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Old 03-05-2010, 15:15   #1
swat220
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1911 vs. Glock 17

I'm getting kind of frustrated. I just got back from the range where I spent just about the same amount of ammo through my G17 as I did my Taurus 1911 each one having drastically different results.

My problem is that at 25 yards (my range doesn't have closer targets) My G17 rounds barely hit the target at all, I was missing way left. My 1911 was much closer to center an much more consistent grouping, although still shooting almost exclusively left.

Anyone have any ideas as to what the discrepancy might be and how to fix it? One thought that I had as to what the issue may be is with trigger pull. the Glock at 5 pounds and the 191 at 3.5. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!
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Old 03-05-2010, 15:17   #2
seanmac45
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You may be anticipating the shot and pulling down as it breaks.

Try some dedicated dry firing with a strong focus on the front sight. It should not dip at all as the trigger breaks.
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Old 03-05-2010, 16:01   #3
David Armstrong
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If both groups were left, like Seanmac said you are probably anticipating. When my guns don't group where I think they are supposed to, I do two things. First, I fire them supported from the bench. I also have someone I know as a good shooter to shoot the gun. After seeing what the results are, I can get a better idea if the sights just need adjusting or if there is some other problem. FWIW, 5 of the 7 Glocks I've owned needed to have the sights adjusted before they shot where I was aiming.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 03-05-2010 at 16:02..
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Old 03-05-2010, 16:26   #4
dgg9
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Whenever I'm unsure if it's me or the gun, I shoot a few rounds left handed and see if the problem stays the same.
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Old 03-05-2010, 16:41   #5
PaulMason
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75ft is the closest target? Go to another range where you can get a target closer to you. At that distance you might get the bullets on target but you really will not know if you are doing something wrong just to get them there.
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Old 03-05-2010, 17:36   #6
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I have a simular issue. Although not to such extreams, while shooting glocks (especialy when tring for small groups) I tend to put them to the left. This usualy translates to 6" or so more left at 25 yards than with my Kimber. I have large hands but short fingers and glocks just don't fit right in my hands. This is the main reason I perfer my personaly owned but authorized 1911 to my issued glock 23. I tend to hold the glock slightly side-saddled and this worked untill we were authorized the 1911's. At most reasonable distances this dosen't matter much so I carry the 23 for defensive purposes (off duty carry, surveillence, office duty) but when it comes to offensive missions (search warrants, buy busts, checking on the bump in the night) its my Kimber in my holster. I've come to respect glocks for thier toughness and relibility but untill they make one that fits (and I can carry due to policy there for no gen 4 or robar) I'll still perfer the 100 year old design.
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Old 03-05-2010, 18:44   #7
Jedburgh
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My guess is that it's the trigger. Glocks weigh around 2 pounds loaded and have a 5 pound trigger, while 1911's weigh around 3 pounds loaded with a 4.5 pound trigger.

To press the Glock trigger to the rear you're applying two and a half times the weight of the pistol. It's a common problem on a light weight pistol. It's one of the reasons people think 1911's just "shoot" better. The single action, heavier pistol will always tend to shoot tighter groups until you work out the problems in your grip.

If you wrap your weak hand around the trigger guard, it could also contribute to the rounds being pushed left.

I would take a good look at your grip.

Good luck.

DOL
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Old 03-05-2010, 19:06   #8
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My problem is that I don't shoot at your range!

Instead of dry firing, I humbly suggest you get some dummy rounds to mix in with your live rounds, to see what the gun (actually you ) is doing when the trigger breaks.


From an earlier thread today....

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC Drew View Post
Dry firing does not help to diagnose shooting errors as much as

- mixing dummy rounds in

- having a 3rd party observe you while you shoot

At 30ft, there are not a whole lot of things you can screw up, so with observation and using dummy rounds in the mix, it's relatively easy to spot, and most times correct.

