GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-12-2010, 17:29   #21
ElectricZombie
Senior Member
 
ElectricZombie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,205
I'd only pull my weapon if there was distance and my physical response didn't get the reaction I wanted.
__________________
G17, G21, G23RTF2
ElectricZombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 17:41   #22
PlayboyPenguin
Senior Member
 
PlayboyPenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoadedTech View Post
You drew this avatar?
Yup, all except the lettering on the t-shirt. That I added with photoshop.
__________________
"Laugh all you want, but when the zombies come we both know whose house you will be running to for protection."
- My response to friends that laugh at me for collecting firearms
PlayboyPenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 20:35   #23
SafetyGuy83
Senior Member
 
SafetyGuy83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Western PA
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by rohanreginald View Post
The OP is refering to himself as "the old man".

I think the OP did the right thing. I am sure that was scary, but not sure if your life was really endangered and that is one sucky position to be in. Escalation of force is always something to be aware of.
You are correct sir. My apologies. I think it would depend what state you are in as to whether an unarmed man presents a deadly threat. To me it certainly is. I have seen people get knocked out and the other individual continues to beat them. No doubt this is life threatening.
__________________
An armed society is a polite society
SafetyGuy83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2010, 10:49   #24
LApm9
Senior Member
 
LApm9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorhugger View Post
If you are walking out of store, some man asks for change,
then gets obnoxious, then gets in your face and imples he is
going to "kick your 'butt;"
Do you -
1. pull your concealed weapon and tell them to back off
2. Pull your weapon and proceed to unleash hell
3. Wait until you are pushed to pull weapon
4 wait until you are punched to pull weapon
5. Refuse to draw weapon even if punches are raining down on you.
because other guy doesn't have a weapon.

Not a far fethced scenario. I have had this happen, and never pulled my
gun, we both went down swinging until security got there. On hindsight I think I should have shot the SOB.
One punch in the wrong side of head could have killed this old man.
Or he could have pulled a knife and fatally stabbed me while we were on the ground or wrestling around.
But then again, maybe I did the right thing since I am still a free man.
Tough call.
You did fine. These situations develop fast and unexpectedly.

In an after action review, one could note that "distance is your friend". Personally, strange people intent on getting close to me provoke me to be alert. My training is to first, if possible, run away. That means running (not walking) away, no matter how stupid it looks, because the "new friend" will not be prepared to deal with this at this stage in the game. If that is not possible, and danger/contact is imminent (you are grabbed, etc.), a reflexive (very fast!!!) kick to the kneecap or shin is in order (depending on how close you are). Then run like heck.

My old MA instructor used to drill into us that most folks got hurt because they were too embarrassed to RUN from trouble.

I think a modest repertoire of unarmed defensive skills (you don't have to be a match for Chuck Norris!!!) is very useful.
LApm9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2010, 08:44   #25
squirrelsniper
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Caneyville, KY
Posts: 98
I always try to keep in mind what my father told me "If you ever pull a weapon, you'd better be ready and willing to use it. Otherwise you may end up eating it."

Personally, I would have probably sprayed him with OC (AKA: pepper spray) when it became apparent he was a physical threat. If a weapon appeared on or about him, then things may have progressed differently.
__________________
Kalashnikov Klub #120

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire
squirrelsniper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 09:39   #26
Fly-n-hi
Senior Member
 
Fly-n-hi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 190
If I was kicking your ***** or getting ready to kick your ***** and you pulled a gun on me that would piss me off. How dare you keep me from being able to bust you up.
__________________
Glock 19, 38
S&W M&P .45 FS
Berreta 92FS
H&K USP 40 Compact
Ruger MkII, GP100, SP101

Last edited by Fly-n-hi; 03-15-2010 at 09:39..
Fly-n-hi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 11:17   #27
MacG22
CLM Number 213
Charter Lifetime Member
 
MacG22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 9,576
I am not an attorney. My comments are only my opinion, and represent conclusions I have made as a result of my own private research into CCW law and the applicable case law. For work I travel and as a result carry in multiple states... so I've had to do a lot of research and this is what I've come to believe about the specific situation you posed. I wanted my base CCW training to be consistent for the states I carried in (some strict, some relatively free), and not to have to be adapted on the fly depending on where I was, because I saw that as a dangerous situation for me, legally. The possibility of a mistake was high.

