[Novocaine]

Originally Posted by RWBlue

I now wonder which # is correct.

Could they both be?
AK-47 being milled?
AKM being pressed?


BTW, M4 5.9 lb (2.7 kg) empty

To be completely anal true name never was AK-47, it was simply AK. The gun was built initially with a stamped receiver (people call it Type 1 receiver), then it was built with a milled receiver (Type 2) that was slightly heavier than Type 1. Then it was redesigned yet again (Type 3). Type 3 receiver was still forged/ milled but the loaded gun was lighter than stamped Type 1. Again, the Type designation doesn’t appear in Soviet field manuals, all these variations are called AK period. Type 3 is what Soviets began sharing with satellites, hence that’s what you see in Bulgarian guns for instance.

Speaking of Bulgarians they are calling all their military AK-type guns AR. Would be interesting to watch this discussion on Bulgarian forum.

Anyway, in late 50-ies the gun was redesigned with a stamped receiver yet again. This gun is lighter yet than the Type 3. It is called AKM and is what the vast majority of current civilian look-alikes in 7.62 X 39 are based on.

Type 3 is the most common pre-AKM variant. It’s what popularized AK in the West as milled Chinese Type 56s supplied to North Vietnam are based on it. Chinese were dumping milled guns to Vietnam en masse as they were rearming themselves with stamped Type 56. Small number of stamped 56s were imported to Vietnam too but were not nearly as prolific as milled guns. Whenever people compare AK and M16 they keep looking at Vietnam War, hence the stereotype of M16 being “unreliable” and AK being “heavy”. Lighter AKM was available even at the time and M16 became reliable but gained couple of pounds in the process.

Wiki is most certainly listing “Type 3” AK and is most certainly wrong about the unloaded weight of 4.3 kilos. 4.3 kilos sounds more like the LOADED weight with a then new ribbed steel mag.

Originally Posted by En9999

The comparison was with an M16, not an M4.

Tru dat. Point being people are so preconditioned to associate M16 with “light” and AK with a “crew served” it comes as a shock that AKM, even when loaded with a steel mag and 30 rounds of heavier ammo, is actually lighter than M16A2.

Of course if you take a typically outfitted carbine length AR (cheese grater handguards, optics, mounts, light, FG) it will be heavier than a typically outfitted civvy AKM (sling). Not to mention AKS-74.

[Novocaine]

Originally Posted by tsmo1066

It's not so much that AR maintenance is "advanced", but it IS definitely more difficult under less-than-ideal conditions. The AR has a number of tiny retention pins and springs that just BEG to get lost or misplaced when having to perform maintenance in the dark, or in near-dark situations.

I agree with that though I don’t understand what springs you’re talking about. I wasn’t addressing the ease of maintenance per se but rather the theory that AR was designed to be maintained by MIT graduates.

Originally Posted by tsmo1066

The AR also requires a further degree of breakdown in order to properly field clean than does the AK and it must be cleaned on a regular basis due to the fact that it "craps where it eats".

They both need to be cleaned on a regular basis. If your life depends on either one that is.

If it doesn’t who cares? You can simply shoot either one until it quits, then clean it. Yes it will take longer for AK to get to this point but AR handles neglect better than many piston guns. Better than FAL, M1 Carbine, Mini-14 and Kel-Tec in my experience.

Originally Posted by tsmo1066

The AK, on the other hand requires little more preventive maintenance than running an oily, knotted shoestring or Boresnake down the barrel every couple of thousand rounds to keep it banging away for near-indefinite periods of time.

Well, I wish you were the one who wrote AK filed manual for the Soviet Army, it would make a vast improvement in quality of life of countless “uneducated peasants”

[RWBlue]

Originally Posted by En9999

The comparison was with an M16, not an M4.

They are just numbers. There is no reason not to put them all on the table to make an intelligent decision.

Since we are getting anal, The thread is about the AK vs. the AR, not AKM and M16 or M4.

[Novocaine]

Originally Posted by RWBlue

They are just numbers. There is no reason not to put them all on the table to make an intelligent decision.

Since we are getting anal, The thread is about the AK vs. the AR, not AKM and M16 or M4.

I was trying to be precise in the weapon’s nomenclature only because it makes explanation of design changes easier.

With the notable exception of Bulgarians the vast majority of the currently built civilian AK look-alikes in 7.62 X 39 are based on AKM, not on AK. That is why AKM specs are a good place to look when comparing weight “in general”. Not the specs for something like Type 2 AK.

