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Old 12-19-2009, 07:51   #1
Renceri
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Penetration

If you are sleeping then you are awaken by an intruder banging the door of your room,can the .40 180gr federal hst or 147 gr hst penetrate my wooden door which is 1 1/4 inch thick? If not, then I will just take defensive position then wait for him to open my door then after that i will start shooting him.your opinions are welcome.

Last edited by Renceri; 12-19-2009 at 07:55..
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:06   #2
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Shooting someone banging on your door, through the door will land you a felony and prison time. No immenint reasonable fear from a person on the other side of a closed door.
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:16   #3
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As long as the the door is still closed/locked, he is still outside, you have time to call 911 and take up a defensive position with your pistol. Now if for some reason he comes thru the door before police arrive, then by all means shoot him.

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Old 12-19-2009, 08:21   #4
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What i mean is he is already inside your house and you are inside one of your rooms that is locked but he is banging and trying to open your room in which you are sleeping.
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Old 12-19-2009, 08:29   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renceri View Post
If you are sleeping then you are awaken by an intruder banging the door of your room,can the .40 180gr federal hst or 147 gr hst penetrate my wooden door which is 1 1/4 inch thick? If not, then I will just take defensive position then wait for him to open my door then after that i will start shooting him.your opinions are welcome.
Though I have no comment regarding the particular scenario you described above, a .40 180gr HST will have no problem penetrating a 1 1/4 inch thick door. I shot a .40 180gr HST through both a 4x4 AND 2x4 (~5" of wood in total)and then it went into sand a couple inches. The 165gr bonded Gold Dot performed similarly. Keep in mind that shooting through a thick piece of solid wood will likely plug the hollow point giving you what's essentially an FMJ.

You may wish to read my other posting.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1084469

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Old 12-19-2009, 08:58   #6
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In what I can gather from other tests and such, for barrier penetration you really want a bonded bullet (which I do not believe the HST is, Speer Gold Dots and Winchester PDX1 are bonded) or a solid copper bullet from say Magtech or Cor Bon. Also, it would appear that smaller diameter and faster bullets penetrate barriers better than big heavy bullets. In all tests that I remember the .357 Sig with hot 125 grain loads is the barrier penetrating king with 9mm 124 grain +p loads pulling in second. But that is what I gather from the research that I have done and I am sure someone will post after me and shoot me down.

As far as the scenario goes, shooting through a closed door even if he is in the house is not a smart idea, the blood sucking lawyers will destroy you in court. Nearly all classes teach you to lock yourself in a room, handgun in one hand and a cell phone in the other and to call the police. If he smashes into the room and poses a serious threat, by all means, defend yourself. The phone is just as much a weapon as the handgun. Just like in combat, the radio can be a more powerful weapon than your assault rifle. Call for help.
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Old 12-19-2009, 10:49   #7
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The law in some states --- if I remember correctly --- is that if someone is trying to break into your home and you reasonably fear for your life you do not have to wait until the perp succeeds in entering the premises. A defender can shoot through a door or window to prevent a deadly attack.

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NC GENERAL STATUTE 14‑51.1. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder. (This is commonly called the "Castle Doctrine.")

(a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry (i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or (ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.

(b) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence does not have a duty to retreat from an intruder in the circumstances described in this section.
After one unsettling night in a remote cabin I decided I needed a serious handgun instead of the pocket .380ACP I then owned. I decided on .357sig after putting a bit of study into the matter, and one of the factors leading to the decision was learning that it's not necessary to wait until an intruder has entered the premises.

Check your state's law if you're uncertain.
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Old 12-19-2009, 10:57   #8
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
The law in some states --- if I remember correctly --- is that if someone is trying to break into your home and you reasonably fear for your life you do not have to wait until the perp succeeds in entering the premises.

yes this is correct but i dont know if this law applies in california also.
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Old 12-19-2009, 11:53   #9
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Originally Posted by G21FAN View Post
Shooting someone banging on your door, through the door will land you a felony and prison time. No immenint reasonable fear from a person on the other side of a closed door.
Actually, depends on the state and local laws.

That said, it may not always be wise to shoot through doors... For several reasons...
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Old 12-19-2009, 12:13   #10
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there's two types of threats involved here. One is sufficient to prevent legal action (civil AND criminal) and that standard is different in states with a 'stand your ground' law.

