GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-19-2010, 18:13   #1
PghJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,794
Why 5" for 45ACP Ammo

It seems like with all other caliber the published data is for a 4" barrel, but for 45 ACP it is for a 5" barrel. I personnally do not know anyone that carries a full size 1911. Both of my 45 ACP guns are 4", a Kimber Compact and an XD45 compact. I always wonder if the bullet will be going fast enough out of a 4" barrel to expand, so I end up carrying +p ammo in them. I can handle the +p, but it would be easier with standard pressure loads. I saw some data that 3" barrels do not do well with standard 45 ACP ammo. but I have never seen anything on a 4" barrel. I assume since they give the velocity in a 5" barrel they are saying that is the barrel length the bullet was designed to be fired from.

I just go a few boxes of Winchester PDX1's and it has a 5" barrel velocity of 920 fps. It does not come in +p, so I wonder how they will perform out of my 4" barrels.
PghJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 18:29   #2
Wil Terry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 307
You do now !!!!

You can carry a 5" 1911 as easily as anything shorter. It is the butt that is hard to conceal, and that too is easily solved.
Wil Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 18:45   #3
Berto
woo woo
 
Berto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: WA
Posts: 29,683


Historically, the only .45auto pistol common was a 1911 with a 5" bbl, so the barrel length of choice was 5".

Today, the general rule is to run 200gr in the 4" and 185gr in the 3.5" for assured expansion....but keep in mind, it's already a .45.
__________________
I had the money till they made me pay
Then I had the sense to be on my way
I had to stay in the underground
I was in the house when the house burned down.
Berto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 18:48   #4
Brass Nazi
NO BRASS FOR U!
 
Brass Nazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wil Terry View Post
You can carry a 5" 1911 as easily as anything shorter. It is the butt that is hard to conceal, and that too is easily solved.
Yep, The only advantage that a shorter slide gives you is a quicker draw. But, you would probably have to be a competent competitor gaming in order to see the difference.


Also due to the lower operating pressure of the ACP and the faster powders that are used the difference in barrel length will not make as big of a difference as it would with other cartridges.
__________________
Factory ammunition Sucks!
Brass Nazi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 18:52   #5
KiloBravo
Lifetime Newb
 
KiloBravo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
I personnally do not know anyone that carries a full size 1911. Both of my 45 ACP guns are
You do now. I carry a 5" 1911 everyday rather easily. They are very slim guns and I thick the thickness is what makes a gun tough to conceal, not necessarily the length. Another key is learning to dress around the gun, and not settle for something you don't shoot that well just because it is convenient.

Just my $0.02 and YMMV.
__________________
*Professional Babysitter*
KiloBravo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 19:59   #6
CanyonMan
In The Saddle
 
CanyonMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,902
Being a 1911 45acp guy for, well, 40 years at least. I can tell you that 3" 4" 5" all work well with a 230gr bullet. I am a minority on GT, (even with some of my good friends here ). But, I use FMJ 230gr in all sizes of my 45's.

There is nothing to carrying a 5" GOV size 1911. I am 6'0" and 210#'s and no fat. (well maybe a pinch), and can conceal my weapon fine. I can carry a G20 fine as well. It is all in just getting it right for you. I have one of my brothers that is like 5'7", and carrries a full size 1911 45.

That being said, and back to ammo. Yes most all ammo for a 45acp is based on the 5" barrel, that was the common standard for this round (230gr) in the begining and still is. That does NOT mean you cannot use it in the commander and compact size. I have carried in the past a Colt Defender 3" like the G30 in size and barrel length. It did just as well as my 5". It is the wonder and the glory of the 45acp. 830/900fps it does not matter. You obviously pick up a tad vel in a 5" over a 3" barrel. This is true for all calibers and guns pretty much you loose a tad vel with the barrel getting shorter. But again, the beauty and mystery of the 45acp is that it just flat does not seem to make a difference on the business end. It performs.

