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Old 03-15-2010, 09:39   #26
Fly-n-hi
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If I was kicking your ***** or getting ready to kick your ***** and you pulled a gun on me that would piss me off. How dare you keep me from being able to bust you up.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:17   #27
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I am not an attorney. My comments are only my opinion, and represent conclusions I have made as a result of my own private research into CCW law and the applicable case law. For work I travel and as a result carry in multiple states... so I've had to do a lot of research and this is what I've come to believe about the specific situation you posed. I wanted my base CCW training to be consistent for the states I carried in (some strict, some relatively free), and not to have to be adapted on the fly depending on where I was, because I saw that as a dangerous situation for me, legally. The possibility of a mistake was high.

There are a few considerations here:

1. Was lethal force justified in your state? This is something you ought to know, RIGHT AWAY, by the time any altercation begins... no matter how quickly. You are not required, mid beating, to determine if the beating could possibly kill you or not. The biggest questions for many states is, "Could I get away or not?" If you could not run or get away--at any point of the escalation of the situation-- then you'll be safe for almost all states. Some do not require a person to flee first (as my state does not). Also, some states are iffy if the other person is not holding a weapon. If it's some sort of "tussle", lethal force may not yet be justified. If it is an attack or a beating, it will likely qualify so long as you did nothing to provoke it (as judged by witnesses and a jury).

2. Did you "see it coming"? Could you have walked away before it escalated? Did you do anything to provoke it ("get away from me, *******")?

3. If you were indeed ambushed, directly threatened ("I'm going to gut you, *******") and/or if you begin taking damage, you are most likely properly justified in using lethal force or the threat of lethal force. Fights are much quicker than most people know. Even if you "outmatch" your opponent by 150 lbs, if they place one good shot to your throat, head, or back of neck/head you can find yourself unconscious or the proud new owner of a permanent injury. And if you were rendered unconscious, while he's high on his adrenaline rush, even one stomp on your undefended body can cause critical injury or death. So if you end up in a fight, and if you believe the person intends to do you harm, and if you believe you are justified in the use/threat of lethal force, then I believe you should use it.

4. From my research and reading over the years, I've come to believe that you should not draw your weapon until you are READY and WILLING to use it, and until the moment when you WILL USE IT. Here's why:

a. Brandishing the weapon may have some value, but it has too many drawbacks. The threat of force may stop the attack, but it may also spin it wildly out of control. If the attacker is within 7 yards (which, if they aren't, you probably won't be justified in calling it an SD situation unless he has a gun or it is a hostage/holdup type of situation), then he can close that gap in less than a second or two and can take the weapon and use it against you much more quickly than people realize. This could also put bystanders at risk.

b. The only step before PRESENT and SHOOT that I've seen value in is to put the non gun hand out straight in a STOP! hand motion and to put the gun hand on the gun grip while in the holster. If possible this should happen concurrently with a strong, clear verbal warning, "STOP! I have a firearm and will defend myself if you attack!" Something clear, concise, and that will help clearly remind a jury that you provided a warning when witnesses are questioned.

c. When the gun is presented (let's say compressed ready extended to shooting position), that's the split second someone can turn to run or get the hell down. If not, then you should probably use your gun. Because, again, once it's out the whole world has changed for you already and whatever follows will happen lightening quick.


So to recap: I see only two ways that a wise person will use their weapon in an encounter. The first is to extend a warning hand (if possible) and to grip the gun in the holster while issuing a warning. This may be considered "threat of lethal force" in some states and should only be used if the situation qualifies. The other way is to draw the handgun with intent to fire it is the target does not instantly relent and if you have a proper backdrop for your shot.

Using the gun as a "warning" is dangerous and the CCW holder generally has the most to lose from that action. Using a gun to "cool someone down" is not really an approved legal use and is not well covered by state law. A gun is allowed to be used to dispel immanent lethal danger. By grabbing the grip and issuing a proper warning you are keeping the gun protected but WARNING him that you are about to use lawful force to defend yourself... you're not trying to use your gun as a negotiation tool (even something like "if you calm down I won't shoot you"). It's a delicate line but an important one if you read a lot of handgun/self defense case law.

As always, take my comments and interpret them only in light of your state's CCW laws and the case law that exists in your jurisdiction.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:36   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorhugger View Post
On hindsight I think I should have shot the SOB.
I doubt you would be justified in court... depending on how liberal your state is you'll be a hero or a villain.
So you paralyze him for life (One of your hollowpoints logged in his spine) His relatives sue the crap out of you for medical damages and your legal fees bankrupt your butt.
So if you do really have to pop one in him, make sure it's lethal.
On the other hand a blackeye on both of you seems cheaper.
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Old 03-15-2010, 17:46   #29
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I don't mean to short change the the thread, but this has been addressed in quite a number of posts. The problem is that folks with actual training and experience are drowned out by the less informed.

You need a foundation of knowledge to build upon...read some Massad Ayoob books for starters. I find him to be pretty much spot on. If you want a different perspective, make a connection in local law enforcement and take a look at their training outlines or read their departmental use-of-force policies, they should be readily available.

Some trainers will work up some "one-liners" to simplify the concepts...maybe something like: Don't kill anyone over a fair fight. Sounds to simplistic? Think about it a little.

You may be within your rights, but end up screwed. The main question is "Do I HAVE to shoot", not "CAN I shoot".
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Old 03-15-2010, 20:44   #30
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Well, I will pitch in my personal twist...

I have 3 disks collapsing in my neck and I am a surgery candidate.

