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Old 03-18-2010, 22:36   #1
DeltaBravo
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When and if to pull...

Situation:

Getting gas at a gas station on I-24 in Tennesee. 22yr old male exits vehicle and begins pumping. Individual is a CCW holder and returns nozzle to pump then goes inside with young female passenger to use the facilities and buy a drink for both. Upon return to vehicle young man notices a domestic dispute near a car on the other side of the lot. Older man appears to be drunk and beating woman with him. First instinct is to call 911 and report situation but not hanging up. It is observed that the man is not stopping the assault. Concerned for the woman's safety you tell the young woman with you to stay in the vehicle and stay on the phone with the police. She locks the doors. Young man stays near vehicle and issues verbal command to cease and that the police have been notified and are on the way. Enraged the older man starts to walk toward you when you notice a hand reach to the small of his back. You immediately start making side steps to draw attention away from your vehicle and other pedestrians. You yell for the man to stop where he is to no avail. As he advances further and is issuing verbal threats you begin to reach for (but not pull) your concealed weapon. The man is not stopping. He draws a weapon and begins to sight you in. At this point what would the consensus be? You are clear of other people and vehicles, the police have not arrived yet. Are you cleared to open fire since you fear for your own personal safety and the man appears to be have the worst intent?

*Situation is hypothetical and yes most likely beaten to death. It is intended to see what the consensus is among good hearted, common sensed, civilian sheep dogs*

Last edited by DeltaBravo; 03-19-2010 at 00:10..
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Old 03-18-2010, 23:37   #2
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Why would you think not?
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Old 03-18-2010, 23:40   #3
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Why would you think not?
Because you initiated your own involvement in the situation, thereby inviting trouble. Just a thought
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Old 03-18-2010, 23:44   #4
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Originally Posted by DeltaBravo View Post
Because you initiated your own involvement in the situation, thereby inviting trouble. Just a thought
So, you let the guy shoot you?
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Old 03-18-2010, 23:55   #5
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There's a pattern emerging here. I pray I'm wrong.

Lesson #1, stay the hell out of domestics. I got in the middle of one once. Unless a gun comes out or someone loses consciousness and the beating continues, it won't happen again.

#2, and far more critical, if you're asking if its appropriate to draw and engage an individual who is raising a firearm to engage you, you have no business carrying a concealed firearm in the first place, because you are not mentally prepared to deploy it effectively. It is time to seek training out from a real live human who is qualified to teach defensive tactics, and take a class from them before strapping on a firearm again.

This is not meant to be personal, but you've got a whopping 24 posts here, yet you've squarely zeroed in two of the situations that are known to stir the pot really bad, really fast, and you've done in within a few minutes in consecutive posts. That's probably not a good idea if you want people to respond civilly. Just a fair piece of advice.
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Old 03-18-2010, 23:55   #6
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So, you let the guy shoot you?
Never said that. Just speculating. We're it I, I would most likely not involve myself past calling the police. Only if he initiated offensive action in my direction would I consider escalation of force. And to add something I left out, yes I would defend myself. When I asked if you are cleared, I simply meant are you legally protected since it WAS YOU who stepped into an already bad situation. I would venture a guess no.

Last edited by DeltaBravo; 03-19-2010 at 00:06..
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Old 03-18-2010, 23:56   #7
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Shoot him. This is simple. He is pointing a gun at you.
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Old 03-19-2010, 00:01   #8
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Originally Posted by degoodman View Post
There's a pattern emerging here. I pray I'm wrong.

This is not meant to be personal, but you've got a whopping 24 posts here, yet you've squarely zeroed in two of the situations that are known to stir the pot really bad, really fast, and you've done in within a few minutes in consecutive posts. That's probably not a good idea if you want people to respond civilly. Just a fair piece of advice.
Fair enough. And good advice thus far. However, do not assume that 24 posts here indicates either inexperience or ignorance. First, this is not the only forum I frequent, it is simply the newest membership. Second, my whole purpose in asking these HYPOTHETICAL questions is to test the waters of a different group of individuals and see what the group dynamic/group think are. I am not fishing for answers I want to hear, nor am I looking to get off on a justifiable situation to engage. When it comes to firearms and carrying I demand nothing less than discernment and practical common sense (within legal boundaries). Satisfied?

