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Old 01-09-2015, 18:57   #1
gotplastic
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Knife to a Gun Fight

3 Pics. Two show the French National Police responding to Terrorists who are armed with AKs and 30 rnd mags, and one shows Mass PD doing the same. Hope the French dont ever decide to raid my house


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Old 01-09-2015, 19:13   #2
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They got the job done.
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Old 01-09-2015, 20:13   #3
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They got the job done.
Really? Four hostages got killed in the process. And in the initial attack, the first 3 "Police" officers turned and fled the scene when they realized the attackers were armed. Not sure I'd credit them with getting the job done.
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Old 01-10-2015, 11:26   #4
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One SKILLED man with an M1 Carbine could drop a bunch of lead spraying ak-idiots in about 2 seconds with 2 shots.
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Old 01-10-2015, 11:32   #5
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Knife to a Gun Fight

Those are Mini14s not M1 Carbines. A Mini is definitely a formidable defense against AKs


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Old 01-10-2015, 21:33   #6
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Those are Mini14s not M1 Carbines. A Mini is definitely a formidable defense against AKs


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The M1 Carbine would be even better….
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:04   #7
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The Mini14 wouldnt be my first choice, but its far from a bad gun. Semi auto and plenty of mag capacity, it can stop a terrorist just as well as an AR15 would.
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Old 01-14-2015, 09:51   #8
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Body armor and .223 rifles.


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Old 01-14-2015, 10:10   #9
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The real question is what was did the police department budget in France versus the american one? I suspect the point of diminishing returns in absolute on the ground effectiveness was reached long ago by the latter department.
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Old 01-14-2015, 17:52   #10
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Originally Posted by gotplastic View Post
Really? Four hostages got killed in the process. And in the initial attack, the first 3 "Police" officers turned and fled the scene when they realized the attackers were armed. Not sure I'd credit them with getting the job done.
Images released today show that ALL 4 hostages were killed by the gunman in the initial attack, BEFORE the police even arrived on the scene.

So it sounds like the cops actually DID do a good job!
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Old 01-14-2015, 19:43   #11
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Jason: The policing concept is totally different.

The National Police (French: Police nationale), formerly the Sûreté nationale, is one of two national police forces and the main civil law enforcement agency of France, with primary jurisdiction in cities and large towns. The other main agency is the military Gendarmerie, with primary jurisdiction in smaller towns and rural and border areas. The National Police comes under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of the Interior and has about 145,699 employees (in April 2008).

The Municipal Police (French: Police Municipale) are the local police of towns and cities in France.

There are 18,000 municipal police officers in 3,500 communities. The Municipal Police are one of the three components of French policing, alongside the National Police and the National Gendarmerie, with about 145,000 police and 98,000 soldiers respectively.

The implication of another comment was that the police turned and ran. The first reports were that those officers were unarmed.

Tonight the movie is BlackHawk Done. Want better information for your survival? Then read the book. Want still better information, read the online military doctors forum review of the action discussing wounds, rounds, what gear should be on a raid like that.

After a few months, read the after action reviews of this series of incidents. You will learn a lot more than just speculating on weapons and tactics.

And when you think that the French are wimps, do some research. As recently as demonstrations in the early 1960s, demonstrators were being arrested, taken to the main police station and executed outdoors. https://www.google.com/search?q=1961...utf-8&oe=utf-8
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Old 01-14-2015, 19:47   #12
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So it sounds like the cops actually DID do a good job!
Just curious how you figure that ? In my view, there were 5 police at the initial incident. 2 police were killed. 10 victims were killed. 0 terrorists were killed. 3 police fled the scene without discharging their weapons. All terrorists escaped, eventually leading to the 4 hostages being killed.

I grant you, the police at the initial scene were heavily out-gunned.

