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Old 01-23-2010, 12:51   #61
TwinFourFives
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OK, I'm not picking on this one post, but in general the conclusion I can draw from the crowd that either says BPW does not exist, or thinks that handgun velocities aren't high enough to cause BPW, and bullets only wound from direct crush, is that we should all use FMJ bullets for SD. If a bullet's only wounding mechanism is direct crush, then why fol around with an extra .1-.15 inches of diameter, sacrificing greatly needed penetration, because we want to crush as much as possible. Seems to me that if BPW has no effect at all in handguns we should all replace our JHP ammo with FMJ because penetration is the number one most important factor to direct crush, or any wounding in general. If the bullet doesn't reach vitals it probably won't make a stopping wound. So let's not mess around with shooting through doors or glass, or arms with JHP's, cut the crap, and carry FMJ. As to over penetration, well, I think it's paranoia. Let's worry about hitting our target first, then worry about over penetration. Besides, a service caliber handgun bullet traveling through a human body will probably loose so much velocity that it isn't lethal for very long after it exits, if it exits.
I guess all this crap about HST's and Ranger T's and DPX is just that, crap.


The way i see it, fmj would be the superior choice for stopping the fight instantly. They have a better chance of hitting the central nervous system because they penetrate farther. However, with the hollow points, the organs are more likely to be damaged or destroyed because of the depression in the bullet nose. If you have a fmj bullet it might push stuff out of the way as it travels, but the little indention on HPs can cut a good path, especially if they expand some. That would give the round more resistance on its way to a CNS hit though, if it expanded.

I do think over penetration is hyped. If there's someone you dont want to shoot standing right behind the target, using a jhp isn't a smart way to justify the shot. It is irresponsible to assume the jhp wont go through the person and hit someone standing right behind them.
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Old 01-23-2010, 17:37   #62
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Originally Posted by TwinFourFives View Post
The way i see it, fmj would be the superior choice for stopping the fight instantly. They have a better chance of hitting the central nervous system because they penetrate farther. However, with the hollow points, the organs are more likely to be damaged or destroyed because of the depression in the bullet nose. If you have a fmj bullet it might push stuff out of the way as it travels, but the little indention on HPs can cut a good path, especially if they expand some. That would give the round more resistance on its way to a CNS hit though, if it expanded.

I do think over penetration is hyped. If there's someone you dont want to shoot standing right behind the target, using a jhp isn't a smart way to justify the shot. It is irresponsible to assume the jhp wont go through the person and hit someone standing right behind them.


Other inherent problems with FMJ is that they commonly don't penetrate in a straight line through an actual human body. They like to veer off course and follow the path of least resistance, and more easily ricochet off bone. So even if you shot is dead center on a straight on hit at the BG perfectly lined up for the spine, doesn't mean you'll hit it anyway. Now you add a moving target to the equation, and hoping to hit that 1.5" or so wide spine starts looking really bleak unless you simply get lucky.

Yeah, think I'll stick with JHP too!
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Old 01-23-2010, 18:51   #63
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Speed matters! everybody agrees a .357 magnum 125 gr JHP GD @ 1335 fps is an excellent defensive load!
Then when they are going to choose between two 9mm loads: a 147 gr jhp GD @ 982 fps and a 127 gr +p+ Win Ranger @ 1230 fps, they say they prefer the 147 gr load... The 127 gr load is only 100 fps shy of the magnum load but the 147 gr load is 350 fps away from the magnun load... and all of them are exactly the same caliber (diameter)...
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Old 01-24-2010, 16:19   #64
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Speed matters! everybody agrees a .357 magnum 125 gr JHP GD @ 1335 fps is an excellent defensive load!
Then when they are going to choose between two 9mm loads: a 147 gr jhp GD @ 982 fps and a 127 gr +p+ Win Ranger @ 1230 fps, they say they prefer the 147 gr load... The 127 gr load is only 100 fps shy of the magnum load but the 147 gr load is 350 fps away from the magnun load... and all of them are exactly the same caliber (diameter)...
Shhh, that makes sense......
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Old 01-24-2010, 16:29   #65
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Shhh, that makes sense......
What makes sense? If the .357 Magnum is that good, why isn't everyone using it? If the 357 SIG was designed to mimic the Magnum's performance, why is the .40 S&W the runaway favorite?
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Old 01-24-2010, 17:44   #66
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40 smith and wesson is a versatile caliber, for the platform it can be used in. Common loads can be light and fast in the 9mm realm, or slower and heavier such in the 45 acp realm, but you can still hold 15 rounds of 180 grain .4 slugs in the common platforms. There are some dandy solid lead 200+ grain loads for .40 that will hit fast and be effective against four legged predators and hogs. I do not think all the guns are made to handle these loads reliably.
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Old 01-24-2010, 17:52   #67
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What makes sense? If the .357 Magnum is that good, why isn't everyone using it? If the 357 SIG was designed to mimic the Magnum's performance, why is the .40 S&W the runaway favorite?
Just a guess here, but maybe the FBI got carried away with the downloaded 10mm and jumped at the .40S&W before the .357sig was created.

