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Old 03-07-2010, 08:34   #1
Aceman
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Mossberg Tang safety w/ Pistol grip

And stock....I just don't get the deal with the people who hate the tang safety. Please explain this to me.

Here is my thought/approach/style whatever you want to call it.

My safety is an ADDITIONAL layer of safety/security. It IS NOT a primary safety, it is not something I depend on.

If I get the gun out - it has the safety ON. However - if I'm getting it out for business, the first thing I will do is take it OFF.

At this point, where I point the gun and where I put my finger is what it is all about.

Same thing at the range. when I'm ready to shoot - safety goes off and stays off. The gun is pointed down range when this occurs. When I'm done, the safety goes on.

With the exception of BG at night, when the action would be rack/safety off, I just don't get that it matters where the thing is. If I'm looking for BG's there is no safety on, if I even think there might be one, there is no safety on. Safety is going on at best when/if I set it down because I really believe everything is clear. and then I wouldn't care if it took two hands, my left foot, and a piece of rope to get it on.

What do you guys do / how do you approach things that the safety position is such a big deal?

Last edited by Aceman; 03-07-2010 at 08:35..
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Old 03-07-2010, 09:03   #2
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Old 03-07-2010, 10:05   #3
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Answered already. Missed it. ^^^^^

It doesn't seem like the best location with a pistol grip, but with some practice probably not a big deal. Can it be swiped with your index finger while gripping the shotgun? My 1201FP w/combo pistol grip/buttstock has a crossbolt safety that seems a little easier to get to.
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Old 03-07-2010, 10:15   #4
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I don't prefer a pistol-grip on a shotgun. But, that's irrelevant to this chat.

I do understand the complaints about a pg as relating to the safety on the Mossberg. However, believe its use can be over come based upon what one gets used to and trains with. Your hand will do some moving though. Cross bolts seem to be more user friendly with a pistol grip stock.

I will make mention of Aceman's tactic to disengage the safety and leave it off. I live with SOGs that won't allow such tactic; seen as a liability/safety issue. L-2 may be in this same boat.
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Last edited by Truckee; 03-10-2010 at 21:56.. Reason: typo
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Old 03-07-2010, 11:26   #5
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It all boils down to training...which unfortunately alot of people don't do.
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Old 03-07-2010, 12:04   #6
mixflip
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On the pistol grip issue...I am not a fan of pistol grip stocks on "pump" shotguns just for the fact that my left hand is on an eye level plain and my shooting hand is not on or near the same plain.

Why is this important to me? Well because on a pump shotgun I have to rack that pump, essentially bringing both hand closer together after each shot. When they are on different plains the gun tend to wobble and stray off target more than with a standard stock pump shotgun.

Its not a big deal to most but for now that is my philosophy and it works better for me when quickly shooting multiple targets. In a "time is life" situation a fraction of a second faster on my pump is important to me.

Now I love pistol grips on my "semi-auto" shotgun since my left hand isnt doing any work other than mere support since I dont have to rack it.



As for the tang/pistol grip issue? Why would I be going into a deadly situation with my safety on? The tang safety is fine. The only people who complain about it are the folks who think its uncomfortable to reach for it when just playing with their shotgun on a range. Comfort doesnt really play too much of a role in self defense in my opinion.

Ballistic vests arent and full duty belts comfortable. 40 & 45 cal & 00-buck arent comfortable rounds to shoot but they do their job of saving your life.

If your tang safety is on as you respond to a threat...you have training issues. Once the threat is down...then your safety goes on. Who cares if it breaks your master grip at this point? The threat is gone.

Rarely will a person be in a shootout at the ok coral and if you are, with a pump shotgun? Well your tang safety is the least of your problems.