In the final analysis, if the firearm's POA = POI, you are disturbing the sight picture immediately before, at or just immediately after the trigger breaks. We generally do these things because of

- flinching
- recoil anticipation
- lack of proper follow thru
- attempting to "look over" the gun's sights to see where the shot hit
- attempting to pull the gun down in preparation for the next shot (very similar to recoil anticipation, but is really a result of wanting to maintain sight alignment with faster shooting).

The corrective actions for the above would be (again, the assumption here is that the gun is 100% functional, and accurate)

- stop flinching. This can be minimized by doubling up on hearing protection (not as loud muzzle report), shooting outdoors in daylight (less muzzle flash, not as loud)

- stop anticipating recoil. Mixing dummy rounds in with live rounds will help you to see if you do this.

- practice good use of the shooting fundamentals, and in particular, follow thru.

- don't spend too much time trying to see where you hit.

- don't be in a rush to make the next shot. Each & every single shot should go thru that mental "pre-flight" checklist of the fundamentals all the way up to follow thru. Make every shot count, take your time.

'Drew
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:13   #9
swat220
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Thanks for the advice guys. Some good tips in there that I can work on. I know that I anticipate recoil a little bit but I'm not sure hit to fix it. What I concentrate on most now to avoid this is to just keep applying more pressure on the trigger slowly while keeping sight alignment. That way the trigger will almost "surprise" break. It has helped a little but my shooting flaws are still showing at that distance.

As far as I know none of the ranges in my area have any targets closer than 25 yds which is frustrating but I do own about 100 acres that isn't really accessible in the winter but I will set up targets there when it warms up to do some closer practicing.

Would you suggest a tighter or loser grip on the gun? I need a good hands on lesson I think lol. Thanks again guys
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Old 03-06-2010, 10:16   #10
Gallium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swat220 View Post
Thanks for the advice guys. Some good tips in there that I can work on. I know that I anticipate recoil a little bit but I'm not sure hit to fix it. What I concentrate on most now to avoid this is to just keep applying more pressure on the trigger slowly while keeping sight alignment. That way the trigger will almost "surprise" break. It has helped a little but my shooting flaws are still showing at that distance.

As far as I know none of the ranges in my area have any targets closer than 25 yds which is frustrating but I do own about 100 acres that isn't really accessible in the winter but I will set up targets there when it warms up to do some closer practicing.

Would you suggest a tighter or loser grip on the gun? I need a good hands on lesson I think lol. Thanks again guys

Swat,

In general, whereabouts are you? Chris Fry (MDTS) is in the central/Oneida NY region

https://mdtstraining.com/careers.htm

He runs a good school.

'Drew
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Old 03-06-2010, 18:22   #11
swat220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC Drew View Post
Swat,

In general, whereabouts are you? Chris Fry (MDTS) is in the central/Oneida NY region

https://mdtstraining.com/careers.htm

He runs a good school.

'Drew
This is great! Thank you for this link, I have been looking forever for something like this. I attended a Rochester Personal Defense class which was really good but it was over an hour away from my house. I live in a suburb right outside the city of Syracuse so this will be much more convenient. Thanks Drew!
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Old 03-07-2010, 06:06   #12
Gallium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swat220 View Post
This is great! Thank you for this link, I have been looking forever for something like this. I attended a Rochester Personal Defense class which was really good but it was over an hour away from my house. I live in a suburb right outside the city of Syracuse so this will be much more convenient. Thanks Drew!
You're welcome swat.

Chris Fry is also a Glocktalk member...but he does spend more time on ar15.com

Like I said, you will not be disappointed with the stuff he brings to the table - newbie or 10 yr LE veteran.

'Drew
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:44   #13
shnifty
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How many rounds do you have through your g17? That used to happen to me. All I've done to improve my accuracy is watch some shooting videos on youtube and practiced dry firing. Figure out the best way for you to get your front sight to not move at all. You shouldn't have any problem creating good groups at 25 yards. squeese the trigger slower?
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