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Old 12-09-2009, 00:26   #1
7.62FMJ
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G20, factory length, 200gr at 1200FPS, Lowest Pressure

Looking to achieve 1200FPS with a 200gr from a factory length Glock 20 barrel and with the lowest pressure. I know you can push beyond this but am looking to keep to this as a consistency. I am running a 24lb spring w/LWD barrel. Would like to hear about your favorite loads to achieve this, easiest metering for consistency, and your results.


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Old 12-09-2009, 10:19   #2
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I use 8.5gr of Longshot over a CCI 350 primer to get +/- 200@1200, that wonderful 10mm formula. I don't know if it's the lowest pressure load for this or not. 800x is pretty forgiving in the pressure dept, but I have not worked up a load for this because is meters poorly. Though Longshot is a flake shotgun powder, it is "slick", and meters well.

Someone will come along and give you a #9 load, I'd imagine. I've always had pressure issues with #9, I don't know why, so I don't push it. But lots of guys, who have reloaded a long time and know what they are talking about, use it for just this load.

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Old 12-09-2009, 13:47   #3
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I got a friend locally who loads and I have the Glock set up for punishment. Just looking for a tried and true pet load that someone else has ventured. We plan on working it up. My G20 has an LWD barrel with a 22lb spring, now going to 24lb with this venture. We just want to try some different full house spec loads that maybe others have tried.

The AA#9 is what we thought of using but like you say, it is a high pressure game there. Just looking for something that would meter well in combination with building a viable round close to a 200gr at 1200FPS with a 5" barrel.
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Old 12-09-2009, 16:00   #4
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I have a load that averages 1205 fps (shot @ 15' from the chrony and not corrected to the muzzle) for the DT 200gr WFNGC Hardcast. I shoot that in a Gen 3 G20 with a 22# spring. This round is probably at max pressure +/- so work up cautiously. I see case expansion and primer conditions consistent with those of other max or near max loads.

Here is the data:

Case: New Starline
Primer: CCI 350
Powder: 13.8 gr A9
Projectile: Double Tap 200gr WFNGC Hardcast
COAL: 1.26"
medium-firm crimp

The same projectile with 800X only yielded about 1050 fps before excess pressure signs began to emerge. I believe that was with 8.0 gr of 800X.

A quick note of caution. There has been discussion about the safety of shooting hardcast loads from a stock Glock barrel. I have had good results, but I do not shoot many at a time and I keep my barrel clean. The Canyon Man posted recently (and many of you may have read his post) that he believes that lead buildup contributed to the G20 Ka-boom that he experienced last year. He stated that he had shot quite a few hardcast loads between cleanings. One factory Silvertip and... I'm sure you've seen the pictures. The bottom line, you might want to keep your cleaning kit handy if you choose to shoot these projectiles.
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Old 12-14-2009, 09:16   #5
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Loads that are safe with a GLock barrel will likely be too hot in a tighter LWD barrel...(As the GLock barrel has an extra thousandth of an inch of slop in all directions, some pressure is bled off simply expanding the case to fill the factory barrel's chamber; this situation does not occur with an LWD barrel)

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Old 12-14-2009, 10:09   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSgt Dotson View Post
Loads that are safe with a GLock barrel will likely be too hot in a tighter LWD barrel...(As the GLock barrel has an extra thousandth of an inch of slop in all directions, some pressure is bled off simply expanding the case to fill the factory barrel's chamber; this situation does not occur with an LWD barrel)
I'd say that's a bit of a stretch and probably the opposite is true. If anything the fully supported chamber on the LWD barrel allows much higher pressures than can be used on a stock Glock barrel. The LWD is also not so tight as to not allow any expansion, it does allow some- just not the slop found in the Glock stock barrel. We tested rounds side by side and the LWD barrel could definitely handle far hotter loads than the stock barrel.
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Old 12-14-2009, 11:22   #7
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I decided to go with Longshot, and have been pleased from the start that I did. My books recommend 8.2 as the max load, and although have not choreographed factory length barrel, with the 6" LW, I am achieving 1250 FPS. I would imagine the 1200 fps threshold is met with the standard length aftermarket LW barrel. One of the reasons I decided to go with Longshot, is velocity comparisons between powders, Longshot gave lower chamber pressures then the other powder varieties. It also meters quite nicely.

also,

I'd say that's a bit of a stretch and probably the opposite is true. If anything the fully supported chamber on the LWD barrel allows much higher pressures than can be used on a stock Glock barrel. The LWD is also not so tight as to not allow any expansion, it does allow some- just not the slop found in the Glock stock barrel. We tested rounds side by side and the LWD barrel could definitely handle far hotter loads than the stock barrel.