Last edited by DeltaBravo; 03-19-2010 at 00:11..
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Old 03-19-2010, 00:40   #9
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In my opinion when he started advancing on you and not responding to your commands to stop you had every right to draw your weapon. He was acting aggressive and you had a legitimate fear for your safety. If he continued to advance and draw his own weapon you had every legal right to defend yourself.

Remember drawing your weapon is not the issue firing your weapon is the issue. Many times the simple act of bringing the gun out could diffuse the situation. Any man that still comes at you once your gun is out has nothing but bad intentions.
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:31   #10
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Originally Posted by DeltaBravo View Post
Never said that. Just speculating. We're it I, I would most likely not involve myself past calling the police. Only if he initiated offensive action in my direction would I consider escalation of force. And to add something I left out, yes I would defend myself. When I asked if you are cleared, I simply meant are you legally protected since it WAS YOU who stepped into an already bad situation. I would venture a guess no.
Well DB, I don't think that hollering at a guy to stop beating a woman is the wrong thing to do. By your scenario the BG DID initiate offensive action by point a gun at you, which was certainly not justified because you were yelling at him.
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Old 03-19-2010, 07:06   #11
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**BANG BANG BANG** He's pointing a gun at you!!!

Oh, I forgot.
If threat still exists, **BANG BANG BANG**
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:45   #12
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First mistake was not drawing prior to him pulling his weapon. You should have already had pistol out and ready as soon as he stopped responding to commands and coming after you. The other act of reaching with his hands for a possible weapon is enough justification to say you were in fear for your life and the threat needed to be stopped.
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:46   #13
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If he's just beating the woman and not using the gun, call 911 and be a good witness. Take some pictures but do not get involved unless it spills over.

For the second part, once he starts drawing, so am I.
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:59   #14
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I can't sit by and watch a lady get hit by a man, which may constitute a disparity of force, this is no longer a dispute, it's now an assault. Still, he draws to me, he gets shot.
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Old 03-19-2010, 09:53   #15
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Quote:
from degoodman:
Lesson #1, stay the hell out of domestics. I got in the middle of one once. Unless a gun comes out or someone loses consciousness and the beating continues, it won't happen again.
Plus 1. Why so many folks are so eager to personally get themselves involved in so many things that they really should stay out of is beyond me.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:08   #16
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1. I would decide to get involved depending on how hard he was hitting her. If it looks like they are going to be legitimately injured, I would intervene.

2. If I did in fact intervene, I would probably already have my gun ready and moved into a coat pocket or at least be mentally prepared to draw as fast as possible. I did not physically threaten him so he had no right to charge towards me or draw a weapon. That means that he's the one being offensive and I would have to defend myself.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:30   #17
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I think it is very amusing that the post was a projective psychological test to see how nutty Glock Talk members are.

Next time can we have ink blots? Doc, I see someone with a 1911 intervening in an alien attack.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:44   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaBravo View Post
Fair enough. And good advice thus far. However, do not assume that 24 posts here indicates either inexperience or ignorance. First, this is not the only forum I frequent, it is simply the newest membership. Second, my whole purpose in asking these HYPOTHETICAL questions is to test the waters of a different group of individuals and see what the group dynamic/group think are. I am not fishing for answers I want to hear, nor am I looking to get off on a justifiable situation to engage. When it comes to firearms and carrying I demand nothing less than discernment and practical common sense (within legal boundaries). Satisfied?
Good enough for me. And now I'll pull out the "Why" on whether or not I'll involve myself in a domestic ever again unless I think someone is about to die.

I fortunately found the post from a few years back so I don't have to retype much. From the thread http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=904871

Quote:
Another one was at a walmart, where a dude and his wife were having a domestic in the parking lot. He was yelling at her really good, and at this point I would have let securitas handle him when they got around, but then he hauled off and backhanded her hard enough to knock her down. I yelled a quick "HEY!" over at him as my wife called 911. Well, he immediately locks eyes on me and starts walking over. I moved to meet him because I wanted my wife out of the action, but it was clearly evident that he was coming over and that he meant to have a piece of me next. When he's about a row of cars over, I had stopped to be able to keep cars between us if he came up with anything serious, I told him to just get out of here, the cops were on their way, and that I really didn't feel like getting into it with him any farther. This didn't impress him, and he kept coming.

