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Old 02-16-2010, 10:46   #21
David Armstrong
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What problems did these people you observed typically have on the pistol gripped stocks? Would these same people prefer a conventional stock rifle like an M1A to a pistol gripped stocked AR10?
You shoot a rifle and a shotgun differently. Thus what works well for a rifle is not automatically what works well for a shotgun. And it wasn't that they had problems because of a pistol grip, it was that they performed better with a standard stock for most exercises.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:49   #22
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When I was in the Corps, and in an MOS that used shotguns every day, none of our M590s or M870s had a pistol grip.
And you still find that to be true with the occupation that uses the fighting shotgun the most these days, law enforcement. As a percentage, very few patrol shotguns will have a pistol grip.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:53   #23
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Every one of our patrol shotguns has a pistol grip. Wouldn't go back. Between additional cost and fitting in traditional cruiser mounts, I can see why some would forego the functionality.
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:49   #24
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hardly anyone uses a SG in LE. Maybe for lesslethal rounds, but a SG is almost stupid for anything policing wise. Just my internet opinion.
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Old 02-16-2010, 19:52   #25
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Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
You shoot a rifle and a shotgun differently. Thus what works well for a rifle is not automatically what works well for a shotgun. And it wasn't that they had problems because of a pistol grip, it was that they performed better with a standard stock for most exercises.
I have to wonder if that was because they just weren't used to the pistol grip or if the exercises had not been updated for the pistol grip.
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Old 02-16-2010, 22:57   #26
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:30   #27
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To answer some of tarmac's questions, no spacers or washers should be needed as there's a model made specifically for the 870.
It's not harder to install the shorter LOP version, the IV-S, if you get that one.

I tried these pistol-gripped stocks but returned to a standard stock (shortened for my build & preference). When shooting the shotgun for several hours, I started to develop tendonitis. I found my wrist position with a standard stock put my wrist in a stronger position, especially when reloading. I suppose most people won't be shooting the shotgun this much.

I'm in one of those police departments where the shotgun is still the primary long gun issued/fielded.

Advice: Get the stock. Give it a try. Don't get rid of the old straight stock just in case you don't like the pistol-gripped stock. Report back to us and tell us if/how you like it.
Good advice, thank you
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:50   #28
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I like both pistol grip stocks and standard stocks. I own both a pistol gripped 930 SPX (semiauto) and a standard stock 590 (pump).
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Old 02-17-2010, 14:09   #29
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hardly anyone uses a SG in LE. Maybe for lesslethal rounds, but a SG is almost stupid for anything policing wise. Just my internet opinion.
your internet opinion is in conflict with the facts. The shotgun is still a popular weapon among LEOs, and not just for less lethal ammo. I'd even be willing to bet a fair amount that there are more shotguns in LE cars than rifles these days, but I don't know how we would verify it.
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Old 02-17-2010, 14:15   #30
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I have to wonder if that was because they just weren't used to the pistol grip or if the exercises had not been updated for the pistol grip.
Umm, why would you "update" an exercise for the pistol grip? Exercises test capability to use the firearm, and the different types of equipment get to see how they compare to other pieces of equipment. And when one is conducting a class there is a basic consideration that there is a somewhat simiklar level of training based on the type of instruction. I can't see any reason to think that shooters with regular stocks would be more used to them than those with pistol grip stocks. If thta is true, though, it would seem to suggest one should stay with the regular stock.
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Old 02-17-2010, 16:40   #31
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Originally Posted by dualG22s View Post
hardly anyone uses a SG in LE. Maybe for lesslethal rounds, but a SG is almost stupid for anything policing wise. Just my internet opinion.
Count me in the hardly anyone department.

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Old 02-17-2010, 21:50   #32
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Umm, why would you "update" an exercise for the pistol grip? Exercises test capability to use the firearm, and the different types of equipment get to see how they compare to other pieces of equipment. And when one is conducting a class there is a basic consideration that there is a somewhat simiklar level of training based on the type of instruction. I can't see any reason to think that shooters with regular stocks would be more used to them than those with pistol grip stocks. If thta is true, though, it would seem to suggest one should stay with the regular stock.
I do not mean to nitpick here but I consider an exercise to be a practice drill in the use of a fiream. Qualifications are where one is tested. To put it another way an exercise is what you do develop skill and qualification is where you demonstrate it. If you haven't performed an exercise with a piece of equipment before you may not do well at first but that doesn't mean you give up.

Back to the subject at hand certain things (such as retention) are done differently. If one tries to apply conventional stock techniques to a pistol grip full stock then of course the conventional stock will seem superior.

I do not think people should let good stand in the way of better.
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:44   #33
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I do not mean to nitpick here but I consider an exercise to be a practice drill in the use of a fiream. Qualifications are where one is tested.
Also not to nitpick, but having been in the training business for over 30 years one can (and often should) test a variety of issues while doing exercises. Qualification simply looks at if a certain minimum standard has been met.
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Back to the subject at hand certain things (such as retention) are done differently. If one tries to apply conventional stock techniques to a pistol grip full stock then of course the conventional stock will seem superior.
And if one is using training to figure out what works best irregardless of technique then one can identify strengths and weaknesses of various designs and what is superior will come out on top.
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I do not think people should let good stand in the way of better.
Agreed. Of course new does not mean better. What is better for a highly trained individual wearing heavy body armor and using a 14" barrelled gun won't necessarily be better for the typically low-trained person with a 20" tube gun and not wearing armor.
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Old 02-18-2010, 19:57   #34
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[QUOTE=David Armstrong;14782833]
And if one is using training to figure out what works best irregardless of technique then one can identify strengths and weaknesses of various designs and what is superior will come out on top.

/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Sometimes what is superior is so dramatically superior it is instantly appearant. Other times it takes a while to see the benefits.
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Old 02-19-2010, 08:11   #35
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Speedfeed IV-S is a great stock and does not need any extra spacers or anything to put on. But also that a look at the Mesa Tactical LEO M-4 style stock, I've recently switched to one and love it. I leave the stock closed, but if you want a longer LOP just open it up more. You'll have six more postions to make it longer.
hope this helps.
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Old 02-19-2010, 19:49   #36
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Agreed.
Sometimes what is superior is so dramatically superior it is instantly appearant. Other times it takes a while to see the benefits.
Yes. And often what is touted as superior over time turns out to just be new and different, without any of the supposed superiority outside of a fairly narrow set of parameters.
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Old 02-20-2010, 07:04   #37
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And sometimes wise folks sound very much like they're getting paid by the word. Woo woo.
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Old 02-22-2010, 21:08   #38
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i cant speak for all LE, just my department. My post before was probably too short. All of our squad cars have shotties for shooting hurt deer. We have rifles to shoot people. I don't ever see anyone frm swat ever bring a shotgun either.
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Old 02-23-2010, 21:54   #39
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interesting thread; it gives credence to the phrase "different strokes for different folks." it can be argued that a shooter's "perceived" confidence in his/her weapon makes him/her more proficient with that weapon than a superior weapon that he/she has no confidence in....

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