GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-31-2010, 01:35   #1
Forty-eight
Senior Member
 
Forty-eight's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pinewood, SC
Posts: 148
Proper grip

I am in the process of setting up some proper firearms training, but I recently saw something on TV that worked for me, and I wondered if it is the right thing to do.
As someone untrained, I tend to try and emulate what I see the knowledgable people do, so over the years I have developed my own grip, based on what I see people in the know doing. I use a two hand grip, with both thumbs pointing forward. I am right handed, and so I pull the trigger with my right index finger. I recently saw on one of the TV gun instruction shows, someone teaching a class, mentioned for a shooter to keep his left arm straight, and a slight bend in the right arm. I had been doing the opposit, keeping the right arm straight and a slight bend in the left arm.
After hearing the correction, I pulled out my gun with the Crimson Trace laser and compared both methods. I wasn't shooting, only holding the laser on a far away target and noting the steadiness of the dot. It did seem that I was able to hold steadier with the left arm straight.
I thought about it, and it made sense - the trigger pull could cause unwanted movement in the arm, causing the gun to be less steady.
Sorry for the long post, but is there any truth to my uninformed deduction?
__________________
Yeah, I drank the Kool-Aid... So what!
Forty-eight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 09:03   #2
swotivated
Member
 
swotivated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 75
Why not lock out both elbows?
swotivated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 10:56   #3
David Armstrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posts: 11,125
Quote:
As someone untrained, I tend to try and emulate what I see the knowledgable people do, so over the years I have developed my own grip, based on what I see people in the know doing.
There is the first issue, IMO. If you are untrained, go find somebody who is trained and get some training yourself. There are a number of ways to present the firearm, with each addressing different issues or needs. A good basic block of instruction will go a long way toward setting you on the right path.
David Armstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 00:32   #4
Forty-eight
Senior Member
 
Forty-eight's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pinewood, SC
Posts: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
There is the first issue, IMO. If you are untrained, go find somebody who is trained and get some training yourself. There are a number of ways to present the firearm, with each addressing different issues or needs. A good basic block of instruction will go a long way toward setting you on the right path.
Please note that my very first statement indicated that I am in the process of setting up a training class. I merely posed the question to satisfy my curiosity, not to suffice as training.
I realize there are several ways to present a firearm, that is why I stated that I was right handed, using two hands, with both thumbs pointed forward.
Don't worry, I'm not planning on using the answer I get here to base my firearms handling on. So there is no issue, I just wanted to know if there was anything to keeping the trigger finger arm bent at the elbow.
__________________
Yeah, I drank the Kool-Aid... So what!

Last edited by Forty-eight; 02-01-2010 at 00:36..
Forty-eight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 07:50   #5
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 21,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forty-eight View Post
Sorry for the long post, but is there any truth to my uninformed deduction?
Obviously, or you wouldn't have been steadier.


However----what you've found that lets you steady in a square-on training set up isn't automatically what's going to answer the problem when one or both of you are moving, or when you're trying to shoot somewhere other than on your centerline. Use it where it works, but don't cling to it.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 08:30   #6
Jedburgh
Member
 
Jedburgh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 25
I hate to use a golf analogy, but the concept of grip is equally elusive for both sports. Just like in golf, other shooters are quick to point out what the "right" grip looks like. And just like in golf, you need to find a grip that is comfortable, repeatable, and allows you to perform to your maximum potential.

There are folks who advocate locking out both elbows because it's a known point. You can always lock them out the same because locking them out is a bone/joint thing and not a muscle memory thing. There are an equal number who continue to advocate the push/pull weaver-style grip (with the support arm bent slightly).

To me, firing a handgun is like any other sport. The shooter needs to adopt a fairly natural, athletic stance. Similar to throwing horseshoes and shooting a foul shot in basketball. Knees bent, relaxed and focused. In short, your grip should allow you to shoot quickly and accurately.

It should also be neutral enough to adapt to changing situations (you're moving, target's moving, firing from the prone, kneeling, using barricades, etc). If you learn a really rigid style of shooting, keep up with the pace of a gunfight will be difficult. You need a grip and stance that are natural for you so that you can employ good fundamentals during high stress.

Shoot me a pm if you need additional info.

DOL
Jedburgh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 11:01   #7
David Armstrong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Lake Charles, LA
Posts: 11,125
Quote:
Please note that my very first statement indicated that I am in the process of setting up a training class. I merely posed the question to satisfy my curiosity, not to suffice as training.
And note that my point indicates that you are asking a question that IMO cannot be adequately answered on a forum like this. As Sam points out there are issues besides "is this steady" that need to be looked at. There are a number of things that can enhance steadines that might be contra-indicated for your actual needs, or you may be doing a version of a hold incorrectly therefore deciding if another hold/grip is steadier would be based on invalid information, etc.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 02-01-2010 at 11:52..
David Armstrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 14:48   #8
PhoneCop
TeleDetective
 
PhoneCop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,972


The best grip for you is the grip that works best for you. Strangely we don't all have exactly the same sized hands, with the same grip strength, shooting the same gun. (The list is actually more complicated than that but if suffices for a start.)

