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Old 02-11-2010, 13:49   #1
Wash-ar15
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Is being sprayed with mace considered a deadlly threat?

Been reading that some folks are using mace or pepper spray to precipitate an attack. If you are sprayed in an unprovoked attack,would this be considered an deadly force attack?
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Old 02-11-2010, 14:02   #2
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I carry mace for situations when deadly force is not justified but I need a way out from a potentially bad situation. I do not consider it deadly force. I'd only use it if provoked however.
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Old 02-11-2010, 14:15   #3
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You should have a friend spray you in the face/eyes with mace/pepper stray then have him physically attack you and see how you do.

Another thing you could do is get an a couple airsoft guns. He sprays you then you try to engage him with your gun before he shots you.

Tells us how it goes...
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Old 02-11-2010, 14:41   #4
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Absolutely yes. If you get sprayed you are incapacitated and your weapon is at risk of being taken.
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Old 02-11-2010, 14:51   #5
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This is not an easy question to answer and the situation would dictate a lot of things. A lot of factors come into play. A uniformed police officer with a gun in plain view on his hip being sprayed in the face is a lot different from a regular citizen with a concealed handgun being sprayed. I would think that it would be a lot easier for the police officer to argue why he had to shoot the person who sprayed and then fought with him (saying that he was concerned about his gun being taken away, since it was clearly visible and everyone would have expected him, a uniformed officer to be armed) than it would for an ordinary citizen carrying concealed to argue why he up and shot someone who sprayed him. Then again, like I said, every situation is different and the concern about having your gun taken away (concealed or not) is certainly a valid one. So...a hard question to answer, IMO. FWIW, I carry spray, both on duty and off.

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Old 02-11-2010, 15:03   #6
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Under the eyes of the law, mace is non-lethal. But once you are incapacitated, what that person does to you will determine if your life is in jeopardy. If they try to harm you or take your gun, that is a different story. I'd shoot then. Personally, I would not want to be on trial for shooting someone who only maced me. But if I were a juror, I'd be forgiving. When maced you loose the ability to make sound judgement as your eyesight is compromised and you are having trouble breathing. Every situation is different and I'd be ready to shoot for sure.
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Old 02-11-2010, 15:33   #7
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Texas Dept. of Public Safety (Our Highway Police)

If someone gets their OC Pepper spray they are trained to shoot to Stop! (Kill).

So deadly force is called for.

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Old 02-11-2010, 16:56   #8
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The question should be: Is an unprovoked physical attack / assault by a stranger justification for use of deadly force?
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Old 02-11-2010, 17:02   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willard View Post
The question should be: Is an unprovoked physical attack / assault by a stranger justification for use of deadly force?
Short answer: NO
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Old 02-11-2010, 17:52   #10
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The question should be: Is an unprovoked physical attack / assault by a stranger justification for use of ly force?
More specifically; the question is: Can you convince a jury of 12 people that your life was in jeopardy and any reasonable and prudent person would have taken the same action you did.
If there is a doubt in your mind about convincing 12 jury members you should have family members start investing in soap on a rope for you.
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Old 02-12-2010, 03:06   #11
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Quote:
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The question should be: Is an unprovoked physical attack / assault by a stranger justification for use of deadly force?
I'd say that'd depend on if the victim was in fear for their life.
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Old 02-12-2010, 11:35   #12
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It also depends on what state you live. I am sure I can articulate well enough to get no billed in FL.
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:10   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willard View Post
The question should be: Is an unprovoked physical attack / assault by a stranger justification for use of deadly force?

That is the winner! The details of how the attack is being carried out don't matter under most circumstances, what matters is if the the attack rises to the level where deadly force can be used.
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Old 02-12-2010, 21:14   #14
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Originally Posted by Blaster View Post
More specifically; the question is: Can you convince a jury of 12 people that your life was in jeopardy and any reasonable and prudent person would have taken the same action you did.
If there is a doubt in your mind about convincing 12 jury members you should have family members start investing in soap on a rope for you.

And, remember, the average juror has an 8th grade level of education.
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Old 02-13-2010, 00:52   #15
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We just had a case a few months ago. A LEO shot and killed a suspect after the suspect sprayed mace in the officer's eyes and the officer felt the suspect was going after his gun. I think the case of deadly force depends on the situation
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Old 02-13-2010, 02:33   #16
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Did you get sprayed yet?
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Old 02-13-2010, 10:29   #17
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I would assume that someone that has sprayed me with mace is not considering inviting me to a cup of coffee. An unprovoked attack with mace will be viewed as the other personís intent of incapacitating me to the point Iím unable to defend myself. Yes, I consider such an attack merits the use of deadly force. Whether or not I would respond with deadly force will greatly depend on the circumstances and who is around me at that time. If I happen to be with my granddaughter (sheís 3 years old) it is unlikely that Iíll consider shooting if Iím unable to clearly see my target. With older members of the family I know they would move out of the way and I would likely be more inclined to use deadly force. A lot of variables to consider on what I believe a likely response would be on my part. Nonetheless, I would still consider an unprovoked mace spray as an attack where deadly force is justified.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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Old 02-13-2010, 10:40   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wash-ar15 View Post
Been reading that some folks are using mace or pepper spray to precipitate an attack. If you are sprayed in an unprovoked attack,would this be considered an deadly force attack?
I assume you're making reference to the "self-defense/defense of others" doctrine. That defense does not require an attack amounting to deadly force, only the threat of "serious bodily injury". If you have a reasonable belief, based on objective fact, that you or an innocent third party is faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury or a serious felony (rape, robber, murder, burglary, arson), then you may respond with such force as is reasonably necessary, up to and including deadly force, to quell the attack. (At common law, that is, and I'm speaking here as a Virginia attorney.)

