Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-01-2010, 18:22   #1
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Deaf Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Texican in Texas (where else?)
Posts: 9,408
Weapons familiarity as it relates to ability

Guys,

I was practicing yesterday out on the open range doing all kinds of fun hip shooting and I noticed I shot better than the other people there, yet I was firing from the belt level at speed with me drawing, concealed, and quite a bit of it was at 15 yards. So it occurred to me this.

I know we all talk about point shooting .vs. sighted fire, or 'MT', front sight focus, 'flash sight picture', or stances like Weaver, Chapman, Isosceles, Reverse Weaver, or thumbs up .vs. thumbs down on gripping, etc... But in reality it seems to me the technique, or even the weapon, is not as important as how familiar you are with it.

Not talking about just being able to clean it, or shoot it abit on a square range, but real familiarity. The familiarity to use the weapon at a moment’s notice without thinking.

I suspect some of the low hit rates on the street have to do with this more than anything else no matter what technique is taught or weapon used.

Cause you see, I know my hip shooting is an inferior technique, especially at 15 yards, but all the other people there were casual shooters and really they were not truly familiar with their guns.

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand

Last edited by Deaf Smith; 03-01-2010 at 18:23..
Deaf Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 09:40   #2
Blaster
Hunc tu caveto
 
Blaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 3,176
I think it is not so much familiarity with the weapon as it is familiarity with how to use the weapon. Deaf, I agree with what you are saying. I am just trying to further define the idiosyncrasies that enable one to do what you did.

Consider the guy with marginal trigger control (the average shooter). Now ask him to shoot one handed from the hip. The support hand that could have mitigated some of induced poor trigger control is absent. What is the result? It is not going to be pretty, certainly not effective fire. This guy probably has some anticipation going on, flinching too.

Have you ever spent some time talking to or watching shooters at the range? Many, even some of the more experienced folks will say that they wait to fire when the line is quiet. The guys who have been through formal tactical training and have shot timed drills in a line seem impervious to adjacent gunfire. Again this is the familiarity factor kicking in. Familiarity with the process and the ability to concentrate on the task on hand while blocking out surrounding distractions.

Now you take a guy who has no issues with trigger control. Someone who knows how to present a weapon. Lets say a Modern Technique guy who has always done it by the sights and ask him to Point Shoot.

This is where the familiarity kicks in. This guy knows what to do and how to do it. Smooth trigger press from the Weaver or from the hip is still smooth. Indexing the gun from the Weaver stance has become automatic, the sights are used only to verify alignment. Now this guy just has to adapt to aligning the gun from a new location. Yes without the sights in this case but since this guy has a firm grasp on all the basics it is not a difficult task to adapt to.

I respectfully submit that it is familiarity with the process as much as with the gun. They go hand in hand.
__________________
Up, Look, Press.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

Last edited by Blaster; 03-02-2010 at 09:44..
Blaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2010, 19:00   #3
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 21,733
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaster View Post
I think it is not so much familiarity with the weapon as it is familiarity with how to use the weapon. Deaf, I agree with what you are saying. I am just trying to further define the idiosyncrasies that enable one to do what you did.

Consider the guy with marginal trigger control (the average shooter). Now ask him to shoot one handed from the hip. The support hand that could have mitigated some of induced poor trigger control is absent. What is the result? It is not going to be pretty, certainly not effective fire. This guy probably has some anticipation going on, flinching too.

Have you ever spent some time talking to or watching shooters at the range? Many, even some of the more experienced folks will say that they wait to fire when the line is quiet. The guys who have been through formal tactical training and have shot timed drills in a line seem impervious to adjacent gunfire. Again this is the familiarity factor kicking in. Familiarity with the process and the ability to concentrate on the task on hand while blocking out surrounding distractions.

Now you take a guy who has no issues with trigger control. Someone who knows how to present a weapon. Lets say a Modern Technique guy who has always done it by the sights and ask him to Point Shoot.

This is where the familiarity kicks in. This guy knows what to do and how to do it. Smooth trigger press from the Weaver or from the hip is still smooth. Indexing the gun from the Weaver stance has become automatic, the sights are used only to verify alignment. Now this guy just has to adapt to aligning the gun from a new location. Yes without the sights in this case but since this guy has a firm grasp on all the basics it is not a difficult task to adapt to.

I respectfully submit that it is familiarity with the process as much as with the gun. They go hand in hand.
Good post! It's an issue I have w/ many shooters, including LEO. Just because you carry a gun everyday doesn't give you automatic skill w/ that gun. I see it all the time, civ & LEO shooters. If you only shoot 3-4x a year & never practice even dry firing in bewtween, you are gloing to get rally rusty really quick.
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".
fredj338 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 11:39   #4
English
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 5,572
Sorry Deaf, I don't think your hypothesis stands up. One of the best and fastest sights shooters I know, and he really is fast, did not manage to hit a large upper body target at 5 yards with a 5 shot string more than two or three times in three attempts. That is, two or three hits in 15 shots. He was so embarrassed at what he expected to be easy that he did not try again. He is very familiar with his handgun and it did not help. On the other hand, less accomplished shooters who were humble enough to take a little instruction were able to make 5 hits in under three seconds from waist level and one was well under half that.