Full size M16 look-alikes mostly mimic M16A2/A4, not M16A1 or Colt 601 and as such will be heavier than a typical civilian AK-47.

ARs, of course, come in all kinds of flavors but to automatically list AR as lighter of the two does not seem appropriate to me. At very least it needs to by qualified as “carbine-length AR”.

Besides, from what I see a typically outfitted civilian AR even in carbine length is generally heavier than a typically outfitted civilian AK-47 or -74.

I will look up the numbers for AK and AKM when I'll get home. Those are the ones that seem to cause the most confusion. The rest can be looked up online easily.

[MistoGators]

AK for me.

[tsmo1066]

Originally Posted by Novocaine

Well, I wish you were the one who wrote AK filed manual for the Soviet Army, it would make a vast improvement in quality of life of countless “uneducated peasants”

There's a world of difference between "field manual" and "field EXPEDIENT".

I didn't say that a shoestring and some oil was the RECOMMENDED way to clean an AK, nor did I state anything about field manuals. You must surely know the difference between a "by the book" weapon cleaning and the minimum, field-expedient maintenance necessary to keep a weapon running.

The AR requires far more minimal maintenance than the AK to keep it running, and even the best AR will start malfunctioning in short order if not cleaned thoroughly after a couple of sessions of heavy use. The same is not true for the AK. An AK can often be fired for many thousands of rounds without any maintenance at all and can be kept running reliably for indefinite periods with only very basic cleaning.

Is this the recommended, field manual approach to maintaining an AK? Heck no, but that was never the point. The point was that in some SHTF situations, where proper maintenance may be difficult or even impossible for some period of time, it's a nice advantage to have a weapon that can get by with only very basic care.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally Posted by tsmo1066

There's a world of difference between "field manual" and "field EXPEDIENT".

I didn't say that a shoestring and some oil was the RECOMMENDED way to clean an AK, nor did I state anything about field manuals. You must surely know the difference between a "by the book" weapon cleaning and the minimum, field-expedient maintenance necessary to keep a weapon running.

The AR requires far more minimal maintenance than the AK to keep it running, and even the best AR will start malfunctioning in short order if not cleaned thoroughly after a couple of sessions of heavy use. The same is not true for the AK. An AK can often be fired for many thousands of rounds without any maintenance at all and can be kept running reliably for indefinite periods with only very basic cleaning.

Is this the recommended, field manual approach to maintaining an AK? Heck no, but that was never the point. The point was that in some SHTF situations, where proper maintenance may be difficult or even impossible for some period of time, it's a nice advantage to have a weapon that can get by with only very basic care.

The AK does take far less maintance as you said. But the AR does not need to be cleaned as much as people think. What it needs is to stay lubed. Pat Rogers has a gun with more than 26000 rounds through it before he cleaned it. It kept running until that point. All he did was lube the gun frequently.
Pat

[CBennett]

If I have plenty of ammo on hand AK if I didnt and would need to get some AR.

[javelinadave]

Originally Posted by CBennett

If I have plenty of ammo on hand AK if I didnt and would need to get some AR.

Huh??

[CBennett]

Originally Posted by javelinadave

Huh??

whats so hard...IMO the AK is the more reliable weapon with less cleaning will go longer be more reliable in combat situations/environments. that said I dont plan on having to go anywhere I plan to stay where im at if SHTF Id have a good supply of ammo for the AK on hand so thats what id pick...if I was in a big city and may have to move go somewhere if SHTF I may not be able to lug several thousand rounds of AK ammo with me and I may have to find more else where...what is it gonna be easier for me to find on the move to a safer place AR or AK ammo...answer is .223 ammo...I saw exactly 1 box of 7.26X39 on the shelf at walmart today and several HUNDRED boxes of .223..that said I can get 1080 rounds for my AK74 for $150..Id have a few of those on hand...

[javelinadave]

Originally Posted by CBennett

whats so hard...IMO the AK is the more reliable weapon with less cleaning will go longer be more reliable in combat situations/environments. that said I dont plan on having to go anywhere I plan to stay where im at if SHTF Id have a good supply of ammo for the AK on hand so thats what id pick...if I was in a big city and may have to move go somewhere if SHTF I may not be able to lug several thousand rounds of AK ammo with me and I may have to find more else where...what is it gonna be easier for me to find on the move to a safer place AR or AK ammo...answer is .223 ammo...I saw exactly 1 box of 7.26X39 on the shelf at walmart today and several HUNDRED boxes of .223..that said I can get 1080 rounds for my AK74 for $150..Id have a few of those on hand...