A lot of people run out and buy all the designer 185gr +p's to get that puppy smokin for them. Ridiculous. That 45 will work just fine with the 230gr. It is not a speed demon, and does not need to be. Out of a 3" barrel, the 230gr FMJ will go through a arm and still get in the trunk of the body and to the vitals (of course anything can go wrong), let the reader understand. But it works just as well as the the 5". Why get a goV size then ? Good question at this point. Simple. You gain about 90fps with the 5" with most factory ammo, and this turns people on!

Yes I like the 5", but YES I carry a 3" at times with NO reservations at all but prefer the original 5" Gov..... Why do I carry the 5" ? I like the better sight plane... That is it. It is not to gain the extra few FPS.. This caliber works well at 3-4-5" with 230gr. Why sacrifice and drop down to a 185 or less gr bullet? makes no sense. Do not fall for the "Short Barrel ammo crap." This is a marketing ploy. Good lands what is'nt a marketing ploy anymore? LOL

I carry a Kimber Pro carry II quite often, in commander size. All with 230gr FMJ.

Do NOT look for nor expect the magic mushroom bullet to show up either. There is not such a bullet in this caliber or any other. Gel test and water jug test do not mean squat as to real world in a human being performance of a bullet. They give a small guide line, and I am reluctant to even give these test that much credit. I am a major critic of jello block and water bottle test that provide a picture perfect mushroom, and tell me nothing.

If someone wants to shoot through milk jugs filled with shredded news paper and water, fine... Put some soaked bones (not dry), and some pork meat or beef and some solid and hollow organs from the gut barrel down at the slaughter house in between those bottles, and a t-shirt flannel shirt, and leather jacket over the front..... Then shoot.

Now we will no longer see the picture perfect mushroom, but a clogged JHP that did not get to much penetration. I admit that in 9mm I am not afraid to use FMJ, but I would suggest JHP's in the 9mm 40cal and 10mm and 357sig, for the mere fact they are very fast light and zippy, although again, I have no fear of their use in FMJ. Not a contridiction of myself, just my philosophy through my "experience." Not through what I read or heard or think, but from what I have done with these calibers and loads in various applications. Some I do not want to talk about, and some out here on the ranch, were through test through hind quarters of beef covered in organs, and real clothes. Not 4 layers of denim. That is BS. (the 4 layers of denim).

Any way. 230gr Gold Dot. 230gr. XTP, and 230gr ball ammo are the ONLY three choices IMO and for "me", in the 45acp. I will say this as well, sounds like a contridiction... In the shorter barrels 4" and especially 3" it is 230gr FMJ or I won't carry the gun. In fact amigo I carry 230gr FMJ in them all. Just saying that if this scares folks, I always suggest the 230gr XTP next, then the 230GR GD. In this order.

Let me say this asell. I do prefer a Round nose flat point in the FMJ to get that little Meplat. That really helps a great deal. More than most think. It is very hard to find in a factory offering, but a load all my carry ammo, and hunting ammo so I do not worry about it.

Over penetration is not a concern with me at all. Missing is.


Don't know that I helped ya in any way. All I got are MY own exeriences and what I have done and for how long and to what who.


God bless ya.
Stay safe





CanyonMan
__________________
You boy's saddled this bronc, now let's see if you can ride it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Jesus said: You who are without sin cast the first stone.. John 8: 7

Last edited by CanyonMan; 01-19-2010 at 20:26..
CanyonMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 20:11   #7
BMcDonald7
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 39
230gr will be fine in a 4" Barrel. I have shot about 12 HST bullets out of my HK45c (like 3.9in) into water jugs, wet pack etc and not had 1 fail to fully expand. Even into 4-layers of denim they performed the same. My dad has the full sized HK45 with a 5" barrel and we shot an HST into water jugs and it expanded to over 1" with 1 petal even breaking off in the last jug. The same goes for 230gr Ranger-T. I would say stay away from the +P as it just gives you more recoil and maybe another inch of penetration, but the standard pressure already penetrates over 12 inches so....
BMcDonald7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 20:18   #8
SIGShooter
Hucklebucks
 
SIGShooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,895
They make different sized barrels for 1911s other than 5"???