There are a few considerations here:

1. Was lethal force justified in your state? This is something you ought to know, RIGHT AWAY, by the time any altercation begins... no matter how quickly. You are not required, mid beating, to determine if the beating could possibly kill you or not. The biggest questions for many states is, "Could I get away or not?" If you could not run or get away--at any point of the escalation of the situation-- then you'll be safe for almost all states. Some do not require a person to flee first (as my state does not). Also, some states are iffy if the other person is not holding a weapon. If it's some sort of "tussle", lethal force may not yet be justified. If it is an attack or a beating, it will likely qualify so long as you did nothing to provoke it (as judged by witnesses and a jury).

2. Did you "see it coming"? Could you have walked away before it escalated? Did you do anything to provoke it ("get away from me, *******")?

3. If you were indeed ambushed, directly threatened ("I'm going to gut you, *******") and/or if you begin taking damage, you are most likely properly justified in using lethal force or the threat of lethal force. Fights are much quicker than most people know. Even if you "outmatch" your opponent by 150 lbs, if they place one good shot to your throat, head, or back of neck/head you can find yourself unconscious or the proud new owner of a permanent injury. And if you were rendered unconscious, while he's high on his adrenaline rush, even one stomp on your undefended body can cause critical injury or death. So if you end up in a fight, and if you believe the person intends to do you harm, and if you believe you are justified in the use/threat of lethal force, then I believe you should use it.

4. From my research and reading over the years, I've come to believe that you should not draw your weapon until you are READY and WILLING to use it, and until the moment when you WILL USE IT. Here's why:

a. Brandishing the weapon may have some value, but it has too many drawbacks. The threat of force may stop the attack, but it may also spin it wildly out of control. If the attacker is within 7 yards (which, if they aren't, you probably won't be justified in calling it an SD situation unless he has a gun or it is a hostage/holdup type of situation), then he can close that gap in less than a second or two and can take the weapon and use it against you much more quickly than people realize. This could also put bystanders at risk.

b. The only step before PRESENT and SHOOT that I've seen value in is to put the non gun hand out straight in a STOP! hand motion and to put the gun hand on the gun grip while in the holster. If possible this should happen concurrently with a strong, clear verbal warning, "STOP! I have a firearm and will defend myself if you attack!" Something clear, concise, and that will help clearly remind a jury that you provided a warning when witnesses are questioned.

c. When the gun is presented (let's say compressed ready extended to shooting position), that's the split second someone can turn to run or get the hell down. If not, then you should probably use your gun. Because, again, once it's out the whole world has changed for you already and whatever follows will happen lightening quick.


So to recap: I see only two ways that a wise person will use their weapon in an encounter. The first is to extend a warning hand (if possible) and to grip the gun in the holster while issuing a warning. This may be considered "threat of lethal force" in some states and should only be used if the situation qualifies. The other way is to draw the handgun with intent to fire it is the target does not instantly relent and if you have a proper backdrop for your shot.

Using the gun as a "warning" is dangerous and the CCW holder generally has the most to lose from that action. Using a gun to "cool someone down" is not really an approved legal use and is not well covered by state law. A gun is allowed to be used to dispel immanent lethal danger. By grabbing the grip and issuing a proper warning you are keeping the gun protected but WARNING him that you are about to use lawful force to defend yourself... you're not trying to use your gun as a negotiation tool (even something like "if you calm down I won't shoot you"). It's a delicate line but an important one if you read a lot of handgun/self defense case law.

