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Old 03-05-2010, 09:25   #1
SimonovsDog
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Why the need for speed?

Since I started reloading about 4 months ago, I noticed my 10mm loads that clock around 1000-1100fps are extremely accurate. The hotter/faster the load, the less accurate. I would much rather hit the target than break any speed records. Is there really any advantages in a 1600fps load?
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Old 03-05-2010, 09:52   #2
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Why speed???

My hot loads are just as accurate as my plinking loads. Why speed? 'cause it's a 10mm!!! If your happy with slower projectiles, shoot .40 short and weak.
Maybe you are anticipating the recoil on your hotter loads? Point of impact may change? Type of powder? Bullet weight? Dunno. Maybe someone with more knowledge on the subject will chime in.
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:40   #3
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Muzzle energy is the kinetic energy of a bullet as it is expelled from the muzzle of a firearm. It is often used as a rough indication of the destructive potential of a given firearm or load. The heavier the bullet and the faster it moves, the higher its muzzle energy and the more damage it will do.

Simply....

Faster means more woopasski.
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:36   #4
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My take is... why even bother having a 10mm, if you're only going to shoot it at .40S&W velocities? The whole point of shooting 10mm, is that you can safely push the same projectile significantly faster than the .40S&W cartridge.
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Old 03-05-2010, 22:44   #5
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Thanks for the enlightenment. I guess I should have specified that I'm loading for general target practice. I realize the 10mm is a powerhouse round. That's why I like it. However, if I'm just plinking I don't see the necessity in warp speed.
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Old 03-06-2010, 11:30   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonovsDog View Post
Thanks for the enlightenment. I guess I should have specified that I'm loading for general target practice. I realize the 10mm is a powerhouse round. That's why I like it. However, if I'm just plinking I don't see the necessity in warp speed.
You got questions, we got answers...

Just like you don't see the need for "warp speed" plinking rounds, guys like me don't see the point in "plinking" with a 10mm. I use my G20SF (soon to be G20L) for hunting/woods defense and long range target shooting. I want to know that I can consistently put hot rounds in the 10 ring. If I practice with weak loads, and hunt with full power loads, chances are the results aren't going to be acceptable to me. This is also the reason I put a lot of RA45TP through my Carry/HD guns, as much as I can afford to anyway. In the event that I have to use them for what they are designed for, I will know exactly what to expect when I pull the trigger. There are plenty of shooters that think like you, and plenty that think like me. I was just trying to explain to you why I prefer to shoot my 10mm at it's full potential.
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Old 03-13-2010, 10:36   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meathead9 View Post
My take is... why even bother having a 10mm, if you're only going to shoot it at .40S&W velocities? The whole point of shooting 10mm, is that you can safely push the same projectile significantly faster than the .40S&W cartridge.
Answer to the question: Because if you want a high precision round, you can load to at or near .40 s&w velocities and get there. If you want a wallop round for hunting, you can create (or purchase) one of those as well.

I have just started reloading 10mm, and can tell you that I experienced the same thing the o.p. did with 155gr. XTPs. Guessing that 1150 fps +/- is where I'm at out of the G29 w/11.2g of Blue dot, but it's got very good precision. Tried it out at 12.0g and found a large spread. My sample was small, so there could be more testing done on this, but I have limited time and money, so I'm going to continue loading 11.2g for this load.

Also: I believe this to be a fine self defense round, so that's what I'm carrying now.

Since I purchased the pistol, I have been carrying double tap's 200gr. Montana gold rounds. I have found that this round has acceptable precision. I can hit at 50y with this round and it has enough wallop for deer hunting (unlike my target/self defense rounds do).

However, I am concerned a tad that it has excessive penetration on soft bodies, so although there could be an advantage to that attribute, there are potentially negative consequences (unintended targets, etc.) considering the multiple scenarios possible in a self defense role.

The whole point in my mind with the 10mm is having a firearm/cartridge that can adapt to variable needs...and yes, it is fun to shoot. Also, it doesn't have that strange recoil that a .40 has - and it sounds like a .44 mag when it goes off.
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Old 03-13-2010, 16:13   #8
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So the 10mm is only a "precision round" at .40 velocities?

I still don't see the benefit of occasionally packing a "wallop", if you can't hit your intended target because you are only accurate with weak loads. I wouldn't buy a G32, and load it down to 9mm velocities because I wasn't accurate shooting full power loads. If that were the case, I would buy a G19. The versatility of the round is gone if I can't shoot it accurately at full power.

I don't load my .45's down to 700fps, or my .357mag's down to 900fps either...

