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Old 01-24-2010, 20:31   #76
unit1069
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Originally Posted by DocKWL View Post
All you need now are the facts to support your statement.

The FBI didn't "jump" into anything. They got the performance they were seeking with the .40 S&W. Why would they choose the high velocity SIG round when velocity is what they were trending away from?
Well, Doc,

You're great at telling people to read dead-end links. However, the fact is (thanks for providing at least one easily established fact in your non-sequitur link) that the .40S&W was first issued in July 1990.

Now will you please tell everyone when the .357sig was first developed or do you want me to tell them? The facts are exactly as I presented them, and now we'll probably see another thread close because you've run up against a question you won't answer.
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Old 01-24-2010, 20:38   #77
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Originally Posted by DocKWL View Post
Your facts are skewed and charged by emotion. Read the link provided objectively.

READ THIS (PDF file)

It will also serve you well to read and understand THIS.
Doc,

It's become all too obvious that when you can't rely on facts you resort to asking people to read non-sequitur links that do nothing to support your unsubstantiated claims.

When are you ever going to actually back up your statements without reaching for deflection tactics?
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Old 01-24-2010, 21:17   #78
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Sometimes people like to down play the 9mm round. I subscribed to this thinking for a long time. While a .45 is indeed a great personal defense round, I think the 9mm is a great round. The last thing that convinced me of this is the fact that Heaven forbid, we get into a self defense situation that requires the use of a handgun, you are going to put 2 rounds in your target regardless of caliber. Now, that just took you down to 6 or 7 rounds left in the .45 and the G19 still has 14.
I think alot of it boils down to training. Find a gun that fits your hand and shoot the snot out of it 45,9mm,40

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Old 01-24-2010, 22:01   #79
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Doc,

It's become all too obvious that when you can't rely on facts you resort to asking people to read non-sequitur links that do nothing to support your unsubstantiated claims.

When are you ever going to actually back up your statements without reaching for deflection tactics?
+1000
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Old 01-24-2010, 22:09   #80
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10mm evolution:
Full power 10mm > 10mm Lite > 40 S&W > 357 SIG, and so goes the list of rounds that are variations of the original 10mm cartridge in some war. And if I am not mistaken, the US Secret Service and US Air Marshals use .357 SIG. Hmm those agencies normally need to put people down/stop them in a hurry.

I think that these agencies are on to something. Light, fast bullets that penetrate and expand. That is why I carry fast 165 grain loads in my G23. Not to mention in my own rudimentary testing it kicked 180 grain's butt. However, I would like to test some of the newer Ranger 180's that are now loaded to 1025fps. Now if someone would make a 135 or 140 grain bonded round that isn't as long as an XPB so it can move at 1350fps... That would be interesting to try out.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:13   #81
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Well, Doc,

You're great at telling people to read dead-end links. However, the fact is (thanks for providing at least one easily established fact in your non-sequitur link) that the .40S&W was first issued in July 1990.

Now will you please tell everyone when the .357sig was first developed or do you want me to tell them? The facts are exactly as I presented them, and now we'll probably see another thread close because you've run up against a question you won't answer.
I apologize if you mistakenly accepted my initial response as malicious, I assure you that was not my intent. You now say:

Quote:
The facts are exactly as I presented them
But in the post I responded to, you said:

Quote:
Just a guess here, but maybe the FBI got carried away with the downloaded 10mm and jumped at the .40S&W before the .357sig was created.

I think the .357sig is on a positive uptrend with both LEO and the civilian population since the caliber's favorable comparison to the legendary 125-grain .357 Magnum round is proving out.
Starting off two paragraphs with, "Just a guess here" and "I think..." are hardly supporting factual information. Where are your sales figures supporting your argument that, "the .357sig is on a positive uptrend with both LEO and the civilian population..."?

It does not matter when the SIG was developed (1994). Your underlying argument was that if the SIG was available, the FBI may have selected that caliber over the .40 S&W which is simply not true.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:19   #82
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
Doc,

It's become all too obvious that when you can't rely on facts you resort to asking people to read non-sequitur links that do nothing to support your unsubstantiated claims.

When are you ever going to actually back up your statements without reaching for deflection tactics?
The links are PDF files written by the man directly involved explaining who, what, where, when, why and how. Unlike other people, I did not say "I think" and "just a guess here..."
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:25   #83
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+1000
You did not read the links objectively. I doubt you read them at all.
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:18   #84
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Right, and a lot of .40S&W pistols can easily convert to .357sig, which provides comparable ballistics to the legendary .357 Magnum round but with double capacity.