The 2nd standard is REALLY in fear of your life, armed assailant and no expectation of police response inside the critical time frame..and you REALLY need to use deadly force to survive the experience. This doesn't necessarily play well in court, so how you tell it, and how good your lawyer is, are both relevant TO THE COURT CASE. Not to your need for armed response, cause YOU make that call. AFTER you've made that judgment call, a lawyer to clean up the mess is highly appropriate. Know one, have his business card on you, and have a retainer already paid. HAVE A LAWYER, and TELL them you do, and ask for medical treatment and legal advice. MAKE NO STATEMENT! Your lawyer will do that, AFTER you've had an examination (for shock/trauma/grief) and AFTER you've made a statement to HIM (or her), which serves as grounds to limit interviews/interrrogation..Having a lawyer on tap is your first after-incident requirement, and DO have that lawyer with you during depositions.

No exceptions. And no rules on excluding lawyers if they're YOUR lawyers, otherwise they're not permitted. Specifically it's ok to have TRAVELING lawyers, but statements of fact are verifiably critical to your future and it's important to have the facts available. Just YOU don't stand responsible for the accuracy of said facts, that's the lawyers job.
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Old 12-19-2009, 12:24   #11
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Just wanted to point out that in most homes built in the last few decades the interior 1-1/4" doors are hollow core that has a honeycomb of cardboard for support and a thin masonite skin. Not much of a barrier.

Even if your doors really are solid wood, a 180 grain .40 will go through with some steam to spare. Particle board and hardwoods will put up a little more resistance than pine.
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Old 12-19-2009, 14:43   #12
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Originally Posted by mitchshrader View Post
there's two types of threats involved here. One is sufficient to prevent legal action (civil AND criminal) and that standard is different in states with a 'stand your ground' law.

The 2nd standard is REALLY in fear of your life, armed assailant and no expectation of police response inside the critical time frame..and you REALLY need to use deadly force to survive the experience. This doesn't necessarily play well in court, so how you tell it, and how good your lawyer is, are both relevant TO THE COURT CASE. Not to your need for armed response, cause YOU make that call. AFTER you've made that judgment call, a lawyer to clean up the mess is highly appropriate. Know one, have his business card on you, and have a retainer already paid. HAVE A LAWYER, and TELL them you do, and ask for medical treatment and legal advice. MAKE NO STATEMENT! Your lawyer will do that, AFTER you've had an examination (for shock/trauma/grief) and AFTER you've made a statement to HIM (or her), which serves as grounds to limit interviews/interrrogation..Having a lawyer on tap is your first after-incident requirement, and DO have that lawyer with you during depositions.

No exceptions. And no rules on excluding lawyers if they're YOUR lawyers, otherwise they're not permitted. Specifically it's ok to have TRAVELING lawyers, but statements of fact are verifiably critical to your future and it's important to have the facts available. Just YOU don't stand responsible for the accuracy of said facts, that's the lawyers job.
so what your saying is that even if you waited for the intruder to break the door then after that you shot him and he was killed,you will will still have civil and criminal liability eventhough you are defending yourself?
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Old 12-19-2009, 14:52   #13
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california also has castle doctrine.i just check it.
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Old 12-19-2009, 17:27   #14
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Howdy Renceri,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renceri View Post
What i mean is he is already inside your house and you are inside one of your rooms that is locked but he is banging and trying to open your room in which you are sleeping.
Wait for him to break the door down first.

Paul
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:27   #15
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Originally Posted by mitchshrader View Post
there's two types of threats involved here. One is sufficient to prevent legal action (civil AND criminal) and that standard is different in states with a 'stand your ground' law.

The 2nd standard is REALLY in fear of your life, armed assailant and no expectation of police response inside the critical time frame..and you REALLY need to use deadly force to survive the experience. This doesn't necessarily play well in court, so how you tell it, and how good your lawyer is, are both relevant TO THE COURT CASE. Not to your need for armed response, cause YOU make that call. AFTER you've made that judgment call, a lawyer to clean up the mess is highly appropriate. Know one, have his business card on you, and have a retainer already paid. HAVE A LAWYER, and TELL them you do, and ask for medical treatment and legal advice. MAKE NO STATEMENT! Your lawyer will do that, AFTER you've had an examination (for shock/trauma/grief) and AFTER you've made a statement to HIM (or her), which serves as grounds to limit interviews/interrrogation..Having a lawyer on tap is your first after-incident requirement, and DO have that lawyer with you during depositions.

