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Old 01-19-2010, 03:06   #1
Alaskapopo
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Range Report Colt 6920, DD M4, STG 556, TR24, Les Baer TRP

RANGE REPORT 1-18-10
FIREARMS USED MSAR STG 556, Colt Law Enforcement Carbine (6920), Daniel Defense M4. Les Baer Thunder Range Special.
Optic tested, Trijiconís TR24.
Activities. Sight in followed by department rifle qualification followed by simple CQB drill.
Black Rifle Forum

Today Alaskacop and I went to the range. I had a new TR24 to sight in and test out. I wanted him to do my CQB drill with one of his pistols and rifles to see which was faster for him at 7 yards. We also shot a rifle qualification.

During sight in I was very happy with the accuracy I got with my Colt. I was able to get better groups than I was with my previous Aimpoint M4 and 3x magnifier. This is due in part to my stigmatism.

Once it was sighted in I fired 3 groups at 100 yards. I used some reloads I had made with Sierra 77 grain bullets and TAC powder and Remington Match Primers. The first group I fired was .75, the next one I fired was 1.60. I had Alaskacop fire a group as well and he managed 1.33. That is an average of 1.23 inches. Previously my average with this rifle was 1.96 with the Aimpoint. The TR24 was very bright and clear. I have tested the scope in a variety of lighting conditions from daylight to complete darkness and the reticle is always bright. The only way I was able to make it go black was to be in a dark room and look outside into a bright area. I am very happy with this scope.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:07   #2
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Following sighting in the guns, Alaskacop and I shot a department rifle qualification. I managed 147 and he got 139. That is out of 150. 120 is needed to pass.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:08   #3
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He was shooting his MSAR STG556.
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Of course I was shooting my Colt
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Then I wanted Alaskacop to participate in my ongoing pistol vs. rifle at close range drill. I had him shoot his STG556 at 3 targets at 7 yards. The targets were spaced 3 yards apart. He started with his gun in low ready. I also had him do the drill with his Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special in 45 acp. I shot the drill with my Colt and with my Daniel Defense using my back up optic sight the Primary Arms micro dot gen 2.

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Here are the results from that drill.
1-19-10 Alaskacop and me with new scope on Colt and Daniel Defense

Me With Colt and TR 24

1. 2.50
2. 2.21
3. 2.43
4. 2.21
5. 2.41
6. 2.57
7. 2.65
8. 2.53
9. 2.57
10. 2.61
Average 2.46
Hits 59 A 1 C

Me with Daniel Defense

1. 2.82
2. 2.86
3. 2.82
4. 2.91
5. 2.76
Average 2.83
Hits 29 A 1 C

Alaskacop556

MSAR (STG556 Aug clone)

Time
1. 3.42
2. 3.00
3. 2.68
4. 2.83
5. 3.06
6. 3.11
7. 2.80
8. 3.18
9. 3.08
10. 3.15
Average 3.03

Hits 59 A 1 C

Alaskacop556 Pistol (Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special in 45 acp)

Time
1. 4.74
2. 4.54
3. 4.33
4. 3.81
5. 3.79
Average 4.24

Hits 16A 14C


Here are the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1gZctTTZIE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEpQ2BqUZVk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZYJgcFKvec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwtbL0tTirg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKi6ojpqyI0
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Last edited by Alaskapopo; 01-19-2010 at 05:22..
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Old 01-19-2010, 13:04   #4
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*Very* nice report, thanks! Do you find a magnified optic at 1x to be slower at CQB ranges than a typical RDS?
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Old 01-19-2010, 13:16   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomac View Post
*Very* nice report, thanks! Do you find a magnified optic at 1x to be slower at CQB ranges than a typical RDS?
Tomac
No I have not. In fact I have found it to be about equal. When comparing my TR24, Swarovski Z6i and my various RDS sights during this 7 yard drill.
Pat
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Old 01-19-2010, 13:20   #6
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These are the stats I have compiled so far.

5.56 AR's

Colt 6920 Aimpoint (Flash hider no comp)

TIME
1. 2.87
2. 3.08
3. 2.79
4. 2.75
5. 2.87
Average 2.87

HITS

T1 8A 2C
T2 9A 1C
T3 8A 2C

Total hits 25A 5C

GUN Noveske N4 carbine Aimpoint T1 used.

TIME

1. 2.69
2. 3.07
3. 2.58
4. 2.58
5. 2.29 (one shot not fired so I am not averaging it in for the time)

Average time for first 4 strings 2.73 seconds.