As always, take my comments and interpret them only in light of your state's CCW laws and the case law that exists in your jurisdiction.
__________________
“Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, but I consider the capacity for it terrifying...--Kurt Vonnegut

Last edited by MacG22; 03-15-2010 at 11:21..
MacG22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 11:36   #28
Jdog
Senior Member
 
Jdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: wasatch range
Posts: 1,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorhugger View Post
On hindsight I think I should have shot the SOB.
I doubt you would be justified in court... depending on how liberal your state is you'll be a hero or a villain.
So you paralyze him for life (One of your hollowpoints logged in his spine) His relatives sue the crap out of you for medical damages and your legal fees bankrupt your butt.
So if you do really have to pop one in him, make sure it's lethal.
On the other hand a blackeye on both of you seems cheaper.
Jdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 17:46   #29
beatcop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 1,900
I don't mean to short change the the thread, but this has been addressed in quite a number of posts. The problem is that folks with actual training and experience are drowned out by the less informed.

You need a foundation of knowledge to build upon...read some Massad Ayoob books for starters. I find him to be pretty much spot on. If you want a different perspective, make a connection in local law enforcement and take a look at their training outlines or read their departmental use-of-force policies, they should be readily available.

Some trainers will work up some "one-liners" to simplify the concepts...maybe something like: Don't kill anyone over a fair fight. Sounds to simplistic? Think about it a little.

You may be within your rights, but end up screwed. The main question is "Do I HAVE to shoot", not "CAN I shoot".
beatcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 20:44   #30
Pierre!
NRA Life Member
 
Pierre!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lovin Sparks Nv!
Posts: 4,183
Well, I will pitch in my personal twist...

I have 3 disks collapsing in my neck and I am a surgery candidate.

Sharp blows to my face or body could cause me damage... as in complete disorientation, complete immobilization, and/or eliminate my ability to walk, run, or defend myself.

Learned this once when I fell on ice in the driveway and could not get up for 5 minutes....

I make distance quickly... and throw the change!!!

If they keep coming, then it's on Cuz...

I look completely normal, except my arms are rather skinny due to the inability to workout my upper body.

So be careful who you engage in a fight... you might loose everything you own if you swing on me unjustified! My wife can be wicked... ;v)

Your Thoughts?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Download YOUR copy of
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

My Gift to You, AND it's >FREE<

Last edited by Pierre!; 03-15-2010 at 20:45..
Pierre! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 22:47   #31
OldLincoln
Senior Member
 
OldLincoln's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 341
  1. My neck is a mess like Pierre! and a solid hit most likely would paralyze or kill me. The neurosurgeon refuses to operate saying it's to risky.
  2. Bad back also, so I cannot fight and I cannot run.
  3. My wife uses a walker, so if she's with me I probably won't do much hesitating.
That's why I carry. So if some BG wants to punch me out I don't have many options. Great if he listens to me and backs off, but I don't see I have much choice other than to shoot if attacked.

Does this mean I'll spend what's left of my life in some prison leaving my wife to fend for herself?
OldLincoln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 09:53   #32
beatcop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 1,900
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldLincoln View Post
  1. My neck is a mess like Pierre! and a solid hit most likely would paralyze or kill me. The neurosurgeon refuses to operate saying it's to risky.
  2. Bad back also, so I cannot fight and I cannot run.
  3. My wife uses a walker, so if she's with me I probably won't do much hesitating.
That's why I carry. So if some BG wants to punch me out I don't have many options. Great if he listens to me and backs off, but I don't see I have much choice other than to shoot if attacked.

Does this mean I'll spend what's left of my life in some prison leaving my wife to fend for herself?
Sounds like you/your doctor will be able to articulate that you have a specific condition & that a minor fist fight will result in serious physical injury on your part. You still may be obligated to retreat/attempt in your area...look into that aspect.
beatcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 17:00   #33
Bashful
Senior Member
 
Bashful's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Baytown, Texas
Posts: 143
To look at me, 6'1" and 235, it could be said by appearance that I can handle my own. However... I have a bad heart with a pacemaker/defibrillator. My endurance to fight is slim/none since my LEF is about 25% (normal is near 50).

