation point of the "pressure wave" per your data would be the front or back of a person...much like the boxing example.
No. With JHP handgun bullets, the PEAK ballistic pressure wave will never happen at the front or back, it will happen somewhere in the middle when retarding forces of the body on the bullet are greatest, which is after the JHP bullet expands (after entry) but before it comes to a stop if it does come to a stop, where most energy will already have been lost in relation to psi of the ballistic pressure wave.
Quote:
The surface of the body is also the part most susceptible to such trauma, since it is covered with sensitive nerve endings that would carry the "traumatic pulse" of the impact to the brain and shut it down (like stun grenades...although, IMHO, it is the "pressure wave" damaging the ear drum and disrupting the fluid in the inner ear that is the primary incapacitator).
No. We're not refering to a "traumatic pulse". We are refering to a pressure wave based on a ballistic source occuring within a human body. I question where you got the term "traumatic pulse" from? Did you make it up, or was it used in some literature you read or were told about? The stun grenades I have no comment on.
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The body is not designed to notice or react to internal pressure waves.
Really??? Well I guess concussions aren't possible then.
Quote:
Not to mention the fact that 5 seconds is an unacceptably slow incapacitation time for SD purposes.
Really??? I hope for your sake you either take out the BGs CNS, or, he chooses to quit fighting, because if not, you're in for a big surprise!!! Is less than 5 seconds not a whole lot better than 15 seconds up to minutes?
Quote:
I've dumped a full magazine into their chest cavity by then and their heart now resembles road kill...
I'll take that as sarcasm for now.
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that "incapacitating pressure wave" is about as useful as teets on a boar.
If I wasn't aware of what you aren't in relation to Dr. Courtney's theory of BPW, I would think the same thing!!!


Good Shooting,
Craig
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Free Men Don't Need To Ask Permission To Bear Arms

The Glock 29 is the most versatile handgun yet produced.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42