HITS

T1 8 Alpha 2 Charlie
T2 9 Alpha 1 Charlie
T3 4 Alpha 5 Charlie (one shot was not fired)

TOTAL HITS: 21 A 8C (one round not fired)

N4 just ACOG (TA33 fixed 3 power)

TIME

1. 2.64
2. 2.67
3. 2.80
4. 2.59
5. 2.63

Average time 2.67

HITS

T1 8A 2C
T2 7A 3C
T3 8A 2C

Total hits : 23 A 7C



Gun Larue Stealth Rifle Swarovski Z6i set at 1x

TIME

1. 2.52
2. 2.59
3. 2.50
4. 2.56
5. 2.69

Average Time 2.57

HITS

T1 9A 1C
T2 10A
T3 8A 2C

TOTAL Hits: 27 A 3 C

Gun Saber Defense AR15 A2 (IRONS)

1. 2,57
2. 2.44
3. 2.49
4. 2.62
5. 2.66

Average time 2,56

HITS

T1 9A 1C
T2 9A 1D
T3 7A 3C

TOTAL hits: 25 A 4 C 1D

.308's

Gun AR10 carbine Aimpoint M4 2moa dot no muzzle brake just a huge flash hider.

1. 3.17
2. 2.88
3. 2.84
4. 2.72
5. 2.83
Average time 2.89

HITS

T1 4 A 2C 3D 1M
T2 9A 1C
T3 8A 2C

Total hits: 21 A 5 C 3D 1 M (miss)

(Did so bad the first day I tried the AR10 again. I had to slow down to get my hits)

AR10 12-1-09

Time

1. 3.95
2. 4.04
3. 3.42
4. 3.22
5. 3.33
6. 3.03

Average: 3.50

Hits
T1 10 A 2 C
T2 11 A 1 C
T3 8 A 4C

Total 29A 7 C


AK47's

Gun Saiga AK47 Reddot (Aimpoint ML2)

1. 2.91
2. 3.28
3. 2.71
4. 2.71
5. 2.67

Average time 2.86

HITS

T1 9A 1C
T2 10A
T3 9A 1C

Total hits: 28 A 2C


MAK 90 Krebs (Apature rear sight)

TIME:

1. 2.88
2. 2.87
3. 2.89
4. 2.08
5. 3.05
Average time 2.75

HITS

T1 9A 1C
T2 10A
T3 7A 3C

TOTAL hits 26A 4C



PISTOLS

GUN STI Edge in 40sw. My limited gun for USPSA. Caliber 40sw.


TIME
1. 2.88
2. 3.01
3. 3.10
4. 3.10
5. 2.70

Average time for all 5 strings is 2.95

HITS

T1 6 A 3C 1B
T2 7 A 2C 1D
T3 9A 1C

TOTAL 22 Aís 7 B&Cís 1 D hit

Glock 17

1. 3.38
2. 3.13
3. 3.37
4. 3.46
5. 3.15
Average 3.30

HITS

T1 9A 1C
T2 5A 3C 2D
T3 7A 1C 1D 1 Miss

Total 21A 5C 3D 1Miss


CONCLUSION.

I have come to some conclusions. For me at least the rifle is always faster and more accurate than a pistol except in the case of the AR10. I had to slow down to control the recoil with it. But at the .223 and 7.62x39 level of recoil the rifles were better. I affirmed that a muzzle brake does work. My Colt times with the Vortex were worse than all my other 5.56 guns and they all wear muzzle brakes. Even my AK times were better and they have muzzle brakes. I learned that Irons at 7 yards are faster or at least as fast as any of my optics. A red dot sight helps in low light but its not faster in normal conditions. I still recommend optics but I don't believe the hype that they always make you faster. It depends on the range I believe. I had similar results in an experiment I did a few years back testing irons and various optics on one rifle. The irons were a tad faster at 15 yards. They were slower for me at 25, 50 and 100. But for close quarters work I believe Irons give up nothing in the way of speed in normal lighting conditions. Kurt was right about Irons being fast up close. There I said it. Like most type A personalities I hate admitting when I am wrong.

VIDEOS of yours truly.
MAK 90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSNdlDMpiM

Saiga AK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j3i_n7LuP0 (Shooting)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhFbYB55mis (targets)


AR10 first day when I was faster but sucked on hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMyOusJghBw

AR10 on the second day (when I slowed down a bit)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK3b6Fif-xE

Colt 6920 Aimpoint

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFlJVVZDx68

Noveske (using Aimpoint T1 in Larue off set mount)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi7DKYdU6Q8

Noveske (using ACOG)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksh8WqmXNIY

Larue Stealth with Swarovski
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyAJAC1-Ufs

Saber Defense A2 (Irons)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDBqlNeoJG8 Shooting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=721rZXLU1dg Targets

STI EDGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmNrsFoq2c8


12-8-09 Range Report Guns used Noveske N4 with Ta 33 ACOG, T1 Aimpoint and Troy sights. Also a DPMS M4, Glock 17, Spikes 22 lr AR and Browning Buckmark.