I agree wholeheartedly!
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:04   #8
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I haven't tried 200gr and Longshot yet, but I have tried to get around 1200 fps using 800x and the stock G20 barrel. I didn't get the velocity I was wanting and the brass was beginning to bulge pretty badly. I've not tried AA #9 yet either.

Let me add, 9grs on 800x averaged 1182 from the G20, but as I said above, brass was a bit bulgy for my liking.
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Old 12-14-2009, 13:16   #9
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I haven't tried 200gr and Longshot yet, but I have tried to get around 1200 fps using 800x and the stock G20 barrel. I didn't get the velocity I was wanting and the brass was beginning to bulge pretty badly. I've not tried AA #9 yet either.

Let me add, 9grs on 800x averaged 1182 from the G20, but as I said above, brass was a bit bulgy for my liking.

That is why you have to use an aftermarket barrel. The stock Glock barrels are poorly made for full spec 10mm, .357 SIG, or .40 S&W. Hence their reputation for KaBoom!!! I was running a LWD barrel with a 24lb spring and was able to step up at least another 10% on the power band to full spec 10mm loads before showing signs of pressure found with the stock barrel.

I tried one relatively mild load with my stock barrel and was showing signs of pressure.

Maxed to the 9.5gr vv 3N38 with a stock barrel and had some smileys stepped up into 10gr of vv 3N38 with the aftermarket tuned LWD set up and feel it could handle another grain. Was getting around 1185FPS average out of a stock barrel pushing the 200 grainers, many over 1200FPS.
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Old 12-14-2009, 15:15   #10
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Good deal, I do have a LWD barrel for the G20, but I like to see what the stock barrel can do. I'll have to say, the newer .40's have pretty good chamber support.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:38   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7.62FMJ View Post
I'd say that's a bit of a stretch and probably the opposite is true. If anything the fully supported chamber on the LWD barrel allows much higher pressures than can be used on a stock Glock barrel. The LWD is also not so tight as to not allow any expansion, it does allow some- just not the slop found in the Glock stock barrel. We tested rounds side by side and the LWD barrel could definitely handle far hotter loads than the stock barrel.
I'm not discussing the factory bbl's 6 oclock support, or the ability of either bbl to contain normal Ten mm 35k psi pressures...

There have been a few posters using max loads with Longshot or 800x (loads safe in GLock bbl) that then experienced blown/ruptured primers with the LWD bbl...

The pressure will be higher in a tighter LWD bbl, with no pressure being 'wasted' expanding the brass to fit the factory bbl's generous dimensions.

For those of you already at max charges, feel free of course to use the LWD bbl without any charge reduction if you wish..
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:35   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSgt Dotson View Post
Loads that are safe with a GLock barrel will likely be too hot in a tighter LWD barrel...(As the GLock barrel has an extra thousandth of an inch of slop in all directions, some pressure is bled off simply expanding the case to fill the factory barrel's chamber; this situation does not occur with an LWD barrel)
Not even close to being accurate...WAY more than 1/1000" tolerance relative to a fully supported barrel, and because the case is not as well supported on the stock barrel, the brass does not last as long (you are correct about the pressure expanding the case alright), because it is stretched more - and the bullets do not move out to their intended velocities.

Fully supported barrels can withstand MUCH higher loads than stock barrels - as everyone who has had both and reloads has experienced.
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:42   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSgt Dotson View Post
I'm not discussing the factory bbl's 6 oclock support, or the ability of either bbl to contain normal Ten mm 35k psi pressures...

There have been a few posters using max loads with Longshot or 800x (loads safe in GLock bbl) that then experienced blown/ruptured primers with the LWD bbl...

The pressure will be higher in a tighter LWD bbl, with no pressure being 'wasted' expanding the brass to fit the factory bbl's generous dimensions.