Where the hell is the memo???

I didn't get one!!!
SIGShooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 20:23   #9
CanyonMan
In The Saddle
 
CanyonMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGShooter View Post
They make different sized barrels for 1911s other than 5"???

Where the hell is the memo???

I didn't get one!!!




I hear ya hoss. I am just trying to throw out to this OP some variables...
I do prefer the 5". The others are fun to shoot. But you really nailed it.. Wow they really are making them shorter.. The hem line has went up every time you turn around huh ?



Stay safe Bud.




CanyonMan
__________________
You boy's saddled this bronc, now let's see if you can ride it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Jesus said: You who are without sin cast the first stone.. John 8: 7

Last edited by CanyonMan; 01-19-2010 at 21:24.. Reason: spelling
CanyonMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 22:32   #10
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 21,638
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brass Nazi View Post
Yep, The only advantage that a shorter slide gives you is a quicker draw. But, you would probably have to be a competent competitor gaming in order to see the difference.


Also due to the lower operating pressure of the ACP and the faster powders that are used the difference in barrel length will not make as big of a difference as it would with other cartridges.
Well owning, training with & carrying 3", 4" & 5" 1911, there def. is a diff. when it comes to comfortable CCW. The longer slide just likes to dig in when you sit, especially in a car. The lt.wt. Comm is great for carry & pleasent to shoot. My OM is also nice for carry & about the same as the lt.wt. COmm for shooting.
AS to ammo, I have no issue using any std 230grJHP load, even in the OM, but like the Speer 230grGDSB there. For the OM, I do prefer the 185gr WWSTHP or the 200grXTP. Both will still hit 900fps in the short bbl, expand well & easy to get good followup shots. I'll leave the +P ammo for the hairy chested all steel gun shooters. I like to hit what I aim at in a hurry, everytime. There are few bad choices in 45acp, even ball works to some extent, but a bit slippery for me. A 230grLTC would be nice though.
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 01-19-2010 at 22:36..
fredj338 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 22:59   #11
CanyonMan
In The Saddle
 
CanyonMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Well owning, training with & carrying 3", 4" & 5" 1911, there def. is a diff. when it comes to comfortable CCW. The longer slide just likes to dig in when you sit, especially in a car. The lt.wt. Comm is great for carry & pleasent to shoot. My OM is also nice for carry & about the same as the lt.wt. COmm for shooting.
AS to ammo, I have no issue using any std 230grJHP load, even in the OM, but like the Speer 230grGDSB there. For the OM, I do prefer the 185gr WWSTHP or the 200grXTP. Both will still hit 900fps in the short bbl, expand well & easy to get good followup shots. I'll leave the +P ammo for the hairy chested all steel gun shooters. I like to hit what I aim at in a hurry, everytime. There are few bad choices in 45acp, even ball works to some extent, but a bit slippery for me. A 230grLTC would be nice though.


LOL. Agreed.









CM
__________________
You boy's saddled this bronc, now let's see if you can ride it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Jesus said: You who are without sin cast the first stone.. John 8: 7
CanyonMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010, 00:07   #12
RMTactical
CLM Number
www.AR15pro.net
 
RMTactical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Behind an AR-15
Posts: 29,877


The stuff I have tested in my 4.25" commander have worked well so far. More tests pending though.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Due to inflation, my $.02 no longer matters.
RMTactical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010, 01:57   #13
coal
Senior Member
 