I think the .357sig is on a positive uptrend with both LEO and the civilian population since the caliber's favorable comparison to the legendary 125-grain .357 Magnum round is proving out.

Now the LEO/civilian population have the .357sig and the .40S&W plus the 10mm the FBI originally wanted. Choice is good.
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Old 01-24-2010, 17:54   #68
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Originally Posted by TwinFourFives View Post
40 smith and wesson is a versatile caliber, for the platform it can be used in. Common loads can be light and fast in the 9mm realm, or slower and heavier such in the 45 acp realm, but you can still hold 15 rounds of 180 grain .4 slugs in the common platforms. There are some dandy solid lead 200+ grain loads for .40 that will hit fast and be effective against four legged predators and hogs. I do not think all the guns are made to handle these loads reliably.
Right, and a lot of .40S&W pistols can easily convert to .357sig, which provides comparable ballistics to the legendary .357 Magnum round but with double capacity.

Like I say, choice is good.
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Old 01-24-2010, 18:01   #69
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Just a guess here, but maybe the FBI got carried away with the downloaded 10mm and jumped at the .40S&W before the .357sig was created.

I think the .357sig is on a positive uptrend with both LEO and the civilian population since the caliber's favorable comparison to the legendary 125-grain .357 Magnum round is proving out.

Now the LEO/civilian population have the .357sig and the .40S&W plus the 10mm the FBI originally wanted. Choice is good.
All you need now are the facts to support your statement.

The FBI didn't "jump" into anything. They got the performance they were seeking with the .40 S&W. Why would they choose the high velocity SIG round when velocity is what they were trending away from?
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Old 01-24-2010, 18:07   #70
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All you need now are the facts to support your statement.


This has gotta be one of the greatest one liners that I've ever read. What makes it even funnier is that it is true.
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Old 01-24-2010, 18:12   #71
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All you need now are the facts to support your statement.

The FBI didn't "jump" into anything. They got the performance they were seeking with the .40 S&W. Why would they choose the high velocity SIG round when velocity is what they were trending away from?
Because the Sig round didn't exist yet! Besides, the above post is correct. People rave about 125 grain .357 Magnum, and then choose 147 grain 9mm, which makes zero sense. and the FBI wasn't trending away from velocity. They wanted heavy and fast. The reason we have the 40 S&W is due to the fact that not many agents could control full power 10mm loads in rapid fire. From full power 10mm we got 10mm lite, then S&W figured out they could take the 10mm lite load, shorten the case, make it fit in 9mm sized weapons and wham, we now have the 40 S&W. So the FBI really didn't get the performance they wanted. They wanted full power 10mm. They didn't get it due to human ability factors. Full power 10mm loads do more damage in target than the same exact bullet weight and design in 40 S&W.
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Old 01-24-2010, 18:13   #72
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All you need now are the facts to support your statement.