For those of you already at max charges, feel free of course to use the LWD bbl without any charge reduction if you wish..
I'd suggest you have a second look at the numbers on this reloading forum as well as read the words on several reloading guides that specifically say "these loads are meant for fully supported chambers" and warn against trying the loads on "certain firearms" (e.g. this means Glocks) that don't include fully supported chambers in their barrels.
All of the information I've EVER read CONTRADICTS what you are stating (except the case expansion issue).

O.P.:

As for 1200 fps/200xtp, I've got to believe based on what I have read that the 2 best choices of powders to run are going to be #9 (which you said you don't want to use) or 800x.

Have a very close look at the published data above in the different mfgr. powders - I know you've already been there 'cause I saw your post (I'm checking this forum quite often) - keep looking. The answer is in the text.

Ignore anyone attempting you tell you that a stock barrel is better - I think we all know that's a load of horse poo.
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Old 12-16-2009, 19:33   #14
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Ignore anyone attempting you tell you that a stock barrel is better - I think we all know that's a load of horse poo.
I won't ague that one is "better." Because one should select the appropriate setup according to one's needs, but let's not toss out the stock barrel as a load of horse poo. Glock engineers are not dumb and they designed their barrel with certain priorities in mind. There are a number of positives about the Glock barrel that come to mind. Here is my short list.

1) My single top priority is having a weapon that I can rely on. My stock barrel has yet to have a failure to feed or extract. Not once in thousands of rounds. GT is peppered with questions about how to get load X to feed right in aftermarket barrel Y. I have no such issues. Some folks do have great results with aftermarket barrels, but I doubt that I could improve feeding reliability with the tighter clearances of a "fully-supported" chamber. One may get great feeding results with an aftermarket barrel, and one may approach the reliability of a Glock barrel - but I doubt that I could improve on my perfect results.

2) You mentioned in an earlier post that velocities are wasted in energies used to expand the case. While that may be the case, my emperical ovservations lead me to conclude that the factory barrel is effecient in terms of velocities. My chronied results for handloads exceed the velocities of those in published manuals - usually significantly. Component manufacturers typically use test firearms with traditional barrels that are marginally longer than the Glock, yet I get faster velocities. So there may be some logic to polygonal rifling. Want to shoot a bunch of lead? Well there may be a trade-off. I don't, so non-issue.

I have shot thousands of max and near-max loads without excess case bulging or other troubling symptoms. I am not a believer that if one chooses to shoot DT, BB, or handloads within published guidelines; that an aftermarket barrel is a requirement. To read some posts, you'd think that one round of Double Tap in a stock barrel and... hand grenade. It is hard to imagine that Glock would knowingly design a barrel that was unsafe to shoot factory-spec loads. It is hard to imagine that Mike McNett would make a living selling 10mm loads to G20 owners without a disclaimer if he felt them to be unsafe in your G29.

I understand that you are recently getting into loading for 10mm and have been considering an aftermarket barrel for your G29, so your results may vary. I would never advise slapping a "fully supported" barrel into your G29 and feeling that it is now safe to go nuclear. I would not exceed 37,500 psi - even with a "fully-supported" barrel.

The argument for me distills down to this. I don't feel deprived of chamber support so the flawless feeding, reasonable accuracy, and demonstrable velocities of the stock barrel have won me over.
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Old 12-16-2009, 19:36   #15
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Quick note to the OP: for those who still have some Speer 200 gr TMJs laying around, Accurate has some older data listing that projectile over A9 at 1200 fps. It can be found in Loadbooks. I'm pretty sure that projectile has been discontinued though. If anyone wants the recipe, I can look it up.
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Old 12-18-2009, 20:14   #16
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All of the information I've EVER read CONTRADICTS what you are stating (except the case expansion issue).

.
No one said the stock bbl is 'better' for max loads...; it isn't.

No one said the LWD bbl does not have better case support. (It does)

What i said was, or implied, that some max loads that are safe in even a glock bbl may result in blown/ruptured PRIMERS in a tighter LWD bbl...

SInce the case can't fireform to the larger Glock chamber dimensions, obviously pressures will be higher just after ignition with a smaller match grade chamber....

Oddly enough, this may result in blown out primers. Typically, better velocity can be clocked out of the LWD bbl with a few tenths less powder.