Last edited by mixflip; 03-07-2010 at 12:06..
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Old 03-07-2010, 19:39   #7
hamster
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I just keep my Mossberg500 w/ Pistol grip & Adjustable stock "Cruiser Ready". Which in my case means Safety off, Magazine loaded. A quick press of the Slide release and rack a round when I'm ready for business.
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Old 03-10-2010, 19:37   #8
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It's just an all around bad design to use with a pistol grip. I have a 500A with Spec Ops. I keep the mag loaded, hammer down, safety off. I never use the safety. Then there is the issue with the mag release... Again, I never use it, but I would like a better, more ergonomic option.

I'm going to pick up a Maverick 88. I may want to keep my gun cocked and locked and the cross bolt safety on the trigger guard is as good as it gets IMO. Your finger lands there as you pick up the gun regardless of stock/grip type.

Sure you can train around the tang safety issue but why??? There are many other options out there. So far it's working fine for me but here's another thought.

Even if I don't use the safety I would like to make sure it is off if I need to use the gun. I don't want to feel around for that tang safety in the dark with a BG in my house.

Answers to all of these problems? Benelli Super Nova Tactical.
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Old 03-13-2010, 19:39   #9
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Put a Pachmayr Vindicator PG on it. Shaped as they are, thumbing the safety can easily be done without changing your grip.
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Old 03-14-2010, 18:46   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamster View Post
I just keep my Mossberg500 w/ Pistol grip & Adjustable stock "Cruiser Ready". Which in my case means Safety off, Magazine loaded. A quick press of the Slide release and rack a round when I'm ready for business.

I always thought cruiser ready was full mag - empty chamber - safety off - but trigger has been pulled (dry fired) so the slide will not lock forward and as a result you do not need to press the action button to rack a round into the chamber.

This is how I keep my 870 - in the safe (unlocked at night)

I do not need to mess with any small buttons - just rack and pull the trigger
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Old 03-14-2010, 19:49   #11
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Originally Posted by Truckee View Post
I will make mention of Aceman's tactic to disengage the safety and leave it off. I live with SOGs that won't allow such tactic; seen as a liability/safety issue. L-2 may be in this same boat.
Again - there is shooting time and not shooting time. You are saying that when it is a known "shooting time" the saftey is on? Please explain.
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:58   #12
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Then there is the issue with the mag release...
You have a mag release on a Mossberg 500?
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Old 03-15-2010, 14:42   #13
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Originally Posted by sns3guppy View Post
You have a mag release on a Mossberg 500?
Slide release? Whatever you call it... It is in a bad spot when you add a pistol grip. I love my 500a and I love my Spec Ops stock but the truth is they make a horrible couple.
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:03   #14
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Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
Again - there is shooting time and not shooting time. You are saying that when it is a known "shooting time" the saftey is on? Please explain.
Agreed. I'm saying, we are not allowed to position the safety off and go in search of. The safety is to remain engaged until just prior to discharging the weapon. For the "not shooting time," the safety is engaged.
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Last edited by Truckee; 03-16-2010 at 11:13..
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Old 03-17-2010, 21:26   #15
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Agreed. I'm saying, we are not allowed to position the safety off and go in search of. The safety is to remain engaged until just prior to discharging the weapon.
Wow. That is an unbelievably bad idea. Please tell me you are going "in search of" deer. In which case it's ok. But if the deer might shoot back...

Whose idea was this?
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:36   #16
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I agree, doing a building search for an active shooter or responding to a man with a gun call, with your safety "off" is a scary thought.
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:00   #17
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Wow. That is an unbelievably bad idea. Please tell me you are going "in search of" deer. In which case it's ok. But if the deer might shoot back...

Whose idea was this?
You find the idea of riding an engaged safety to be a bad idea? You seem to be suggesting that one should clear a building with the safety off.

Many departments and agencies, in fact most, teach clearing with the safety engaged, and the thumb or forefinger riding the safety.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:03   #18
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mixflip and sns3guppy
^^^^Aceman, what they said.

Long guns are susceptible to being snatched or bumped, and are often handed off during confrontations. Being "at large" amongst a flood of others with the safety disengaged is not prudent. Also, there shall be no negligent discharges. These may or may not be my opinions. I'm simply stating the train of thought.