If you have reason to believe that the mace or pepper spray is a precursor to (and thus part of) a robbery or threat of serious bodily harm, do what you need to do. Note also, that "fear for one's life", or any other emotional response, is completely irrelevant to the defense.

Check this answer with an attorney where you live before accepting it as "gospel".
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Old 02-13-2010, 11:03   #19
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I assume you're making reference to the "self-defense/defense of others" doctrine. That defense does not require an attack amounting to deadly force, only the threat of "serious bodily injury". If you have a reasonable belief, based on objective fact, that you or an innocent third party is faced with the imminent threat of serious bodily injury or a serious felony (rape, robber, murder, burglary, arson), then you may respond with such force as is reasonably necessary, up to and including deadly force, to quell the attack. (At common law, that is, and I'm speaking here as a Virginia attorney.)

If you have reason to believe that the mace or pepper spray is a precursor to (and thus part of) a robbery or threat of serious bodily harm, do what you need to do. Note also, that "fear for one's life", or any other emotional response, is completely irrelevant to the defense.

Check this answer with an attorney where you live before accepting it as "gospel".
I have a question. How do you separate ďa reasonable belief of serious bodily injuryĒ from what you mention is the emotional response ďfear for oneís lifeĒ? Iím trying to separate the two in my mind and they seem to be intertwined.

.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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Old 02-13-2010, 11:14   #20
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Originally Posted by Misty02 View Post
I have a question. How do you separate ďa reasonable belief of serious bodily injuryĒ from what you mention is the emotional response ďfear for oneís lifeĒ? Iím trying to separate the two in my mind and they seem to be intertwined.

.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
They're not required to be separate; you may well be in fear for your life. But whether you have "fear" is legally irrelevant to the defense. That is to say, fear for your life, by itself is not enough, and killing an assailant without actually feeling fear ("in cold blood", as it were) may well be a good defense.
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Old 02-13-2010, 12:20   #21
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They're not required to be separate; you may well be in fear for your life. But whether you have "fear" is legally irrelevant to the defense. That is to say, fear for your life, by itself is not enough, and killing an assailant without actually feeling fear ("in cold blood", as it were) may well be a good defense.
I believe I get the gist of it. Not certain I can believe Iím in eminent danger of serious bodily harm and not feel fear of that danger ending my life.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Iíll equate that to my previous ability to put emotions (or an emotional response) aside during a crisis to more logically and effectively handle the issues at hand. Itís never involved the use of a firearm and I have eventually (well after the fact) given into the rush of emotions but not while I needed a clear head to determine how to proceed. It didnít mean I wasnít scared at the time though, I just didnít allow the emotion (fear) to cripple me when action was needed.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Iíve talked myself into a circle back to confusion here. The fear (or sense of danger?) was present at those times; just the emotional response to that fear was suppressed.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Youíve given me some food for thought here. Iíll have to further analyze and differentiate between fear and sense of danger.<o:p></o:p>

.
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Old 02-20-2010, 08:18   #22
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"The question should be: Is an unprovoked physical attack / assault by a stranger justification for use of deadly force?"

IMHO, the important issue is that I do not know what the attacker's intentions are. I do know that I have been attacked without provocation. Where is the attacker going to take the assault from here? Is the attacker armed? Is the assault going to continue or is the attacker going to leave? Is the attacker after my gun?

I consider being "maced" by an unprovoked assailant a precursor to a potentially deadly attack. Fear for potential serious bodily injury is definitely on my mind (minimum standard for use of deadly force in NYS). Glock27 or Kahr PM9 clears leather. The attacker now has a clear choice: break off the attack and live (he may exit the area or I may, depending on circumstances) or attempt to continue the assault and be stopped (hopefully) by multiple rounds. Remember that if you draw, you must be prepared to fire, but you do not have to fire. Use the minimum amount of deadly force (drawing is considered the use of deadly force in many states) to end the encounter.

If the assault occurred in an area with multiple people around, I would be much less likely to draw than if the assault occurred in a parking lot or on the street with few, if any, other people around.

The KEY part of this is that the attack was TOTALLY UNPROVOKED. Cannot justify deadly force if I instigated the attack. This is why, as CCW'ers, our behavior must be beyond reproach.

And PLEASE call the police and report the incident ASAP.
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Old 02-20-2010, 09:40   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willard View Post
The question should be: Is an unprovoked physical attack / assault by a stranger justification for use of deadly force?
Can the victim articulate the reason for shooting the attacker?
Size/age issues? Health issues? Totality of circumstances? To give a blanket yes or no would be imprudent.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:23   #24
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Would you shoot someone for throwing a glass of wine in your face? Would you if they threw tobasco in your face?

If you can't fight back/ see whats going on/ move after getting sprayed, you have some issues to deal with.
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Old 02-23-2010, 16:58   #25
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PX:

Shoot for a glass of wine or tabasco in the face? You are being absurd. I specifically posted regarding being "maced". As far as other forms of physical attack? Depends on how threatening the circumstances are.
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