Shooter S13 (one of my patrol officers) Gun DPMS M4 Target APD DOC qualification target.

Targets were placed 7 yards from the shooter each target was set 3 yards apart.

Time

1. 3.56
2. 3.39
3. 3.09
4. 2.93
5. 2.98
Average time 3.19

Hits

27 A 3C


Shooter S13 Gun Glock 17

Time

1. 4.41
2. 4.56
3. 4.56
4. 4.50
5. 4.00
Average time 4.41

Hits

20 A 8 C 2 D

Shooter S13 Gun Noveske with Irons

Time

1. 3.89
2. 3.41
3. 3.39
4. 3.51
5. 3.39

Average time 3.52

Hits

30 A

Shooter S13 Gun Noveske with Aimpoint T1

Time

1. 3.50
2. 3.12
3. 2.93
4. 3.07
5. 2.91
Average Time 3.11

Hits 29 A 1 Delta

Shooter S13 Gun Noveske with TA 33 ACOG

Time
1. 4.84
2. 4.32
3. 4.00
4. 3.53
5. 3.32
Average Time 4.00

Hits 29 A 1 C

Shooter S13 Gun Spikes 22LR M4 with Aimpoint.

Time

1. 3.73
2. 3.27
3. 2.89
4. 2.70
5. 2.93
Average time 3.10

Hits 29 A 1 C

Shooter S13 Gun Browning Buck Mark Pistol with Tasco Pro Point Red Dot sight.

Time

1. 4.02
2. 3.85
3. 4.12
4. 4.52
5. 3.52
Average time 4.00

Hits 27 A 3 C


Shooter Me Gun Spikes 22 M4

Time
1. 2.55
2. 2.69
3. 2.69
4. 2.55
5. 2.85
Average Time 2.66

Hits 29 A 1 C

Shooter Me Gun Browning Buck Mark 22 pistol with Red Dot sight

Time

1. 3.16
2. 3.48
3. 3.36
4. 3.47
5. 3.15
Average time 3.32

Hits 28 A 2 C


Shooter Me gun Noveske Troy Back Up Irons

Time
1. 3.09
2. 2.63
3. 2.67
4. 2.74
5. 2.61
Average Time 2.75
Hits 29 A 1 C

Shooter Me Gun Noveske Optic Aimpoint T1 Red dot

Time
1. 2.79
2. 2.85
3. 2.88
4. 3.01
5. 2.43
Average Time 2.79
Hits 25 A 5 C

Shooter Me Gun Noveske Optic TA33 ACOG

Time
1. 3.43
2. 2.61
3. 2.64
4. 2.77
5. 3.06
Average Time 2.90
HITS 29 A 1 Delta

Summary

Pistol Scores

Me 22 Pistol with Red dot
Time 3.32
Hits 28A 2 C


Rifle Scores

Spikes 22 LR
Time 2.66
Hits 29A 1C

Noveske Irons
Time 2.75
Hits 29A 1 C

Noveske Red Dot
Time 2.79
Hits 25 A 5 C

Noveske ACOG
Time 2.90
Hits 29A 1 D

SHOOTER S13

Pistol

Glock 17
Time 4.41
Hits 20A 8C 2D

Browning 22 Pistol with Red Dot
Time 4.00
Hits 27A 3C

Rifles

DPMS Duty gun Iron Sights
Time 3.19
Hits 27A 3C

Noveske Irons
Time 3.52
Hits 30A

Noveske Aimpoint
Time 3.11
Hits 29A 1D

Noveske ACOG
Time 4.00
Hits 29A 1C

Spikes 22lr AR15 with Red dot
Time 3.10
Hits 29A 1C


S13 has had a lot more handgun training than he has had training with his patrol rifle. Yet he did much better in both time and accuracy with his patrol rifle.


12-22-09 More tests.

Stag AR15 carbine. Irons

1. 2.80
2. 2.89
3. 2.54
4. 2.72
5. 2.59
Average 2.70

Hits 30 A.

Wilson 45

1. 3.53
2. 3.55
3. 3.51
4. 3.50
5. 3.45
6. 3.53
Average 3.51

Hits 36 A

STI 9mm

1. 3.45
2. 3.42
3. 3.02
4. 4.15
5. 3.52
Average 3.51

Hits 25 A 5 C

Glock 17

1. 3.52
2. 3.43
3. 3.19
4. 3.54
5. 3.09
Average 3.35

Hits 26 A 3C 1 D

Sig 228

1. 3.45
2. 3.46
3. 3.81
4. 3.64
5. 4.17
Average 3.70

Hits 29 A 1C

Smith 19 357 mag full house loads.