YMMV Aceman but, I have to live within a guideline... most of which I agree with or see the light of. And as for my 0.02 on this issue, I concur... safety until ready to fire.
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Last edited by Truckee; 03-18-2010 at 08:39.. Reason: typo
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:31   #19
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I can understand the "snatch or bumped" theory and the response to it. Depts are often flooded with risk managers worried about perception. I get it that its policy.

My question is to the policy? We are taught to keep our fingers indexed and "off the trigger" until ready to fire. There should be no unintentional discharges if you keep your finger off the trigger. Are we going in to make an arrest or going in to stop a threat?

Walking into a building and conducting a search for an active shooter is essentially walking into an ambush. Why would I want to walk into an ambush with my safety off? The person hiding with a gun (which is probably not on safe) almost always knows you are coming if he is hiding and listening.

If my long gun is shouldered and my muzzle is pointed down range...I would prefer my safety to be off and ready to fire in a "time is life" situation. Why not do this...If you are going to hand off your long gun, swipe "on" the safety? If your gun is snatched where is your #2 guy in your search team? I am of course assuming nobody searches a building alone?

I understand the policy but I dont agree with it. I am advocating complete compliance with policy btw. Some policies dont allow sworn officers to carry off duty and I dont agree with that either.

Any military folks here fresh from Iraq or Afghanistan? Whats your opinion on searching with your safety on? Is that what they teach in M.O.U.T. training?

Last edited by mixflip; 03-18-2010 at 10:38..
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:48   #20
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Quote:
from Aceman:
Wow. That is an unbelievably bad idea. Please tell me you are going "in search of" deer.
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Originally Posted by mixflip View Post
I agree, doing a building search for an active shooter or responding to a man with a gun call, with your safety "off" is a scary thought.
I've taught shotgun a lot and in a lot of places, and if you (generic "you", not specific) are walking around with the chamber loaded with a shotgun you need to have the safety engaged as the standard default, be it civilian, LE, or military. Most shotguns do not lock the firing pin when the safety is on, leaving it subject to discharge as the result of a bang or hit. As you bring the shotgun to ready you take the safety off.

Quote:
from mixflip:
Why would I want to walk into an ambush with my safety off?
The idea is not to walk into an ambush. But the other idea is that you provide a significant increase in personal safety to you and others in the area with a minimal increase in danger. Think about a 1911. You would keep the safety on until you were in the actual presentation, not take it off before you began the search. If taking the safety off during the presentation slows you down you are doing something wrong.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 03-18-2010 at 10:58..
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:09   #21
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I agree with the logic, especially with the 1911. My only question is...if I am searching with a shotgun and my shotgun is shouldered and my muzzle is down range and I am walking down a hallway does it still make sense to have a shouldered weapon that is pointed down range at an armed threat area with the safety off? Doesnt it make more sense that if the shotgun leaves your shoulder, to then go ahead and swipe on your safety.

It just seems too "reactive" and not "proactive" to have the safety on when the gun is shouldered and pointed down range. If there are AD's from handing off long guns or gun grabs...then someone is doing something wrong also? Am I off base on this?

Last edited by mixflip; 03-18-2010 at 11:11..
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:28   #22
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I agree with the logic, especially with the 1911.
And the long gun is no different...safety off as the target is ID'd and the firearm is presented.
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My only question is...if I am searching with a shotgun and my shotgun is shouldered and my muzzle is down range and I am walking down a hallway does it still make sense to have a shouldered weapon that is pointed down range at an armed threat area with the safety off?
It isn't an issue of what makes sense, it is an issue of what provides the best cost/benefit relationship. History, training, experience, etc. indicate taht if yo are clearing ahouse with a chamber-loaded shotgun you put the safety on and leave it on until the target is ID'd and you are trying to shoot it.
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It just seems too "reactive" and not "proactive" to have the safety on when the gun is shouldered and pointed down range.
I'm not sure what your house searching experience is, but I would suggest if your gun is shouldered and pointed downrange without a verified target it is counterproductive to have the safety off. I'm not real sure how you determine downrange until there is a target, BTW. Most search techniques with the long gun have the gun at a ready position during the search.
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Am I off base on this?
I think so, but I may be visualizing it differently than you are.
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Old 03-18-2010, 11:53   #23
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I will defer to David for this chat. He is doing a fine job; I disagree with nothing he has offered.