I guess I didn't understand your last two posts due to the lack of punctuation and the lack of capital letters at the start of a new sentence.

[digilo]

Originally Posted by javelinadave

I guess I didn't understand your last two posts due to the lack of punctuation and the lack of capital letters at the start of a new sentence.

I didn't have any problem reading and understanding what he wrote.

[RWBlue]

Novocaine, you have a point.

Weight is dependent on which setup we are using.
An AR can be very light OR it can be very heavy.
An AKM will start out heavier than than an M4 and can be made heavier.


As of today, I have rails to mount on my AK.
Now I can mount some better sights. Decisions, decision, RD or scope.

[CBennett]

Originally Posted by javelinadave

I guess I didn't understand your last two posts due to the lack of punctuation and the lack of capital letters at the start of a new sentence.

Im not concerned if you understood it or not.

[Novocaine]

Originally Posted by tsmo1066

The AR requires far more minimal maintenance than the AK to keep it running, and even the best AR will start malfunctioning in short order if not cleaned thoroughly after a couple of sessions of heavy use...

The point was that in some SHTF situations, where proper maintenance may be difficult or even impossible for some period of time, it's a nice advantage to have a weapon that can get by with only very basic care.

I agree that AR will respond sooner to neglect than AK. However I wouldn’t go as far as to say "in short order". I have put about 1K trouble-free rounds through one of my ARs over the course of a year (you know, couple of mags here and there) without cleaning.

1K may seem like a laughable number to some optimistic types but it's probably three times as much ammo as I would care to take along in most any type of SHTF. If I'll find a way and time to dispense a thousand rounds of ammo through a semiautomatic rifle I'll find a way and time to clean it. Just as I would find a way to brush my teeth.

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

…the AR does not need to be cleaned as much as people think…

This.

[javelinadave]

Originally Posted by CBennett

Im not concerned if you understood it or not.

A+ for spelling and punctuation!
Congrats and best wishes!
I'm concern about you and every member of this fine board. I wish everybody well and hope they understand what I post
Why all the hostility CBennett? Let a little sunshine into your life!

[Beware Owner]

I don't mean to offend anybody, but....

I do have trouble understanding what people write myself. I try my hardest to make something of it, but it can be difficult sometimes.

[Jmzzl]

An AK is like a pickup truck. An AR is like a pickup truck with chrome wheels. Both get the job done, but you can't go muddin' in both.

I thought of that in the shower 5 minutes ago. I thought it was a good comparison.

EDIT: I thought it was so good, I made it my new signature ;]

[Quigley]

Originally Posted by Jmzzl

An AK is like a pickup truck. An AR is like a pickup truck with chrome wheels. Both get the job done, but you can't go muddin' in both.

I thought of that in the shower 5 minutes ago. I thought it was a good comparison.

EDIT: I thought it was so good, I made it my new signature ;]

So the pick up with the chromed wheels is better for mudding? I mean they will clean easier. Not to mention that the chrome wheels don't effect the functionality or reliability of the pick up. As a matter of fact the only thing that the chrome wheels do is change the appearance.

[Jmzzl]

Lol, you took it out of context. Who wants to take a darn good looking truck through the mud when they can take a beater truck through it?

[Quigley]

Originally Posted by Jmzzl

Lol, you took it out of context. Who wants to take a darn good looking truck through the mud when they can take a beater truck through it?

Gotcha, But I think my AK looks pretty freaking good and so does my AR. I just know which one would perform better in the mud

[DWS22]

AK for me.............

[Another Miller]

Ak..it makes bigger holes in things.

[frank_drebin]

I would take an AK over an AR any day of the week. However, when I looked at AKs it was the height of the Obamamania price craze and I just couldn't bring myself to paying those prices. I ended up getting an SKS and a Tapco T6 and actually prefer it to the AK. I like the longer barrel with the Tapco stock. The gun is tighter than any AK I've held and shoots as accurate as my M44.

[jack76590]

In a SHTF situation I like the fact my AK stock folds. I can then put the AK in a large duffle bag. AR has telescoping stocks, but they do not result in as compact a package as AK with folding stock.