coal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
... But, I use FMJ 230gr in all sizes of my 45's. ... Yes most all ammo for a 45acp is based on the 5" barrel, that was the common standard for this round (230gr) in the begining and still is. .... That 45 will work just fine with the 230gr. It is not a speed demon, and does not need to be. ... Do NOT look for nor expect the magic mushroom bullet to show up either. ...
Agreed. The 230gr is all I use, or will given the choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Well owning, training with & carrying 3", 4" & 5" 1911, there def. is a diff. when it comes to comfortable CCW. The longer slide just likes to dig in when you sit, especially in a car. ...
Agreed. I can't reasonably CCW a 5" all day, but can with my 4" Compact.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
(
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
) |
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
coal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010, 05:44   #14
PghJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,794
Thanks for your opinions, I own many 5" 1911's but due to shoulder issues and hiding the butt, I prefer 4" with a compact frame for CC. From what I am hearing, I should not wory about it.
PghJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010, 06:15   #15
BuckyP
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
BuckyP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
Thanks for your opinions, I own many 5" 1911's but due to shoulder issues and hiding the butt, I prefer 4" with a compact frame for CC. From what I am hearing, I should not wory about it.
Speer does make ammo specifically designed for shorter barrels, appropriately labeled:

"Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection"
BuckyP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010, 07:54   #16
CanyonMan
In The Saddle
 
CanyonMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
Thanks for your opinions, I own many 5" 1911's but due to shoulder issues and hiding the butt, I prefer 4" with a compact frame for CC. From what I am hearing, I should not wory about it.



Exactly right.........


Good shooting.




CanyonMan
__________________
You boy's saddled this bronc, now let's see if you can ride it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Jesus said: You who are without sin cast the first stone.. John 8: 7
CanyonMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010, 11:19   #17
Iceman cHucK
Senior Member
 
Iceman cHucK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: WA state
Posts: 461
Word for word I agree with everything CandyMan, oh , I meant CanyonMan has said. In addition I like the 230fmjFlatPoint. Hornady makes the bullet, and Dt has a hot load for it.

I like 5" 1911s and have three of them, all steel. I grew up on the full size from my military service, like the balance, sight plane ,velocity, and recoil. I would not hesitate to carry a commander length but prefer the 5".
Tried a couple of shorties (3") years ago and found them to be nothing but trouble and got rid of them. Not reliable!

Now, I'm not hairy chested but my SA 1911 is "springed up" for 45Super. What a hoot. 230GDhp at 1100fps (approx 635fpe)! This is getting max potential from a 45acp and is getting it into the range of a warm 45Colt load. Recoil is stout, but similar to a hot big bore revolver. And the best part is that it still functions 100% with standard 230ball and /or 230+P.
Iceman cHucK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010, 11:22   #18
Cineski
Senior Member
 
Cineski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 410
This country's thought process seems to be stuck in 1911 formula with the 45 platform. Even the newer polymers with thumb safeties mostly come in the 45 acp or at least started with this caliber. It's just the dogma of the 45 that no other caliber suffers from.
Cineski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010, 11:49   #19
CanyonMan
In The Saddle
 
CanyonMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman cHucK View Post
Word for word I agree with everything CandyMan, oh , I meant CanyonMan has said. In addition I like the 230fmjFlatPoint. Hornady makes the bullet, and Dt has a hot load for it.

I like 5" 1911s and have three of them, all steel. I grew up on the full size from my military service, like the balance, sight plane ,velocity, and recoil. I would not hesitate to carry a commander length but prefer the 5".
Tried a couple of shorties (3") years ago and found them to be nothing but trouble and got rid of them. Not reliable!

Now, I'm not hairy chested but my SA 1911 is "springed up" for 45Super. What a hoot. 230GDhp at 1100fps (approx 635fpe)! This is getting max potential from a 45acp and is getting it into the range of a warm 45Colt load. Recoil is stout, but similar to a hot big bore revolver. And the best part is that it still functions 100% with standard 230ball and /or 230+P.


LOL... IC, I'm going to use you for test media if you ain't careful now... LOL

Just kidding Amigo.


Stay safe my friend !


CanyonMan
AKA CandyMan
__________________
You boy's saddled this bronc, now let's see if you can ride it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Jesus said: You who are without sin cast the first stone.. John 8: 7
CanyonMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2010, 12:03   #20
BuckyP
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
BuckyP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
CanyonMan
AKA CandyMan
Hehe.

Caliber Corner
BuckyP is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:57.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 732
149 Members
583 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42