GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-22-2010, 09:32   #181
tc556guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 4,774
Send a message via ICQ to tc556guy Send a message via Yahoo to tc556guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Not when they get more from the government than they put in. Not when they get EITC. They are not paying their fair share. Every citizen should be responsible for supporting the government in the same manner. Why should one citizen get a free ride?
Who decides what is a fair share? We all, if you sat down and figured it out, benefit from government programs far more than we individually pay in, from the food on our shelves to the medicines in our hospitals to the roads we drive on, etc etc etc. None of us is paying more than the benefits we individually enjoy from the various programs and agencies that our tax dollars fund.
Edit:
I agree that everyone should contribute to the running of government. The reality is that for the lowest socio-economic classes, they don't have the ability to contribute at levels equal to the higher-paid classes of society. How are you going to tell a guy scrapping by on 10K-15K a year that he has to cough up even 15 % of that.
__________________
*Post contains personal opinion and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*

Last edited by tc556guy; 04-22-2010 at 09:38..
tc556guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 09:35   #182
tc556guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 4,774
Send a message via ICQ to tc556guy Send a message via Yahoo to tc556guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
It really doesn't matter what you consider yourself. Based on what you type here I don't think you're informed enough to label your political views properly.

If you expouse marxist/progressive views, you can call them whatever you like. It doesn't change the fact that they are marxist progressive views. And if you believe the things you post, well, that makes you a marxist progressive whether you want to admit it or not.
I'd say that you've simply developed such a skewed definition of the term that you are able to throw it out there to try to stick it on anyone whose views you disagree with. I believe you label yourself a "conservative" in such a way that your definition of the term and your concept of government is so narrow that it couldn't function in a modern world.
__________________
*Post contains personal opinion and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
tc556guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 09:43   #183
Omaha-BeenGlockin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: U.S.S.A.
Posts: 1,254
Whoa---I go away from this thread for a awhile and now I'm just speachless.

To you Marxist/Liberals out there--you REALLY need to get a formal education in Economics.

I won't say you're stupid--but very ignorant. Thats all I have to say.
__________________
Weve taken care of everything. The words you hear the songs you sing. The pictures that give pleasure to your eyes. Its one for all and all for one. We work together common sons. Never need to wonder how or why. Obama/Hillary---originally written by Neil Peart
Omaha-BeenGlockin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 09:43   #184
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Caught in the Middle
Posts: 42,003


Quote:
Originally Posted by tc556guy View Post
The thing about "redistribution" is that it makes it sound like that money is being taken from one person and given to another. Taxes go for more than social programs; they go for government services and fuctions that we ALL benefit from. The people in the higher tax brackets are still paying for government services and functions that ALL of society benefits from, themselves included. They simply pay a slightly higher per centage than the guy on the lower bracket.
As for the pie chart, the last I'd heard, income tax only accounted for a third. Its still not EVERY tax being paid, and most other Americans pay all sorts of taxes in their daily lives. They ARE taxpayers.
Since at least 1950 it has been north of 40% from income taxes. I don't know how old you are but perhaps you heard it in the 1940s.

When one person gets to live in this country without paying their fair share, someone else has to pay their way. That is redistribution.

If the government makes one person pay for another's grocery bill it is no different than that person paying for the other's "government" bill.

Name some of these federal government services and programs we all benefit from.

54% of the federal budget is mandatory spending. Mandatory spending IS social programs. 54% is redistributive.

You really need to do some research and get yourself informed so that you can form an educated opinion.
__________________
Im for law and order, the way that it should be. This songs about the night they spent protecting you from me. - Waylon Jennings
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 09:45   #185
tc556guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 4,774
Send a message via ICQ to tc556guy Send a message via Yahoo to tc556guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Yes it is.

The tax bill is X. As a citizen with equal protection under the law and equal rights, you have an equal obligation to fund the government. However, Progressive Taxation takes YOUR share of the federal tax burden from you and puts it on another.

That is redistributive.
See my above posts.
Quote:
Apparently you aren't.

There has been thread after thread where you maintain that whatever the majority votes for shall be the law. That whomever the majority votes for may make whatever law they choose. That is not the form of government we're supposed to have......not the form the states agreed to. In practice, yes. However, the Constitution provides for our government and it does not provide for simple majority rule.
The way I see so many threads go, if Conservatives feel that a program they support has majority support, they say that the issue should be decided by majority vote. If it doesn't, the conservatives scream for minority protection. You can't have it both ways. The population has the right to expect to see the rules and laws that the majority of the population want put in place and enforced. The people who don't enjoy a majority share of the public opinion need to accept that their views and beliefs didn't win the day in the battle of public opinion, and they need to try to sway public opinion to their views. I don't see a whole lot of gunowners, for example, reaching out to educate people who are on the fence. I see a lot of gun clubs STILL with the view, for instance, that women shooters are not welcome. How are you going to exclude half the electorate from converting to your viewpoint, just because they are a certain sex? The answer for some here is to deny women the right to vote, because they figure that women will be on the other side of gun issues, among other reasons....some men are just plain chauvinists.