Sharp blows to my face or body could cause me damage... as in complete disorientation, complete immobilization, and/or eliminate my ability to walk, run, or defend myself.

Learned this once when I fell on ice in the driveway and could not get up for 5 minutes....

I make distance quickly... and throw the change!!!

If they keep coming, then it's on Cuz...

I look completely normal, except my arms are rather skinny due to the inability to workout my upper body.

So be careful who you engage in a fight... you might loose everything you own if you swing on me unjustified! My wife can be wicked... ;v)

Your Thoughts?
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Old 03-15-2010, 22:47   #31
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  1. My neck is a mess like Pierre! and a solid hit most likely would paralyze or kill me. The neurosurgeon refuses to operate saying it's to risky.
  2. Bad back also, so I cannot fight and I cannot run.
  3. My wife uses a walker, so if she's with me I probably won't do much hesitating.
That's why I carry. So if some BG wants to punch me out I don't have many options. Great if he listens to me and backs off, but I don't see I have much choice other than to shoot if attacked.

Does this mean I'll spend what's left of my life in some prison leaving my wife to fend for herself?
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Old 03-16-2010, 09:53   #32
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Originally Posted by OldLincoln View Post
  1. My neck is a mess like Pierre! and a solid hit most likely would paralyze or kill me. The neurosurgeon refuses to operate saying it's to risky.
  2. Bad back also, so I cannot fight and I cannot run.
  3. My wife uses a walker, so if she's with me I probably won't do much hesitating.
That's why I carry. So if some BG wants to punch me out I don't have many options. Great if he listens to me and backs off, but I don't see I have much choice other than to shoot if attacked.

Does this mean I'll spend what's left of my life in some prison leaving my wife to fend for herself?
Sounds like you/your doctor will be able to articulate that you have a specific condition & that a minor fist fight will result in serious physical injury on your part. You still may be obligated to retreat/attempt in your area...look into that aspect.
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Old 03-16-2010, 17:00   #33
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To look at me, 6'1" and 235, it could be said by appearance that I can handle my own. However... I have a bad heart with a pacemaker/defibrillator. My endurance to fight is slim/none since my LEF is about 25% (normal is near 50).

I will avoid a confrontation at all costs... but when cornered, someones gonna spring some leaks.
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Old 03-16-2010, 18:12   #34
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http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

This should help answer your question.
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Old 03-16-2010, 21:10   #35
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I am 6'5" and 200lbs. I look bigger than I am (mainly because of my height and abnormally large noggin) That being said I lack in upper body strength due to a heart problem. You would not know it by looking at me, nor do I feel it, in fact I just have doctor ordered weight lifting restrictions. Because of my heart condition I am also at risk from blows to upper body.
All that being said, for me lethal force would be the very last resort, I do all I can to avoid areas and situations that may arise.
If put in the situation I would not relish it, but would indeed defend my life and the life of those I love.
I pray and hope to never have to use my CCW.
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:45   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMG View Post
http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

This should help answer your question.
EK
Nice Link TMG!

Some really good info in there... This is on my "periodic review till I Get It" list!
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:39   #37
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You can use deadly force if there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you have another option, take it. If you can run, then run. The more alternatives you try, the more likely the jury will side with you. If you're only options are a fistfight or deadly force, then it starts getting sticky. I think that would have to be judged on a case by case basis (I think it would mostly come down to if there was a disparity of force, etc).

Also, as someone else suggested, this is an excellent example of when pepper spray would have come in handy.

EDIT: So, to answer the question, I think the same rules apply for brandishing. Don't draw unless there's an imminent threat.

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Old 03-17-2010, 12:21   #38
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Question:
I carry SOB. (small of back)
Once I begin my retreat, and the BG is still persuing, Can I "flash" with hand-on and verbal command? (...something like, "I'm armed. I need you to stop advancing on me!)

Just curious here. Not saying that running is not the absolute BEST option.

Edit:
Just read the post about brandishing....
If the weapon is still out of sight, is an indication to the BG that you are armed the same as brandishing?

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Old 03-17-2010, 14:30   #39
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^ It's the lesser of two evils...if you will have a loss of limb, eyesight, life, etc from a fistfight (medically obvious condition), then retreat...still not working? Going to be outrun? Show weapon and issue a verbal command, that's it. Further proof that a "sane attacker" would not continue an attack unless his intent was to cause harm/disarm.
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Old 03-17-2010, 15:10   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beala View Post
You can use deadly force if there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.
...and there is sufficient Disparity of Force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_xaTf5oqI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGJIyxm2s_M
(Disparity of Force is covered 4:05 into this video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNCRL9SN2QA
(...and continues thru this video...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJazmbDH7S8
(...and into this video)
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Old 03-17-2010, 20:54   #41
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...and there is sufficient Disparity of Force.
Depends upon you're state's deadly force use laws. Some states don't address disparity of force.
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Old 03-17-2010, 23:03   #42
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In general, the threat of deadly force is seen as the same thing as the use of deadly force, in terms of opening you to prosecution (keep in mind the consequences are different). So if you are justified to shoot, then you're also justified to "brandish" or present the threat of deadly force.

Whether it's a good idea to warn instead of just shoot is a matter of judgment.
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Old 03-17-2010, 23:13   #43
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Depends upon you're state's deadly force use laws. Some states don't address disparity of force.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that my state's laws don't say anything specifically about disparity of force. I always just thought that disparity of force was one way to establish that a deadly threat existed. For example, if you and your attacker both have guns, then there's no disparity of force, but there's still a deadly threat (thus you're still justified in shooting).
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