I think you learn to point shoot by point shooting. If you come to it without preconceptions you learn faster. If you have a little competent instruction you learn faster still.

Your case is exceptional. You have been denying the value of point shooting for years, it seems like decades, except in two instances. One is retention shooting and the other is shooting in poor light where it is not possible to see the sights. In the latter case you have maintained that all that is necessary is to present the pistol as though you could see the sights and the shot would be close enough. Point shooting is far more varied and versatile than that, but the thing that makes you exceptional is that you train extensively and frequently and in that training you have practised those two forms very thoroughly. In effect you have put yourself through the first lessons of a point shooting course and practised and practised again. You are not just dedicated but highly talented. In the course of this regular practice you have developed much of the proprioceptive skill you need for a much wider point shooting skill set. It is not the least surprising that you discovered that you were better than others. I would be surprised if that had not been the case.

English
English is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2010, 01:07   #5
ronin.45
Senior Member
 
ronin.45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NE OHIO
Posts: 8,903
Competition shooters are as familiar with thier firearms as anyone can be. If you took 100 competition shooters to a range and had them hip shoot at a target 15yards away, 90 of them probably wouldn't hit the target. I think hip shooting is much more about familiarity with the technique than with the weapon. Knowing the weapon would make it much easier but most people have never tried to shoot from the hip and it is nothing like any other kind of shooting. You have obviously practiced it extensively to group well at fifteen yards. That is really extreme range for hip shooting.
__________________
As I go through life I keep coming to the same conclusion, people are generally stupid.
ronin.45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2010, 10:00   #6
sapper1911
Member
 
sapper1911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 57
Great post deaf. here's my humble opinion. I would geuss that it is a combination with familiarity with the firearm, familiarity with the technique, overall confidence in ones ability, and finally an open mind. I would also guess that in English's experince that the shooter may be either too confindent / cocky that he got crushed on the first miss (something I have experinced) or the shooter had already decided that this technique is not as good as thier's and therefor expect to miss (somethig else I've experinced).
sapper1911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2010, 20:05   #7
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Deaf Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Texican in Texas (where else?)
Posts: 9,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
Sorry Deaf, I don't think your hypothesis stands up. One of the best and fastest sights shooters I know, and he really is fast, did not manage to hit a large upper body target at 5 yards with a 5 shot string more than two or three times in three attempts. That is, two or three hits in 15 shots. He was so embarrassed at what he expected to be easy that he did not try again. He is very familiar with his handgun and it did not help. On the other hand, less accomplished shooters who were humble enough to take a little instruction were able to make 5 hits in under three seconds from waist level and one was well under half that.
English,

Just because one has a bad day does not invalidate the hypothesis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
I think you learn to point shoot by point shooting. If you come to it without preconceptions you learn faster. If you have a little competent instruction you learn faster still.

Your case is exceptional. You have been denying the value of point shooting for years, it seems like decades, except in two instances. One is retention shooting and the other is shooting in poor light where it is not possible to see the sights.
Actually English, I have always maintained that the basic core is a form of sighted fire and retention shooting.

And once this is mastered then if you want to learn point shooting, or long range shooting, or aerial shooting, etc.. Then I encourage it. It's just not the basic core one learns first and is not an absolute necessity.

I have been hip shooting ever since high school and reading Jeff Cooper (he wrote about Thell Reed and his hip shooting feats.) But it takes buckets of ammo to get that skill and you have to keep it up more than you would if you just used a form of sighted fire and retention shooting. And that is why I don't push it as a method for most people.

But a form of sighted fire and retention is alot easier to obtain and keep with, especially with a limited budget. And as Jeff Cooper wrote about his Modern Technique and presentation, "even if you cannot see the sights, you bring the weapon up AS IF YOU COULD SEE THE SIGHTS".

When you think about it, you do the same thing with point shooting as for the indexing to the target.

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand
Deaf Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2010, 20:09   #8
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Deaf Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Texican in Texas (where else?)
Posts: 9,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
Competition shooters are as familiar with thier firearms as anyone can be. If you took 100 competition shooters to a range and had them hip shoot at a target 15yards away, 90 of them probably wouldn't hit the target. I think hip shooting is much more about familiarity with the technique than with the weapon. Knowing the weapon would make it much easier but most people have never tried to shoot from the hip and it is nothing like any other kind of shooting. You have obviously practiced it extensively to group well at fifteen yards. That is really extreme range for hip shooting.

This is true. And you will find that if you change weapons that have a different grip to bore angle it will have an effect on where the rounds hit.