Since hands, strength and guns differ I opine that it is wrong to dogmatically state that this grip or that grip is the proper way to grip the hand gun. What is best for me may not be what's best for you or someone else.

And, this only addresses grip (wrists to finger-tips).

You were actually asking about grip:
Quote:
I use a two hand grip, with both thumbs pointing forward. I am right handed, and so I pull the trigger with my right index finger
(which is also called Thumbs Forward and probably looks something like this...

Tactics and Training

though not exactly because those are not your hands)

And, stance:
Quote:
someone teaching a class, mentioned for a shooter to keep his left arm straight, and a slight bend in the right arm. I had been doing the opposit, keeping the right arm straight and a slight bend in the left arm.
I had not heard of this stance. I would love to see a link to the information or other reference.

I show students a number of different grips (and stance), encourage them to try them and ultimate choose what works best. I advocate the thumbs forward grip and isoceles, but that may not what works best for them.

However, this

Quote:
I thought about it, and it made sense - the trigger pull could cause unwanted movement in the arm, causing the gun to be less steady.
I can not agree with. If you think about it, the trigger pull is the trigger pull. You are inducing energy into the gun which done improperly can cause the sights (and therefor the the barrel) to move off the target. I can not see how a bent right arm would aid in controlling wobble created by manipulating the trigger.

Last edited by PhoneCop; 02-01-2010 at 15:00..
PhoneCop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 15:13   #9
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedburgh View Post
I hate to use a golf analogy, but the concept of grip is equally elusive for both sports. Just like in golf, other shooters are quick to point out what the "right" grip looks like. And just like in golf, you need to find a grip that is comfortable, repeatable, and allows you to perform to your maximum potential.

There are folks who advocate locking out both elbows because it's a known point. You can always lock them out the same because locking them out is a bone/joint thing and not a muscle memory thing. There are an equal number who continue to advocate the push/pull weaver-style grip (with the support arm bent slightly).

To me, firing a handgun is like any other sport. The shooter needs to adopt a fairly natural, athletic stance. Similar to throwing horseshoes and shooting a foul shot in basketball. Knees bent, relaxed and focused. In short, your grip should allow you to shoot quickly and accurately.

It should also be neutral enough to adapt to changing situations (you're moving, target's moving, firing from the prone, kneeling, using barricades, etc). If you learn a really rigid style of shooting, keep up with the pace of a gunfight will be difficult. You need a grip and stance that are natural for you so that you can employ good fundamentals during high stress.

Shoot me a pm if you need additional info.

DOL

Some of the absolute best advice I've ever seen on GT. Listen to this person - he knows what shooting's all about.

'Drew
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 01:17   #10
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 21,653
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
I am right handed, and so I pull the trigger with my right index finger. I recently saw on one of the TV gun instruction shows, someone teaching a class, mentioned for a shooter to keep his left arm straight, and a slight bend in the right arm. I had been doing the opposit, keeping the right arm straight and a slight bend in the left arm.
I'm not sure that stance is even possible for a right hand shooter? I shoot modifed weaver, & try to teach it, but like JedB & Phonecop, not all stances fit all shooters. Not even all grips fit all shooters. Keep in mind the shooting hand does all the work & the support hand does just that. The more you allow the support hand to influence your grip, the worse your shooting is likely to be.
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".
fredj338 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 16:52   #11
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I'm not sure that stance is even possible for a right hand shooter? I shoot modifed weaver, & try to teach it, but like JedB & Phonecop, not all stances fit all shooters. Not even all grips fit all shooters. Keep in mind the shooting hand does all the work & the support hand does just that. The more you allow the support hand to influence your grip, the worse your shooting is likely to be.
Yes, it's possible for a righty (I do not shoot, nor advocate shooting like this).

All my shooting hand does is : work the trigger finger, and keep the sights aligned/oriented on target. Really. That's mostly it right there.

Personally, I think stance and grip are grossly over-rated. It really don't matter in the long run, on the firing line, or in the heat of the battle what kind of grip or position you use. Use what works.



'Drew
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 13:47   #12
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 21,653
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC Drew View Post
Yes, it's possible for a righty (I do not shoot, nor advocate shooting like this).

All my shooting hand does is : work the trigger finger, and keep the sights aligned/oriented on target. Really. That's mostly it right there.

Personally, I think stance and grip are grossly over-rated. It really don't matter in the long run, on the firing line, or in the heat of the battle what kind of grip or position you use. Use what works.



