[23 David]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_LTexIQFAQ
He sounds like he is from NYC.

[Gallium]

I believe that is Matthew Tempkin, a former NYC court officer.

I've been wrong before, so don't swear me in on it.


'Drew

[Sam Spade]

Well, yeah, what with the big green "Featuring Matthew Temkin" on the screen. Don't worry Drew, we'll make a dick out of you yet. ("Detective", for you gutterminded readers.)



Yes, he worked in the NY Courts. I know him a bit, attended one of his seminars through IALEFI, yada yada.

He used to post here (as in T&T) until the populace ran him out. You may still be able to find his old stuff, dunno.

Anything specific you're wondering about?

[Gallium]

Originally Posted by Sam Spade

Well, yeah, what with the big green "Featuring Matthew Temkin" on the screen. Don't worry Drew, we'll make a dick out of you yet. ("Detective", for you gutterminded readers.)


...

You'll have to brain-cleanse law school outta me 1st! (never been there, except as a babysitter ).

I said "it appears" because without positive fingerprinting or DNA, it could possibly be some impostor intent on impugning the good name of the real Matt Temkin.



'Drew
Clueless.

[23 David]

Originally Posted by Sam Spade

Well, yeah, what with the big green "Featuring Matthew Temkin" on the screen. Don't worry Drew, we'll make a dick out of you yet. ("Detective", for you gutterminded readers.)



Yes, he worked in the NY Courts. I know him a bit, attended one of his seminars through IALEFI, yada yada.

He used to post here (as in T&T) until the populace ran him out. You may still be able to find his old stuff, dunno.

Anything specific you're wondering about?

I was just curious if he was a fellow NYer.
You don't see many of us on Youtube.

[Plastic4Toys]

I read some where that 7677 is also in this video?

Is it true that what I am hearing in the training community that Tempkin and 7677 are the ones which taught Roger Phillips and Saurez pointshooting?

[Sam Spade]

Originally Posted by Plastic4Toys

Is it true that what I am hearing in the training community that Tempkin and 7677 are the ones which taught Roger Phillips and Saurez pointshooting?

You left out Robin Brown. BTW, Brown posts here as "brownie", and 7677 is here as well.

As a guy who (a) has no financial or historical stake in the fight and (b) knows all parties, having taken training from 4 of the 5, I'll comment. (If you're wondering, I've watched 7677 teach, but don't count that as "taking training" from him.)

Matt's focus has been historic. He studied what his father was taught as a WWII Ranger (in combatives as well) and revived it, going back to the sources. With minor changes, it's F/S. He was one of the most vocal proponents of "point" shooting just a few years ago, and brought quite a bit of publicity to it. "Shooting to Live" contains the basics of what Matt presents, though there are some updates.

Brownie was a student of Lucky McDaniels. The Quick Kill approach stems from there. McDaniels also drew from the earlier guys, especially Applegate. AFAIK, McDaniels never put anything in publication that dealt with his pistol work, so it's kinda like the oral transmission of very traditional martial arts. Applegate, on the other hand, has a lot of detail in "Kill or Get Killed". The rifle portions of things made it into Army doctrine while we were fighting in Viet Nam.

7677 draws from both QK and F/S, but comes to the table with Modern Technique involved. He "discovered" and quantified that point shooting/aimed shooting wasn't an either/or proposition. Instead there's a continuum, a gradual merge from pure body index to hard focus on the front sight. With his LE background, he merged pieces into something that Modern Technique shooters (and administrators) understood.

Those three worthies came together for collaboration and presented several seminars. One of those seminars was "Sightless in Tucson"; Roger Phillips was there as a student. Roger had an epiphany, and he took the material and ran with it. He studied the snot out of everybody above (and others such as Paul Castle (CAR)), shot a boxcar full of ammunition and synthesized "Point Shooting Progressions". What Roger (IMO) introduced to the mix was information gleaned from sports physiologists and performance studies; he's treating a lot of this as a physical/athletic endeavor.


That's it in a nutshell. I apologize to Matt, Robin, 7677 and Roger for anything that I got wrong or nuances that I've missed. They've all been decent to me, and are all fine instructors in their own right. The personality clashes among the various Type A+ personalities are sad, but probably predictable.

[Plastic4Toys]

Sam,
Thanks for the clarification and you are correct that I forgot to mention Brownie and my apologies to him.

I have only been following the point shooting debates for the last few months and after reading you're post I did some research on this subject.