1. 4.06
2. 4.54
3. 4.12
4. 3.99
5. 4.41
Average 4.22

Smith 25 converted to 45 ACP

1. 3.92
2. 3.94
3. 4.52
4. 4.43
5. 4.30
Average 4.22

Hits 26A 3C 1Miss



SEAN

Stag AR
1. 7.84
2. 9.02
3. 6.95
4. 5.66
5. 5.51
6. 6.98
7. 5.90
8. 5.64
9. 5.24
10. 5.97
Average 6.47

Hits 56A 4C

SEAN Ruger SR9

1. 7.64
2. 9.64
3. 10.19
4. 8.91
5. 9.36
6. 7.11
7. 7.72
8. 8.86
9. 8.82
10. 9.94
Average 8.82

HITS 28A 24 C 7D 1 Miss

Walther P 22

1. 6.71
2. 7.82
3. 7.57
4. 6.95
5. 6.92
6. 9.07
7. 7.47
8. 7.72
9. 5.97
10. 6.78
Average 7.30

Hits 56A 4C

SEAN Glock 17

1. 6.78
2. 8.19
3. 7.16
4. 7.75
5. 7.51
Average 7.48

Hits 28A 2C

12-26-09

Scott. Glock 34

Time
1. 3.18
2. 2.88
3. 2.92
4. 2.85
5. 2.94
Average 2.95

Hits 27A 3 C

Scott RRA .223 with Meopta

1. 3.84
2. 3.54
3. 3.60
4. 3.06
5. 3.35
6. 3.73
7. 3.67
8. 3.23
9. 3.16
10. 3.20
Average 3.43

Hits 52A 7 C 1D.

Pat Noveske N4 Aimpoint T1

1. 2.44
2. 2.45
3. 2.41
4. 2.42
5. 2.27
Average 2.40
Hits 28A 2C

Pat Wilson CQB 45 acp

1. 3.49
2. 3.36
3. 3.53
4. 3.53
5. 3.42
Average 3,47

Hits 27 A 2C 1D

Pat RRA
1. 2.93
2. 3.00
3. 2.59
4. 2.52
5. 2.59
Average 2.73
Hits 29A 1C

1-19-10 Alaskacop and me with new scope on Colt and Daniel Defense

Me With Colt and TR 24

1. 2.50
2. 2.21
3. 2.43
4. 2.21
5. 2.41
6. 2.57
7. 2.65
8. 2.53
9. 2.57
10. 2.61
Average 2.46
Hits 49 A 1 C

Me with Daniel Defense

1. 2.82
2. 2.86
3. 2.82
4. 2.91
5. 2.76
Average 2.83
Hits 29 A 1 C

Alaskacop556

MSAR (STG556 Aug clone)

Time
1. 3.42
2. 3.00
3. 2.68
4. 2.83
5. 3.06
6. 3.11
7. 2.80
8. 3.18
9. 3.08
10. 3.15
Average 3.03

Hits 59 A 1 C

Alaskacop556 Pistol (Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special in 45 acp)

Time
1. 4.74
2. 4.54
3. 4.33
4. 3.81
5. 3.79
Average 4.24

Hits 16A 14C
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Old 01-19-2010, 23:15   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
No I have not. In fact I have found it to be about equal. When comparing my TR24, Swarovski Z6i and my various RDS sights during this 7 yard drill.
Pat
Nice, thx! Any problems shooting from unconventional positions w/sloppy cheekweld?
Tomac
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Old 01-19-2010, 23:32   #8
Alaskapopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomac View Post
Nice, thx! Any problems shooting from unconventional positions w/sloppy cheekweld?
Tomac
I have not trained that hard with it yet. Yes I bet it will be more difficult than using a red dot in those positions. But it does have forgiving eye relief on 1x. With everything there is trade offs. For close range a Red dot sight is great. But they suck as the range extends. They also suck for target identification. They also suck for those of us with astigmatism.
Pat
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Last edited by Alaskapopo; 01-19-2010 at 23:35..
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Old 01-20-2010, 00:21   #9
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Thanks for the report.
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Old 01-20-2010, 16:21   #10
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Alaska

Thanks for the time, money and effort, being an AR newbie, I really appreciate the info!
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Old 01-23-2010, 23:14   #11
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What the hell's wrong with you? Never, ever pose an AR with laundry products.



Just kidding. Thanks for the info.
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Old 01-24-2010, 10:44   #12
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Good post Pat. Looks chilly!! Sorry if I missed it but does your TR24 have the triangle or German reticle?
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Old 01-24-2010, 14:14   #13
Alaskapopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snappydad View Post
Good post Pat. Looks chilly!! Sorry if I missed it but does your TR24 have the triangle or German reticle?
Red Triangle
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