The case or barrel containing the peak pressure are not the only issues;the primer /primer pocket must also contain these pressures.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:45   #17
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Quick note to the OP: for those who still have some Speer 200 gr TMJs laying around, Accurate has some older data listing that projectile over A9 at 1200 fps. It can be found in Loadbooks. I'm pretty sure that projectile has been discontinued though. If anyone wants the recipe, I can look it up.

If you don't mind, please look it up and post back here. All the newer load data is basically .40 +P.
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Old 12-21-2009, 21:28   #18
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If you don't mind, please look it up and post back here. All the newer load data is basically .40 +P.
Here is The Accurate Powders' recipe found in Loadbooks:

Projectile: SPR 200 TMJ
Primer: CCI 300
Case: HDY
Barrel length: 5"
COAL: 1.25"
Powder: A9
Starting load: 12.2 gr @ 1056 fps
Max load: 13.5 gr @ 1200 fps; pressure: 36,300 psi

This load is not part of the current data issued by AA. I imagine it is because this projectile has been discontinued.

It seems like the "bonded" Speer bullets obturate with a bit less pressure for a given charge than others, so this might be a bit hot for some other 200 gr bullets. AA lists a max charge for the 200 gr XTP as one grain less @ 12.5 gr. (1170 fps).
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:56   #19
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No one said the stock bbl is 'better' for max loads...; it isn't.

No one said the LWD bbl does not have better case support. (It does)

What i said was, or implied, that some max loads that are safe in even a glock bbl may result in blown/ruptured PRIMERS in a tighter LWD bbl...

SInce the case can't fireform to the larger Glock chamber dimensions, obviously pressures will be higher just after ignition with a smaller match grade chamber....

Oddly enough, this may result in blown out primers. Typically, better velocity can be clocked out of the LWD bbl with a few tenths less powder.

The case or barrel containing the peak pressure are not the only issues;the primer /primer pocket must also contain these pressures.


Your entire argument for coming here, ****ting on my thread to somehow show that a stock barrel is superior to an aftermarket barrel when we are discussing load data, is pointless. Everyone on this forum will disagree with you, and these are individuals who actually load ammo and test proof loads that cannot be tolerated in a stock configuration. Sure there are some of us who load specifically for stock barrel configurations but most of us are past this. A stock Glock barrel cannot handle the same pressures as a LWD, KKM, Storm Lake or any other barrel with a fully supported chamber. Saying otherwise is reckless and outright stupid, as this is the 10mm reloading forum, where someone could actually believe you and get themselves hurt- I mean seriously hurt. Second, the dimensional differences of a stock Glock barrel vs an aftermarket barrel are minimal at best, so this crap about primers blowing out prematurely on an aftermarket barrel versus a stock Glock barrel- is again reckless. I'm not sure what your motivation is, or if you simply just talk out your ass, but some of us have actually tested high pressure loads and clearly know that pushing a stock barrel with anything close to full Norma spec is asking for problems. Please go troll someplace else.


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Old 12-22-2009, 06:01   #20
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Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Here is The Accurate Powders' recipe found in Loadbooks:

Projectile: SPR 200 TMJ
Primer: CCI 300
Case: HDY
Barrel length: 5"
COAL: 1.25"
Powder: A9
Starting load: 12.2 gr @ 1056 fps
Max load: 13.5 gr @ 1200 fps; pressure: 36,300 psi

This load is not part of the current data issued by AA. I imagine it is because this projectile has been discontinued.

It seems like the "bonded" Speer bullets obturate with a bit less pressure for a given charge than others, so this might be a bit hot for some other 200 gr bullets. AA lists a max charge for the 200 gr XTP as one grain less @ 12.5 gr. (1170 fps).

The 12.5gr for XTP is what I'm looking to run with the AA# 9 may push it up to around 12.8 or even 13 to see what kind of pressure specs I'm getting. I'd be happy with 1170 out of a stock length configuration but since the specs are likely for a 5" barrel, then the 12.5 might be pushed a little. We're using 200gr HAP bullets, similiar to the XTP enough that it shouldn't make a difference. Nice part, having the chronograph in the next room next to the reloading bench, load up 5 rounds, take an average, check for pressure, then load 5 more- in a matter of minutes.
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