I don't use my 10mm's for HD/CC. I have my .45's for that. I carry DT 200gr WFNGC's for hunting/woods defense, and load 135/155/165/180gr for target shooting. I also put 10-20 rounds of the DT stuff before I go hunting, to make sure I'm still good to go.

Maybe you guys should try different bullet weights, or powders. I am more accurate with hot 180's and 165's, than I am with the lighter bullets. Don't give up on shooting a true 10mm, just keep trying new loads until you find one that suits you and your gun.
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Old 03-18-2010, 21:33   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meathead9 View Post
So the 10mm is only a "precision round" at .40 velocities?
The "only" portion has been conveniently added by you.

Quote:
I still don't see the benefit of occasionally packing a "wallop", if you can't hit your intended target because you are only accurate with weak loads.
Accuracy and precision are not the same thing meathead. Accuracy is hitting your target - not a problem for the "wallop" loads when the target is 8" or smaller at 50 yards (the precision of those rounds are better than that). The "wallop" loads do not have the type of precision you want when you are trying to hone the smallest groups possible out of your pistol however. Sometimes, it is preferable to have a load that shows very high levels of precision over energy (the "wallop" so to speak).


Quote:
I wouldn't buy a G32, and load it down to 9mm velocities because I wasn't accurate shooting full power loads. If that were the case, I would buy a G19. The versatility of the round is gone if I can't shoot it accurately at full power.
Accuracy = mean shots centered around the target
Precision = error around the mean.

You are using the terms interchangeably when in fact, they are two separate terms. You're not alone. Even the best gun writers are ignorant to this distinction. The difference between you and them however, is that you aren't anymore.

Quote:
I don't load my .45's down to 700fps, or my .357mag's down to 900fps either...
That's because you're not a competition shooter who requires a higher level of precision than you will get out of the max loads.

Quote:
I don't use my 10mm's for HD/CC. I have my .45's for that. I carry DT 200gr WFNGC's for hunting/woods defense, and load 135/155/165/180gr for target shooting. I also put 10-20 rounds of the DT stuff before I go hunting, to make sure I'm still good to go.
Good for you.

Quote:
Maybe you guys should try different bullet weights, or powders. I am more accurate with hot 180's and 165's, than I am with the lighter bullets. Don't give up on shooting a true 10mm, just keep trying new loads until you find one that suits you and your gun.
There is nothing wrong with loading a round at less than max (or beyond max) loads. Apparently it bothers you. I'm not sure why...

Like I said, it is hard to get a load much hotter than Double Tap's 200 grain XTP (now 180 grain Montana Gold?) load, and that load shoots fine out of my G29. I'll reserve that one for hunting though.

The real beauty of the 10mm cartridge is that it is the only auto cartridge that is chambered in a compact pistol and can do double duty between concealed carry/personal defense + meeting Colorado's elk handgun hunting requirement of 550 ft.lbs. @ 50 yards (the stock G29 won't meet this but it will with an aftermarket barrel). E.G. it's enough gun.

For the record, my choice in bullets would be a 135 grain or lighter full metal jacket, the 190 grain sierra fmj bullet or the 165 grain Barnes X bullet and 200 grain Hornady XTP bullet.

If only one, the 200g XTP would be my choice as the ballistic coefficient is among the highest and one obtains the highest energy out of this cartridge with a 200g bullet. The problem is, they aren't in stock anywhere and Hornady only loads them periodically. The barnes X bullet is expensive, and I can't seem to be able to find the other two around either. The 155 and 180 xtps I can find sometimes, and the last time I was reloading, the 155 was the only bullet available to me, so THERE is the answer on why I didn't try the others!
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Old 03-19-2010, 13:22   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meathead9 View Post
So the 10mm is only a "precision round" at .40 velocities?
Your statement is wrong on so many levels.
You will exceed .40 S&W's maximum velocity with any of the 10 mm's most accurate loads. But, the .40 S&W frequently finds its most accurate loads at much lower velocities.
Examples:
Lyman 49th edition Reloading manual states the following are the most accurate loads for each respective cartridge
A 190 grain 10 mm JHP most accurate loading at 1168 fps
A 190 grain .40 S&W FP most accurate loading at 870 fps - (this is a maximum load for a .40 S&W FP)

A 150 grain 10 mm JHP most accurate loading at 1292 fps
A 150 grain .40 S&W JHP most accurate loading at 799 fps

A .40 S&W max load for a 150 grain JHP only goes 1054 fps.

The 10 mm finds its best accuracy at velocities the .40 S&W can only dream of attaining. You should grab a reloading manual which notes the most accurate loads and compare the .40 and the 10mm. You may find it enlightening.
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Old 03-19-2010, 13:39   #11
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You guys are missing the point...