Like I say, choice is good.
:D especially with glocks
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:38   #85
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You did not read the links objectively. I doubt you read them at all.
I read enough.
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Old 01-25-2010, 21:09   #86
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Starting off two paragraphs with, "Just a guess here" and "I think..." are hardly supporting factual information. Where are your sales figures supporting your argument that, "the .357sig is on a positive uptrend with both LEO and the civilian population..."?
Well of course I was guessing! My response was to your post on page 3, "If the .357 Magnum was so good ... " Is it your guess that .357 Magnum was the king of manstopping handgun rounds or do you know it is? My response can only be conjecture on anyone's part because the FBI didn't have .357sig to evaluate in the late 1980s. So that part of my response is factual and will always be factual. As for issue LEO handgun calibers I recently read that .357sig now has taken overall third slot.

Quote:
It does not matter when the SIG was developed (1994). Your underlying argument was that if the SIG was available, the FBI may have selected that caliber over the .40 S&W which is simply not true.
"It does not matter ... ?" Now who's the one guessing? Do you have FBI evaluations of the two calibers that show the FBI would have initially picked .40S&W over .357sig if the two had been simultaneously available for testing? Why do the US Secret Service and federal Air Marshals choose .357sig when .40S&W has been available longer than .357sig?
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Old 01-25-2010, 21:55   #87
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Here's at least one article where a competent researcher tested .357sig and .40S&W side-by-side. The FBI rendered assistance although not their imprimatur. No doubt they believe in the author's professionalism or else they'd not have given their assistance, right, Doc?


Quote:
The author said that out of the 8 testing categories of the 40 round evaluation, tests 6 and 8 are the acid tests. These two tests involve shooting at lightly clothed gelatin through automobile glass.

"With respect to performance in gelatin, all rounds from both test loads shed their jackets after penetrating the glass in tests 6 and 8. However, the .357SIG showed better penetration, going an average of 13 inches into the gelatin in test 6 as opposed to 10 inches for the .40. The Federal .357SIG also out-penetrated the Hornady .40 by one to four inches in tests 2, 4, 5 and 7.
"The maximum pressure of the .40 load was 37,400 psi, so one can expect that the .40 will be just about as hard on a gun of similar construction as the .357SIG."
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIIC2q8.html
It's anyone's guess which caliber the FBI would have selected had both calibers been available for testing. If anyone has something definitive that proves otherwise I look forward to reading it.
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Old 01-25-2010, 22:09   #88
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Your facts are skewed and charged by emotion. Read the link provided objectively.

READ THIS (PDF file)

It will also serve you well to read and understand THIS.
I understand you posting the first link, as he was misinformed on why the FBI went with and later dumped the 10mm.

It's the second link I don't get? Besides that it's all good info, what specifically is it suppose to help him understand in the context of what's been discussed? Or did you simply post it out of the kindness of your heart towards further learning in general outside the scope of this thread?
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Old 01-30-2010, 20:01   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocKWL Caliber Corner

The term "ballistic pressure wave" was coined by a self-admitted amatuer . . .




What's the matter? Does the truth hurt?
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Old 01-31-2010, 12:25   #90
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Remember you only have a handgun to give you time to get to your rifle.
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Old 01-31-2010, 13:03   #91
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What's the matter? Does the truth hurt?
Well first it would have to be true.
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Old 01-31-2010, 13:05   #92
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Remember you only have a handgun to give you time to get to your rifle.
Or in my case, the Benelli semi-auto 12ga.
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Old 01-31-2010, 13:43   #93
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I always wondered what the power factor equation was...
Don't forget to divide by 1000.
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Old 01-31-2010, 13:46   #94
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[B][U] And it is lead-free.
Oh, My, God! Not another "green" obama supporter? When will they learn, when the ecomy completely collapses?
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Old 01-31-2010, 14:29   #95
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The reason we have the 40 S&W is due to the fact that not many agents could control full power 10mm loads in rapid fire. From full power 10mm we got 10mm lite, then S&W figured out they could take the 10mm lite load, shorten the case, make it fit in 9mm sized weapons and wham, we now have the 40 S&W. So the FBI really didn't get the performance they wanted. They wanted full power 10mm. They didn't get it due to human ability factors. Full power 10mm loads do more damage in target than the same exact bullet weight and design in 40 S&W.
That's incorrect.The FBI started out with the 10mm light. They never even considered the full-power 10mm. The reason they gave up on the 10mm was because of the size of the handguns necessary to reliably feed the 10mm cartridge, not the power of the round.
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Old 01-31-2010, 14:31   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by DocKWL View Post


The term "ballistic pressure wave" was coined by a self-admitted amatuer . . .




What's the matter? Does the truth hurt?

Well first it would have to be true.



“In the field of wound ballistics, I am an enthusiastic amateur . . .”<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Michael Courtney AKA “Pasteur”<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
www.m4carbine.net<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
04-20-2009<o:p></o:p>
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Old 01-31-2010, 15:20   #97
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Originally Posted by Molon View Post
“In the field of wound ballistics, I am an enthusiastic amateur . . .”<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Michael Courtney AKA “Pasteur”<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
www.m4carbine.net<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
04-20-2009<o:p></o:p>
And that proves what?

Why the link and date that don't show the context?
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