'Drew
I agree, use what works. I think it does matter quite a bit though. Small changes in grip & stance can help or hurt.
AS to that odd stance mentioned, I can't even get into a position where my shooting arm bent & my support arm is straight, except maybe turning to my extreme right to engage a target (right handed).
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".
fredj338 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 14:00   #13
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Hi Fred,

Reason why I say use what works is, for example, I had a guy in a class who'd had some nerves and tissue removed from his shoulder.

'Drew
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 14:39   #14
Steel Head
Tactical Cat
 
Steel Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: A cat box in WA
Posts: 5,083
I've found that as long as I have a consitant grip I do ok no matter How my arms are bent/locked
I have BAD elbows and shoulders from bike wrecks(and youthful stupidity)
and it actually hurts me to lock out my elbows-I shoot best as of now with equaly bent arms
As long as my hands look like thisTactics and Training
and my index finger is placed on trigger to promote straight pull
I do OK
Some day I'm gonna find a good shooting coach as I've found profesional instruction always seems to pan out
Steel Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 19:48   #15
HK Dan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,418
Jed, Drew--I agree with you both whole-heartedly.

1) I too believe that stance is overrated for defensive pistol craft. You're probably going to be running, leaning around something, or shooting from retention anyway. All of that "Weaver v Isosolese" horse squeeze becomes irrelevent anyway.

2) I firmly believe Brian Enos (about this): You can never learn to shoot. You can only learn about shooting. If you aren't changing up what you do and seeking improvement constantly, you aren't acting up to your potential. Performance is the yardstick--if it works for you, do it.

3) I prefer Jed and Mr. Enos' advice. Shoot neutral and relaxed when you can. In a defensive situation, it ain't gonna happen, but at an IDPA or USPSA match? hey, it works.

As a competitive shooter of some experience, I've gotta say--this has me scratching my head. I've never heard that bit of advice given. I don't know why it would make you more steady. That said, if, impirically, it does--use it.

Dan
HK Dan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 23:06   #16
ecmills
I shoot guns.
 
ecmills's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 3,467
Locking your elbows out in isosceles is going to transmit more of the recoil into your shoulders, and take the elbows out of the equation when it comes into absorbing that force.

Ever tried playing with the angle of your elbows when bent? Angle them sharply downward (like in weaver)... versus almost straight outward (like hugging a fat man)... and you can dramatically affect the way the gun handles with just that one variable.

You can see in my avatar, that I shoot with them pretty far outward (not angled down much). That's just something that's gradually developed over time as I worked on my grip and getting the front sight to track as purely vertical (no sideways/diagonal momvement) as possible.
__________________
YouTube:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

It's not impossible to reach the slide stop
ecmills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 07:27   #17
swotivated
Member
 
swotivated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 75
ecmills avatar picture is a great example of the elbows locked out method. I like it because you're firing from the exact same position each time you pull the trigger. If you need to turn or move, just twist your hips or move your feet to get where you need to go. Your upper body stays fixed like the cannon turret on a tank. You're eyes, shoulders, arms, hands, and weapon stay fixed in the exact same relative positions.

As an added bonus, if you're wearing body armor, this position ensures you stay squared off on your target which increases the surface area of armor you're presenting to the target.

There are some situations (close in fights especially) where this position is totally useless, but I'm convinced it's the best baseline pistol grip/stance.
swotivated is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 09:32   #18
Mr. Blandings
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,192
Forty-eight,

The "left arm straight, right arm slightly bent" grip you describe sounds like D. R. Middlebrooks FIST-Fire technique.

Mr. Middlebrooks used to post rather extensively here at Glocktalk, but like so many other professional instructors I believe he grew tired of being sniped by folks who wanted to pick apart his information.

He runs his own forum which can be found with a Google search.
__________________
Alumnus:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
, Calibre Press, GLOCK,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
, Andy Stanford,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
.
Mr. Blandings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 16:08   #19
ecmills
I shoot guns.
 
ecmills's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 3,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by swotivated View Post
ecmills avatar picture is a great example of the elbows locked out method. I like it because you're firing from the exact same position each time you pull the trigger.
My elbows are bent.

But they're not bent *DOWN*

Re-read my post. My elbows are about 4"-6" futher apart than they would be with the elbows locked. But they're not angled downward like you're used to seeing with a rifle or weaver-pistol-shooter - they point outward like you're giving a very fat man a hug.

Take an isosceles stance with your elbows locked, then pull the gun back into your face about an inch. That's where I usually live during a match.
__________________
YouTube:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

It's not impossible to reach the slide stop
ecmills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 20:04   #20
Max1775
Marine Infidel
 
Max1775's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Helotes, Texas
Posts: 610
I shoot two different styles depending on the situation. I am right handed and often shoot a fully extended modified weaver style for most situations because I feel it gives me more lateral aiming movement. For precision range shooting I prefer a squared off stance for the stability.
__________________
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
"Words don't storm beaches, liberate countries, decimate enemies, or die for freedom. Marines do."
Big Dawg #1775
Max1775 is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 23:21.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,052
220 Members
832 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42