I will avoid a confrontation at all costs... but when cornered, someones gonna spring some leaks.
__________________
M&P Shield
Sig P-238
... And others
Bashful is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 18:12   #34
TMG
Senior Member
 
TMG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Utah
Posts: 798
http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

This should help answer your question.
EK
__________________
Everyone has the will to win. Few train for it.
TMG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 21:10   #35
MilitantBEEMER
Senior Member
 
MilitantBEEMER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Pacific North West
Posts: 232
I am 6'5" and 200lbs. I look bigger than I am (mainly because of my height and abnormally large noggin) That being said I lack in upper body strength due to a heart problem. You would not know it by looking at me, nor do I feel it, in fact I just have doctor ordered weight lifting restrictions. Because of my heart condition I am also at risk from blows to upper body.
All that being said, for me lethal force would be the very last resort, I do all I can to avoid areas and situations that may arise.
If put in the situation I would not relish it, but would indeed defend my life and the life of those I love.
I pray and hope to never have to use my CCW.
__________________
"We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts . . . not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution."—Abraham Lincoln
MilitantBEEMER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 07:45   #36
Pierre!
NRA Life Member
 
Pierre!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lovin Sparks Nv!
Posts: 4,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMG View Post
http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

This should help answer your question.
EK
Nice Link TMG!

Some really good info in there... This is on my "periodic review till I Get It" list!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Download YOUR copy of
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

My Gift to You, AND it's >FREE<
Pierre! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 10:39   #37
beala
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 66
You can use deadly force if there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you have another option, take it. If you can run, then run. The more alternatives you try, the more likely the jury will side with you. If you're only options are a fistfight or deadly force, then it starts getting sticky. I think that would have to be judged on a case by case basis (I think it would mostly come down to if there was a disparity of force, etc).

Also, as someone else suggested, this is an excellent example of when pepper spray would have come in handy.

EDIT: So, to answer the question, I think the same rules apply for brandishing. Don't draw unless there's an imminent threat.

Last edited by beala; 03-17-2010 at 10:44..
beala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 12:21   #38
inthefrey
Moved on...
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,292
Question:
I carry SOB. (small of back)
Once I begin my retreat, and the BG is still persuing, Can I "flash" with hand-on and verbal command? (...something like, "I'm armed. I need you to stop advancing on me!)

Just curious here. Not saying that running is not the absolute BEST option.

Edit:
Just read the post about brandishing....
If the weapon is still out of sight, is an indication to the BG that you are armed the same as brandishing?

Last edited by inthefrey; 03-17-2010 at 12:24..
inthefrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 14:30   #39
beatcop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 1,900
^ It's the lesser of two evils...if you will have a loss of limb, eyesight, life, etc from a fistfight (medically obvious condition), then retreat...still not working? Going to be outrun? Show weapon and issue a verbal command, that's it. Further proof that a "sane attacker" would not continue an attack unless his intent was to cause harm/disarm.
beatcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 15:10   #40
dosei
Senior Member
 
dosei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 4,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by beala View Post
You can use deadly force if there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.
...and there is sufficient Disparity of Force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_xaTf5oqI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGJIyxm2s_M
(Disparity of Force is covered 4:05 into this video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNCRL9SN2QA
(...and continues thru this video...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJazmbDH7S8
(...and into this video)
__________________
Big Dawg No. 1431
Carolina Glocker No. 1431
"Freedom is a system based on courage" (Charles Peguy)
"Know where the attack against you is likely to come, whether on the street or in court, and have a proven counter already in place" (Mas Ayoob)

Last edited by dosei; 03-17-2010 at 15:35..
dosei is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:53.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 837
255 Members
582 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31