I will add that ours are SOGs, "Standard Operating Guidelines." Meaning, the guide can be flexible. Common sense, training and decision making are in the hands of the person within the situation, guided by the document. However, deviation from SOG best be articulated and will be judged by the "standard."

Adding, and as mixflip mentions, policy is driven by risk/management, liability, lawyers and the lack of common sense on the part of personnel. Couple all that with the need of (some) youngin's to be micro-managed... and there you have it. And a ps, common sense fails to run rampant these days, so it seems.
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Old 03-18-2010, 18:41   #24
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I'm not sure what your house searching experience is...
I have only done a couple real world building searches but both times were with my handgun. No long gun experience. I obviously need and want more active shooter and building search training. My dept is killing us slowly with the lack of training and blaming it on no budget for it.

You are obviously very experienced in building searches so you are a very good person to ask. How many shotgun AD's during a building search have you seen or heard about in your career? Is there data I can refer to that supports the "safety off is dangerous during building seraches" mindset?

My S&W4006TSW has a safety yet I dont carry it with the safety on nor did I swipe the safety on until a threat was identified when I actually did a real world building search. I am assuning the DA/SA function is considered the safety in this case when doing a building search?

So are you saying basically, that you subscribe to the safety on mindset only because of the cost/benefit relationship set forth by the risk managers? Are you saying that if you had it your way you would search a building with the safety off, but only do it because of the risk managers policy.

Let me ask you this, would you investigate a crashing window at the back of your house at 2am with the safety on?

Also, I never carried a 1911 on duty so I have no experience with it. So to be clear you are saying that 1911 carriers unholster their guns and keep a low ready with their safety on, then swipe it off as they bring it up on a target? Or do they automatically and instinctively swipe the safety off as they draw from the holster? A gun out of the holster is hot and ready for business so to speak?

I am not trying to be disrespectful, I am just trying to wrap my head around the safety on mindset a little better?

Last edited by mixflip; 03-18-2010 at 18:47..
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:51   #25
David Armstrong
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How many shotgun AD's during a building search have you seen or heard about in your career?
None that occurred with the safety on.
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Is there data I can refer to that supports the "safety off is dangerous during building seraches" mindset?
Probably not, as there is no national dataset on AD/NDs period. I find the accumulated wisdom of thousands of LEOs and hundreds of trainers over the years to be rather compelling, however.
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I am assuning the DA/SA function is considered the safety in this case when doing a building search?
Yes,a nd tha tmight be a way of undestanding it. Would you do the search with the handgun in SA mode?
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So are you saying basically, that you subscribe to the safety on mindset only because of the cost/benefit relationship set forth by the risk managers?
No, I subscribe to the safety on mindset for most becasue that is the best way to do it.
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Let me ask you this, would you investigate a crashing window at the back of your house at 2am with the safety on?
Depends on the firearm. Assuming an Ar-15, my Beretta 1201, M1 Carbine, etc. yes. I would also recommend that for most with a pump shotgun.
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So to be clear you are saying that 1911 carriers unholster their guns and keep a low ready with their safety on, then swipe it off as they bring it up on a target?
Yes.
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I am not trying to be disrespectful, I am just trying to wrap my head around the safety on mindset a little better?
No problem. Perhaps this will help....would you search with an 1873 Peacemaker (SA Cowboy gun) with the hammer cocked and no safety? That is essentially what you are doing with the shotgun when it is chamber loaded and safety off.
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