I sprayed him over the trunk of a parked car. He was clearly effected, but I was not close enough to him when I initially sprayed him to paint him really good. He kinda went down on the ground on one knee, so I moved around the car so I could see him, because at this point I felt like leaving before the cops got there would have been a mistake, so I needed to know he was down. He did start to get up once, but that time I painted him a little more and gave him a quick shot in the ribs to discourage him doing that any more.

It took the cops about 5 minutes to get there, and when they got there, I backed up off of him with my hands kinda up and out so they knew I wasn't the probblem here. They cuffed him up at which point the fun started. #1 as soon as he was in bracelets, he gets really really mouthy, how he's going to eff-me-up and all that stuff, how I attacked him, bla bla bla. Then his old lady comes over, with her freshly acquired shiner and all, and starts in on the whole "big misunderstanding" thing, he really wasn't doing anything, I started it with him first and on and on. At one point I think she actually asserted that she fell and hit a car and that he didn't hit her at all. Is is a bad sign, however, when the cops knew both party's first names?

They ended up taking them both, her on warrants and violating a protective order he had against her, and him for the fresh domestic and for violating a PO she had against him. The cops did warm me that he may try and be a dick and file for a TPO or try and file charges against me for getting involved, but that if he did that, the prosecutor was very on-board with countering his moves, and that they'd do everything they could to minimize the inconvenience to me if he started monkeying around. Fortunately, he never did
The presented hypothetical is already well past that point. The BG is approaching you, and you've mentioned a hand to the small of the back. Given the whole "totality of circumstances," he's probably not looking to give you a business card from his wallet, so in addition to movement to cover or to create distance, I would definitely get a hand on my weapon, if not draw it depending on the statutes in play where you are. In Ohio, and based on my training including some provided by certified LE Instructors in Ohio, I would have a firearm in hand at that point. Furtive movements is a subject of broad debate, and alone probably do not justify a use of lethal force, but drawing a firearm as a preparatory response is NOT a use of deadly force. Know if that is the case in your jurisdiction before you act.

When he went on to produce a weapon and further began to raise it in my direction, lethal force would be applied until that threat is removed. As far as specific tactics to deploy, we need to keep in mind it is more important to not get shot than it is to shoot, so if I wasn't already behind cover, I'm thinking to haul the mail to get to some, etc., but you are definitely in a lethal force encounter and need to be responding accordingly. All of the critical elements of the AOJ triangle have been met, and he has further committed overt acts that indicate his intention to visit great bodliy injury or death on you. If this isn't the time to initiate a lethal force response, I don't know what is.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:00   #19
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Good enough for me. And now I'll pull out the "Why" on whether or not I'll involve myself in a domestic ever again unless I think someone is about to die.

I fortunately found the post from a few years back so I don't have to retype much. From the thread http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=904871



The presented hypothetical is already well past that point. The BG is approaching you, and you've mentioned a hand to the small of the back. Given the whole "totality of circumstances," he's probably not looking to give you a business card from his wallet, so in addition to movement to cover or to create distance, I would definitely get a hand on my weapon, if not draw it depending on the statutes in play where you are. In Ohio, and based on my training including some provided by certified LE Instructors in Ohio, I would have a firearm in hand at that point. Furtive movements is a subject of broad debate, and alone probably do not justify a use of lethal force, but drawing a firearm as a preparatory response is NOT a use of deadly force. Know if that is the case in your jurisdiction before you act.

When he went on to produce a weapon and further began to raise it in my direction, lethal force would be applied until that threat is removed. As far as specific tactics to deploy, we need to keep in mind it is more important to not get shot than it is to shoot, so if I wasn't already behind cover, I'm thinking to haul the mail to get to some, etc., but you are definitely in a lethal force encounter and need to be responding accordingly. All of the critical elements of the AOJ triangle have been met, and he has further committed overt acts that indicate his intention to visit great bodliy injury or death on you. If this isn't the time to initiate a lethal force response, I don't know what is.
Roger that. Very good read. Thanks
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:02   #20
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I think it is very amusing that the post was a projective psychological test to see how nutty Glock Talk members are.
You said nutty. Not me. In fact, you are the first to apply that label that I have yet seen. Different forums, different patrons, different cultures. Since when is it odd to pose a question and simply listen?
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