What I found is quite interesting:

1) Rodger Phillip's style and concepts are identical to 7677. Only Rodger is overly wordy and tends to take two paragraphs to say the same thing that 7677 or Tempkin says in two sentences on the forums.

2) Brownie, 7677, and Tempkin were trained by a CAR certified master instructor in 2004. I can't find anything regarding Rodger's training in CAR?

3) Rodger was a Quick Kill instructor for about six months.

4) Rodger left his position as a quick kill instructor and had a rather lengthy and bloody battle with Brownie on several shooting forums.

5)Tempkin taught with Brownie and 7677 in Arizona and then appeared to leave group for reason unknown and went over to Suarez just after Rodger's arrival in to this group. Then Rodger leaves this group and goes over to Saurez. Shortly after Rodgers move over to SI Tempkin leaves SI and goes back to training with Brownie.

6) I find this thread http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...5#post11401165 but I can not find any classes where 7677 and Rodger worked together.

7) As far as I can determine Tempkin and 7677 have offered courses together the entire time regardless of who is fighting with who.

8) Tempkin left SI and shortly after Tempkin and 7677 were banned from there which leads me to wonder who the real type "A" with the personality problem really is?

[Sam Spade]

Yeah, you seem to have most of the drama covered. I don't know how long you've been around the shooting world, but it's pretty typical; I know of examples dating back decades. Shows up in knives and unarmed training circles, too.

Macht nichts. My interest is in keeping good guys alive. Training from any of them will help you do that, and who you mesh with best is a personality issue.

[KinderGlocken]

Man that accent is harsh on my ears!

[JohnKSa]

So, are advancing on multiple attackers and shooting at contact distances with an extended arm instead of from a retention position commonly taught techniques?

[Plastic4Toys]

Thank you Sam you have been a big help but to the uninformed new shooter it sure does appear that Rodger is ground zero when it comes to the drama between Tempkin, Brownie, and Suarez.

[brownie]

Originally Posted by Sam Spade

You left out Robin Brown. BTW, Brown posts here as "brownie", and 7677 is here as well.

As a guy who (a) has no financial or historical stake in the fight and (b) knows all parties, having taken training from 4 of the 5, I'll comment. (If you're wondering, I've watched 7677 teach, but don't count that as "taking training" from him.)

Matt's focus has been historic. He studied what his father was taught as a WWII Ranger (in combatives as well) and revived it, going back to the sources. With minor changes, it's F/S. He was one of the most vocal proponents of "point" shooting just a few years ago, and brought quite a bit of publicity to it. "Shooting to Live" contains the basics of what Matt presents, though there are some updates.

Brownie was a student of Lucky McDaniels. The Quick Kill approach stems from there. McDaniels also drew from the earlier guys, especially Applegate. AFAIK, McDaniels never put anything in publication that dealt with his pistol work, so it's kinda like the oral transmission of very traditional martial arts. Applegate, on the other hand, has a lot of detail in "Kill or Get Killed". The rifle portions of things made it into Army doctrine while we were fighting in Viet Nam.

7677 draws from both QK and F/S, but comes to the table with Modern Technique involved. He "discovered" and quantified that point shooting/aimed shooting wasn't an either/or proposition. Instead there's a continuum, a gradual merge from pure body index to hard focus on the front sight. With his LE background, he merged pieces into something that Modern Technique shooters (and administrators) understood.

Those three worthies came together for collaboration and presented several seminars. One of those seminars was "Sightless in Tucson"; Roger Phillips was there as a student. Roger had an epiphany, and he took the material and ran with it. He studied the snot out of everybody above (and others such as Paul Castle (CAR)), shot a boxcar full of ammunition and synthesized "Point Shooting Progressions". What Roger (IMO) introduced to the mix was information gleaned from sports physiologists and performance studies; he's treating a lot of this as a physical/athletic endeavor.


That's it in a nutshell. I apologize to Matt, Robin, 7677 and Roger for anything that I got wrong or nuances that I've missed. They've all been decent to me, and are all fine instructors in their own right. The personality clashes among the various Type A+ personalities are sad, but probably predictable.

Seems to me you covered the short version pretty well Sam.

Hope all is well in your world sir, tell the Mrs. I said hello for me

Brownie

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

So, are advancing on multiple attackers and shooting at contact distances with an extended arm instead of from a retention position commonly taught techniques?