(and i haven't tracked what happened to the wounded, so not sure if my numbers are off by 1 or 2)

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Old 01-14-2015, 20:03   #13
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http://www.mediaite.com/tv/new-video...-paris-police/

Interesting video. Police car blocks escaping terrorists. No officer exits vehicle or discharges weapon, Police reverse to allow terrorists to escape - and then go on to further kill hostages. I think in just about every US city our police would have at least attempted to stop them (fire a shot) before retreating. At least ram their car after they drive by and try to slow them down!
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Old 01-14-2015, 23:15   #14
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Paris police officers have the option of carrying firearms, though many choose not to.

Gotplastic : Please provide was a citation that 3 policemen ran away without discharging their weapons. I cannot find a news account stating the same. Thank you
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Old 01-15-2015, 07:40   #15
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It should be noted that the French Police in the first photo and most of them seen on TV are CRS which is the French police reserve. Their duties typically are crowd and riot control and in this case were manning perimeter positions. They, prison guards and border patrol are armed with the French version of the Mini 14 of which there are at least 4 variations. Some of those are full auto, some not.

Even in the US the farther away from the scene of a incident the less geared up the police will be.
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Old 01-15-2015, 20:50   #16
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Paris police officers have the option of carrying firearms, though many choose not to.

Gotplastic : Please provide was a citation that 3 policemen ran away without discharging their weapons. I cannot find a news account stating the same. Thank you
"Three policemen arrived by push bike, but they left naturally as the attackers were armed," he said.

From Fox; there was also one from cnn as things were breaking saying at least some of them were armed. The months I spent in France (Paris/Chantilly) most of the police i encountered were armed, and not just the Gendarmes
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Old 01-18-2015, 19:27   #17
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The French just got a wake up call similar to what Americans experienced with the Columbine massacre. As a result of Columbine, "Active Shooter Response" training was mandated for US law enforcement, and the French are now ramping up their response system as a result of the recent Paris attacks. Unfortunately, in both cases, a tragedy caught LE officers unprepared.
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Old 01-18-2015, 20:26   #18
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Responding to an Active Shooter is a three-hour online course available to law enforcement officers through the FLETC’s online campus. The course introduces strategies that prepare officers for deadly force encounters, appropriate responses for static and dynamic tactical situations, and tactics for rapid deployment.

States or various departments may request or require “active shooter”training of some or all officers. Usually, it is for situations like schools. Otherwise, I would assume that most police officers are not Barney Fife characters. I am unaware of any United States federal mandate that all police officers receive such training.

The French were not asleep. Like “Americans”, their police agencies have budgets and limitations. Politically, police agencies are pulled in different directions.

Los Angeles. Had a specific crowd control police unit that was trained. Someone had the bright idea that the organization was no longer needed and stopped the training. As a result, in provocative demonstration, newspaper reporters were struck by the police and a number of lawsuits followed.

Recently, Los Angeles discovered (probably to no one's surprise) that crime statistics were being cooked to make it appear that serious crime was decreasing.

Now, a new administration has a fantastic program. There will be a specialized unit at every precinct to respond to domestic violence. Of course no one new is hired. This new brain storm is piled on top of neighborhood watch, dedicated precinct officers, running the DNA tests of rape kits that have been piled up for years.

We do have a specialized ticket force called the Metro Squad. Using motorcycles and police cars, the unit is sent to specific areas of the city on a rotation. The illusion created by this saturation is that the police are actively ticketing every where. Each precinct also conducts its own special operations. As a result, there is sometimes only one unassigned officer in a vehicle in a precinct.

In France, there have been always special police, armed with submachines at the airports, at tourist locations and so forth. Conversely, some officers are allowed to elect whether they carry firearms.

When we have the next attack in London (where the general police are unarmed on the streets) then it will be said that the Brits have now had a wake up call, I guess.

When I see a photograph of 4 French policemen walking together at the base of the Effie Tower, I wonder who pays the bill. Is that really an effective use of manpower or is it a political statement?
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Old 01-19-2015, 03:04   #19
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Show of force,whether politics/or a screw you attitude is dominant.The French got a rude awakening,I pray they learn from it.'08.
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Old 01-19-2015, 19:44   #20
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We should all be LESS concerned about what French police DON'T have, and way way more concerned about what US police DO have.
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