When I use Smtih revolvers I have to cock my wrist down abit, but with Colt revolvers I cock the hand up a bit to compensate. And Glocks are closer to the Smith revolvers than Colts (but not exactly.)

And since I pack Glocks more than anything, that's my main shooting platform now. I compete with the same type of weapons as I pack. Even down to the trigger pull.

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand
Deaf Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2010, 22:22   #9
PhoneCop
TeleDetective
 
PhoneCop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,972


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
Guys,

I was practicing yesterday out on the open range doing all kinds of fun hip shooting and I noticed I shot better than the other people there, yet I was firing from the belt level at speed with me drawing, concealed, and quite a bit of it was at 15 yards. So it occurred to me this.

I know we all talk about point shooting .vs. sighted fire, or 'MT', front sight focus, 'flash sight picture', or stances like Weaver, Chapman, Isosceles, Reverse Weaver, or thumbs up .vs. thumbs down on gripping, etc... But in reality it seems to me the technique, or even the weapon, is not as important as how familiar you are with it.

Not talking about just being able to clean it, or shoot it abit on a square range, but real familiarity. The familiarity to use the weapon at a moment’s notice without thinking.

I suspect some of the low hit rates on the street have to do with this more than anything else no matter what technique is taught or weapon used.

Cause you see, I know my hip shooting is an inferior technique, especially at 15 yards, but all the other people there were casual shooters and really they were not truly familiar with their guns.

Deaf
Could I summarize this as, "10,000s of rounds and hundreds of hours each year matter more than adherance to a doctrine?"
PhoneCop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2010, 22:29   #10
PhoneCop
TeleDetective
 
PhoneCop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,972


Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
Competition shooters are as familiar with thier firearms as anyone can be. If you took 100 competition shooters to a range and had them hip shoot at a target 15yards away, 90 of them probably wouldn't hit the target.
Please test this, there ought to be a USPSA match near enough for you to visit some Sat and Sun. I'm sure they'd also welcome you to shoot the match with them. Also consider putting both point shooting at 15 yards on a timer and sight fire on a timer. Let us know what washes out.
PhoneCop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2010, 00:23   #11
ronin.45
Senior Member
 
ronin.45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NE OHIO
Posts: 8,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoneCop View Post
Please test this, there ought to be a USPSA match near enough for you to visit some Sat and Sun. I'm sure they'd also welcome you to shoot the match with them. Also consider putting both point shooting at 15 yards on a timer and sight fire on a timer. Let us know what washes out.
I might have to set this up at one of our outdoor shoots. It will have to wait til the weather breaks though. We got like three feet of snow last month and it isn't gone yet.

Having tried hip shooting before I can guess the outcome. At fifteen yards anyone that does hit the paper will be more lucky than anything. We have done speed drills from the holster. We draw at the buzzer and put one round on target as fast as we can. Most of us only hit the paper a few times from the hip and that was only at 15'. We found it was almost as fast and much more accurate to point shoot with the gun almost at full extension with both hands. It slows you a little but having the second hand on the gun stabilizes it and helps get it centered on target. We were able to consistantly get a shot on target in .90-.95 seconds. If you practice hip shooting extensively you could probably shave a couple tenths of that, but it's not worth it to me.
__________________
As I go through life I keep coming to the same conclusion, people are generally stupid.
ronin.45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2010, 15:17   #12
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Deaf Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Texican in Texas (where else?)
Posts: 9,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoneCop View Post
Could I summarize this as, "10,000s of rounds and hundreds of hours each year matter more than adherance to a doctrine?"

Don't know about 10,000 rounds PhoneCop but mucho hours each year for several years for sure! I'd say maybe 2400 rounds a year, about 200 rounds a month and alot of repetition. will do it over the years.

Go to a dojo and see some of the better students in any martial art. You will find the ones that can take care of themselves practice alot, both inside and outside the dojo (or boxing club for that matter.) And a few of them can actually do those fancy trick kicks and get them to work on the street.

And yes, far less adherence to a doctrine that being able to actually do it, do it fast, and hit hard.

As Jeff Cooper once wrote, "a poor plan, executed so fast your opponent cannot intelligently counter it, is a good plan.".

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand
Deaf Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2010, 15:20   #13
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Deaf Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Texican in Texas (where else?)
Posts: 9,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
I might have to set this up at one of our outdoor shoots. It will have to wait til the weather breaks though. We got like three feet of snow last month and it isn't gone yet.

Having tried hip shooting before I can guess the outcome. At fifteen yards anyone that does hit the paper will be more lucky than anything. .
Ronin,

Thell Reed would hip shoot coffee cans at 75 YARDS. But Jeff Cooper said he did have to do a 'sighter shot' to get the round on target.

Deaf
__________________
“We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand
Deaf Smith is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 23:17.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,029
223 Members
806 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31