No exceptions. And no rules on excluding lawyers if they're YOUR lawyers, otherwise they're not permitted. Specifically it's ok to have TRAVELING lawyers, but statements of fact are verifiably critical to your future and it's important to have the facts available. Just YOU don't stand responsible for the accuracy of said facts, that's the lawyers job.
Dont forget the HUGE $$$$ RETAINER fee your lawyer will need, BEFORE he takes your case.
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:50   #16
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Just wanted to point out that in most homes built in the last few decades the interior 1-1/4" doors are hollow core that has a honeycomb of cardboard for support and a thin masonite skin. Not much of a barrier.

Even if your doors really are solid wood, a 180 grain .40 will go through with some steam to spare. Particle board and hardwoods will put up a little more resistance than pine.
Good point, Steve.

Nowadays building materials are much less dense than those of just 30 years ago. "Hollow-core" doors are the rule and where there used to be lattice and plaster construction we now see 1/2 inch drywall on stick frame composed of mostly "open" structure.

I've investigated several (8) shootings over my LE career where homeowners have shot (and killed) intruders (burglars) through bedroom doors and interior walls when the suspect was inside their homes.

Never, did I ever, or another Detective, charge them for the act.

I doubt that it would be a very rare case indeed that someone would be charged for shooting a burglar (or an unknown intruder) within their home and would've never done so myself where the homeowner was truly a victim.

It has been my professional experience that folks involved in lawful self-defense situations like this never "lawyer-up" because it becomes evident very quickly to them that they are not going to face prosecution for their lawfully executed actions.

Even before Ohio enacted "Castle Doctrine" this was the case since none of us could ever imagine bringing before a jury, a homeowner charged criminally in the defense of their home.

Unfortunately, this is not the case everywhere else although it ought to be.
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Old 12-20-2009, 16:15   #17
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The OP states the threat is already inside the home trying to get into Bedroom! In just about every state he would be legal in shooting through the door- I know I would! Actually for my home that would be the best senerio as I know then that the bullet that would pass through the perp would be caught in the oposing wall and not go outside my home- great back stop.
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Old 12-20-2009, 16:31   #18
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Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
The OP states the threat is already inside the home trying to get into Bedroom! In just about every state he would be legal in shooting through the door- I know I would! Actually for my home that would be the best senerio as I know then that the bullet that would pass through the perp would be caught in the oposing wall and not go outside my home- great back stop.
you are correct.why wait if you can shoot the intruder while he is trying to open your bedroom door.
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Old 12-20-2009, 18:48   #19
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ID your target first????
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Old 12-20-2009, 19:21   #20
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I don't think there is a legal issue with shooting an INTRUDER INSIDE your house banging to get inside your BEDROOM door. However, you don't know exactly where behind the door he is right? Seems to make more sense for you (and your spouse) to take defensive cover, and be ready for the door to smash open, hopefully you made the 911 call.... BTW, isn't one of the 4 rules to "be sure of your target" I wanna know what I'm gonna hit. I'm gonna hear someone smashing into my home in the first place and be ready before he finds his way upstairs. My daughter's room is accross from mine, I will not be hiding behind my bedroom door.
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Old 12-20-2009, 19:58   #21
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Originally Posted by Renceri View Post
If you are sleeping then you are awaken by an intruder banging the door of your room,can the .40 180gr federal hst or 147 gr hst penetrate my wooden door which is 1 1/4 inch thick? If not, then I will just take defensive position then wait for him to open my door then after that i will start shooting him.your opinions are welcome.
The ammo. listed will go through the door. Consult an Attorney that knows the gun laws in your state for Legal advise.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:50   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegriz18 View Post
ID your target first????
Bingo... No way I'd ever shoot through a wooden door.

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Old 12-21-2009, 05:07   #23
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a lot of good points made in this post.

i will add NC law states you can prevent them from entering you castle, once inside you have a duty to retreat and/or take cover.

if your behind a closed door i dont think its "immediate threat" unless maybe your scared they will shoot through the door.
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Old 12-21-2009, 17:16   #24
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Shooting someone banging on your door, through the door will land you a felony and prison time. No immenint reasonable fear from a person on the other side of a closed door.
Depends on what state you are in, the totality of the facts, and who's on the grand jury.

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Old 12-21-2009, 20:38   #25
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Target is ID'd as inturder-a violent one at that! Sorry no futher ID required -he's dead! Dead ones don't testify! To clearify I'm just shooting to "stop the threat" !!Wink wink-not!
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