The OP seemed to be bothered by FULL POWER LOADS. I explained why I am not.

The OP stated that he is accuarate with 1000-1100fps loads. I have subsonic 180gr Ranger .40's that run 1015fps.

I clearly hit a nerve with you guys, I didn't realize fellow 10mm shooters were so sensitive.

Maybe you should go back and read the first post, then read my responses, then process the whole conversation, then realize you missed the point.
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Old 03-19-2010, 13:50   #12
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When I test reloads, I see that as I go up in powder weight, the groups open up and close. Now, depending on your powder of choice, those closed groups could be either at two or three different points of your powder weight range. I'd say that it depends on which powder you're using before I can say that slower is generally better than not.
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Old 03-19-2010, 15:53   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervaDoe View Post
Your statement is wrong on so many levels.
You will exceed .40 S&W's maximum velocity with any of the 10 mm's most accurate loads. But, the .40 S&W frequently finds its most accurate loads at much lower velocities.
Bingo!

(except that you continue to perpetuate the incorrect use of the term "accurate" - along with everyone else in the world of firearm use).
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Old 03-19-2010, 16:01   #14
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Originally Posted by Beware Owner View Post
When I test reloads, I see that as I go up in powder weight, the groups open up and close.
It is true that the precision is inconsistent due (primarily) to the changing the harmonic vibration of the bullet. Get it in a sweet spot as high as you can get it and don't muck with it further for precision.


Quote:
Now, depending on your powder of choice, those closed groups could be either at two or three different points of your powder weight range. I'd say that it depends on which powder you're using before I can say that slower is generally better than not.
This is the beauty of testing various loads with the use of a ransom rest. Of course, the ransom rest only takes the shooter out of the equation and that may not always be a good thing, but it will surely tell you a lot about what amount of powder makes the load that has the highest level of precision.

In MOST cases, it is NOT the max load.
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Old 03-19-2010, 19:29   #15
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(except that you continue to perpetuate the incorrect use of the term "accurate" - along with everyone else in the world of firearm use).
??? Please explain ???
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Old 03-19-2010, 19:32   #16
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Originally Posted by Meathead9 View Post
Maybe you should go back and read the first post, then read my responses, then process the whole conversation, then realize you missed the point.
He said:
Quote:
Is there really any advantages in a 1600fps load?
You said:
Quote:
So the 10mm is only a "precision round" at .40 velocities?

I got his point. I was just correcting your misinformation.

Now you're off topic and you are like the pot calling the kettle black.
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Old 03-19-2010, 21:11   #17
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I'll say it again, s-l-o-w-e-r, and louder just for you...

READ ALL OF THE POSTS!

kegs said something to the efect of, "if you want a high precision round, you can load to at or near .40 s&w velocities and get there."

Then I posted:

So the 10mm is only a "precision round" at .40 velocities?

IT WAS A QUESTION, NOT A STATEMENT as you described it as you got on your soap box and completely derailed the thread.

I'm done with you clowns. Instead of addressing the original post, you attack people on the exact definition of accuracy vs precision. Who gives a flying ****? Really? Precision = error around the mean??? You must really like to hear yourself talk saying crap like that.

And for the record, I NEVER even mentioned "precision" until kegs brought it up. All I talked about was accuracy...
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Old 03-19-2010, 22:28   #18
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I'm done with you clowns.
So you'll be leaving now? I guess there is no need to put you on my ignore list.

... and FOR THE RECORD, I find you plenty slow enough ....
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Old 03-20-2010, 08:08   #19
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Yes, that would be the adult thing to do. Bury your head in the sand anytime someone calls you out for being wrong. Don't address what I said, just hit that ignore button, and you'll never ever ever be wrong again. It must be nice living in a world like that...
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Old 03-20-2010, 11:56   #20
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Come on, peeps, don't mess up a perfectly good thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
It is true that the precision is inconsistent due (primarily) to the changing the harmonic vibration of the bullet. Get it in a sweet spot as high as you can get it and don't muck with it further for precision.
And that change in the harmonic vibration is due to that, simply put, no two powder charges will burn the same. There can be a sweet spot, and there can be a sweeter spot, we can really never tell if it will be higher or lower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
This is the beauty of testing various loads with the use of a ransom rest. Of course, the ransom rest only takes the shooter out of the equation and that may not always be a good thing, but it will surely tell you a lot about what amount of powder makes the load that has the highest level of precision.

In MOST cases, it is NOT the max load.
If I'm testing for precision loads, I can't see another way to test other than the ransom rest. If I want to test my accuracy, then I remove the rest from the equation. I've heard many rifle loaders say that the max load usually is not the most precise, as you say.
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