The FBI didn't "jump" into anything. They got the performance they were seeking with the .40 S&W. Why would they choose the high velocity SIG round when velocity is what they were trending away from?
If I am not mistaken, a number of LEA's have gone to .357 Sig. I believe TX DPS, NJSP, NMSP, Dallas Police just to name a few. I'm sure there are others.
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Old 01-24-2010, 19:23   #73
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Because the Sig round didn't exist yet! Besides, the above post is correct. People rave about 125 grain .357 Magnum, and then choose 147 grain 9mm, which makes zero sense. and the FBI wasn't trending away from velocity. They wanted heavy and fast. The reason we have the 40 S&W is due to the fact that not many agents could control full power 10mm loads in rapid fire. From full power 10mm we got 10mm lite, then S&W figured out they could take the 10mm lite load, shorten the case, make it fit in 9mm sized weapons and wham, we now have the 40 S&W. So the FBI really didn't get the performance they wanted. They wanted full power 10mm. They didn't get it due to human ability factors. Full power 10mm loads to more damage in target than the same exact bullet weight and design in 40 S&W.
Your facts are skewed and charged by emotion. Read the link provided objectively.

READ THIS (PDF file)

It will also serve you well to read and understand THIS.
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Old 01-24-2010, 19:26   #74
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If I am not mistaken, a number of LEA's have gone to .357 Sig. I believe TX DPS, NJSP, NMSP, Dallas Police just to name a few. I'm sure there are others.
Yesterday's news. Please cite new police organizations (say within the last two years), procurements, and sales figures.

The LEA's you cite adopted the caliber years ago.
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Old 01-24-2010, 19:39   #75
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That link you posted to Firearms Tactical is the test results, not the history of the 10mm. The link says nothing about the evolution of the 10mm, which is what I am talking about. Do some research and look it up. Read this link,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto which has all the cites in it. The 10mm lite load, which was "best" was only issued because the FBI Firearms Training Unit deemed it uncontrollable for average agents. The 10mm Lite, was NOT what the FBI wanted.

And that second link is from 1989. Dude, its the year 2010 a lot of things have changed since then.
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Old 01-24-2010, 21:31   #76
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All you need now are the facts to support your statement.

The FBI didn't "jump" into anything. They got the performance they were seeking with the .40 S&W. Why would they choose the high velocity SIG round when velocity is what they were trending away from?
Well, Doc,

You're great at telling people to read dead-end links. However, the fact is (thanks for providing at least one easily established fact in your non-sequitur link) that the .40S&W was first issued in July 1990.

Now will you please tell everyone when the .357sig was first developed or do you want me to tell them? The facts are exactly as I presented them, and now we'll probably see another thread close because you've run up against a question you won't answer.
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Old 01-24-2010, 21:38   #77
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Your facts are skewed and charged by emotion. Read the link provided objectively.

READ THIS (PDF file)

It will also serve you well to read and understand THIS.
Doc,

It's become all too obvious that when you can't rely on facts you resort to asking people to read non-sequitur links that do nothing to support your unsubstantiated claims.

When are you ever going to actually back up your statements without reaching for deflection tactics?
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Old 01-24-2010, 22:17   #78
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Sometimes people like to down play the 9mm round. I subscribed to this thinking for a long time. While a .45 is indeed a great personal defense round, I think the 9mm is a great round. The last thing that convinced me of this is the fact that Heaven forbid, we get into a self defense situation that requires the use of a handgun, you are going to put 2 rounds in your target regardless of caliber. Now, that just took you down to 6 or 7 rounds left in the .45 and the G19 still has 14.
I think alot of it boils down to training. Find a gun that fits your hand and shoot the snot out of it 45,9mm,40

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Old 01-24-2010, 23:01   #79
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Doc,

It's become all too obvious that when you can't rely on facts you resort to asking people to read non-sequitur links that do nothing to support your unsubstantiated claims.

When are you ever going to actually back up your statements without reaching for deflection tactics?
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Old 01-24-2010, 23:09   #80
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10mm evolution:
Full power 10mm > 10mm Lite > 40 S&W > 357 SIG, and so goes the list of rounds that are variations of the original 10mm cartridge in some war. And if I am not mistaken, the US Secret Service and US Air Marshals use .357 SIG. Hmm those agencies normally need to put people down/stop them in a hurry.

I think that these agencies are on to something. Light, fast bullets that penetrate and expand. That is why I carry fast 165 grain loads in my G23. Not to mention in my own rudimentary testing it kicked 180 grain's butt. However, I would like to test some of the newer Ranger 180's that are now loaded to 1025fps. Now if someone would make a 135 or 140 grain bonded round that isn't as long as an XPB so it can move at 1350fps... That would be interesting to try out.
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