Not necessarily commonly taught, but they are doctrine in some schools and philosophies, especially some of the more group-combat oriented. Some of the Israeli instructors come to mind.

[BamaTrooper]

Originally Posted by 23 David

I was just curious if he was a fellow NYer.
You don't see many of us on Youtube.

That's because y'all have yousetube.

[23 David]

Originally Posted by BamaTrooper

That's because y'all have yousetube.

Ya got dat right..

[Bandolero]

Originally Posted by Plastic4Toys

Is it true that what I am hearing in the training community that Tempkin and 7677 are the ones which taught Roger Phillips and Saurez pointshooting?

This would have had to be before early 2003 because that was when I took my first course with Suarez and we were point shooting and moving off the X back then.

[brownie]

Originally Posted by Bandolero

This would have had to be before early 2003 because that was when I took my first course with Suarez and we were point shooting and moving off the X back then.

Incorrect there Bandolero, you WERE NOT point shooting with Suarez prior to 2003 as Suarez didn't even believe threat focused skills/point shooting was viable until 7677 and Matt took their skills to Tenn for his first WTS get together in Jan 2005 and proved to him that those skills were viable and easily trained into students.

Historical record there sir, so no matter what you THOUGHT you were learning, you weren't getting the real skills Mr. Phillips was imparted by Matt, 7677 and myself until October 2005 at our first Sightless in Tucson.

Lets keep the record straight before others think Suarez had any semblence of an idea about point shooting skills until 7677 and Matt proved it to him in Jan 2005, and then tried to ramp up quickly himself to not be left behind once he realized he was so far behind the curve on this subject as to be living in the dark ages.

Brownie

[Plastic4Toys]

Originally Posted by Bandolero

This would have had to be before early 2003 because that was when I took my first course with Suarez and we were point shooting and moving off the X back then.

Where did you say you took that class?

I didn't know they allow prisoners to teach shooting classes at the Los Angeles County Jail? And from the information I have gathered Suarez did not even start his forum until September 2003 and how about that book Suarez wrote and was released about the same time which had a chapter about how point shooting is dangerous.

[smokin762]

This is a great thread. I am glad I clicked on to it.

It would be cool to take one of these classes.

[Sam Spade]

Originally Posted by Plastic4Toys

And from the information I have gathered Suarez did not even start his forum until September 2003

Gabe took his plea in September 2001; he would have been out about April '02. He was teaching before his forum came on-line.

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by Bandolero

This would have had to be before early 2003 because that was when I took my first course with Suarez and we were point shooting and moving off the X back then.

Gabe's earlier objections to and arguments against point-shooting are well established on many forums over the years. Like many others who verbally assaulted a small core of point-shooting supporters, he came late to the ball, but I suppose it is better late than never.

[brownie]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Gabe's earlier objections to and arguuments against point-shooting are well established on many forums over the years. Like many others who verbally assaulted a small core of point-shooting supporters, he came late to the ball, but I suppose it is better late than never.

My main problem with him is he now purports to be the premier point shooting dictate in the country. That's hardly going to be true when you're a johnny come lately and there's people out there like a few on this forum who have decades behind the skills themselves.

The advertising is pure marketing hype but those who don't know the history will drink the cool aid hype. It's a disservice to those students who believe they are getting the best training available. He hasn't even trained under a recognized instructor with 10 or more years on the skills himself.

BTW--anybody see the post that disappeared over on the DC forum about his premier point shooting instructor Roger Phillips negligent discharge that resulted in another person being physically injured in California? Wonder if their insurance carrier is aware of this and how he's allowed to carry insurance?

[Glock!9]

I have had a CC permit for 12 years now and have never seen this type of training. I have always felt advancing was a good approach but I do not think I fully grasp the concept of Point shooting.

[PhoneCop]

Originally Posted by Glock!9

I have had a CC permit for 12 years now and have never seen this type of training. I have always felt advancing was a good approach but I do not think I fully grasp the concept of Point shooting.

Think of it as a tool to have in your tool box. There have been some good threads on the discussion. They get heated quickly though.

In summary- under certain conditions you may have neither the time nor the distance to use your sights. That's when unsighted/point/index shooting shows it's greatest value.

When circumstances allow, two-handed sighted fire is prolly best.

Movement is also dictated by circumstances. You may not need to move, you may need to haul ass. You may need to move in any of the 360 degrees and incorporate rolls and zig-zags... j/k... well maybe not completely, never rule anythig out.