Quote:
And for the record: The threads you refer to didn't advocate taking votes away from people they agree with. They advocated only allowing those who actually pay the bills in this country the exclusive right to decide how the government is run.
We all pay the bills of government. We should all have a say in how our nation is run
__________________
*Post contains personal opinion and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
tc556guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 09:46   #186
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Caught in the Middle
Posts: 42,003


Quote:
Originally Posted by tc556guy View Post
Who decides what is a fair share? We all, if you sat down and figured it out, benefit from government programs far more than we individually pay in, from the food on our shelves to the medicines in our hospitals to the roads we drive on, etc etc etc. None of us is paying more than the benefits we individually enjoy from the various programs and agencies that our tax dollars fund.
Edit:
I agree that everyone should contribute to the running of government. The reality is that for the lowest socio-economic classes, they don't have the ability to contribute at levels equal to the higher-paid classes of society. How are you going to tell a guy scrapping by on 10K-15K a year that he has to cough up even 15 % of that.
Fair is an equal share. Divide the federal budget by the number of able bodied citizens over 21 = fair share.

The lower socio-economic classes are freeloaders. That guy scraping by on 10-15K per year is a freeloader. He's chosen his place in life. sucks to be him.
__________________
Im for law and order, the way that it should be. This songs about the night they spent protecting you from me. - Waylon Jennings
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 09:52   #187
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Caught in the Middle
Posts: 42,003


Quote:
Originally Posted by tc556guy View Post
See my above posts.

I have seen all of your "above posts". Either you have very poor reading comprehension or you are incapable of understanding abstract thought.

Quote:
The way I see so many threads go, if Conservatives feel that a program they support has majority support, they say that the issue should be decided by majority vote. If it doesn't, the conservatives scream for minority protection. You can't have it both ways. The population has the right to expect to see the rules and laws that the majority of the population want put in place and enforced. The people who don't enjoy a majority share of the public opinion need to accept that their views and beliefs didn't win the day in the battle of public opinion, and they need to try to sway public opinion to their views. I don't see a whole lot of gunowners, for example, reaching out to educate people who are on the fence. I see a lot of gun clubs STILL with the view, for instance, that women shooters are not welcome. How are you going to exclude half the electorate from converting to your viewpoint, just because they are a certain sex? The answer for some here is to deny women the right to vote, because they figure that women will be on the other side of gun issues, among other reasons....some men are just plain chauvinists.
What in the **** are you talking about? Male chauvinists?

Your above description of majority rule taxation is yet another example of your marxist progressive views.

The Founders comprised the bill of rights as a decidely ANTI-democratic document. Its purposes are to protect the rights of the individual against exactly the type of tyranny you describe.

We have a Constitution that is supposed to draw boundaries as to what the .gov/elected representatives can do. Within those boundaries your opinions work. But we blew by those boundaries long ago. We now have majority rule -- tyranny of the majority -- and that is why our country is so divided.
__________________
Im for law and order, the way that it should be. This songs about the night they spent protecting you from me. - Waylon Jennings
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 09:52   #188
tc556guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 4,774
Send a message via ICQ to tc556guy Send a message via Yahoo to tc556guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Since at least 1950 it has been north of 40% from income taxes. I don't know how old you are but perhaps you heard it in the 1940s.
No, it was much more recent than that.

Quote:
When one person gets to live in this country without paying their fair share, someone else has to pay their way. That is redistribution.
Repeating the same thing over and over again wont make it true. Who decides what a fair share is, and who doesn't benefit far more than the taxes that they individually pay in.

Quote:
If the government makes one person pay for another's grocery bill it is no different than that person paying for the other's "government" bill.
If you don't like the government programs that pay for someones food bill, then summon the voters and end the program. if you can't get enough votes, I guess that not enough people agree with your views.

Quote:
Name some of these federal government services and programs we all benefit from.
Every Federal agency that exists, we all benefit from in some way.

Quote:
54% of the federal budget is mandatory spending. Mandatory spending IS social programs. 54% is redistributive.

You really need to do some research and get yourself informed so that you can form an educated opinion.
There is far more to mandatory spending than social programs.

I'm well educated, thanks very much. I notice from all political spectrums that a poster will make accusations that the other person is "uneducated" on an issue. Sometimes, as in the gun debates, there IS a lack of information flow. In general though, its merely done as a way of dismissing the differing viewpoints and comments. Don't make the mistake of throwing that out there.

We ALL complain about programs we don't agree with; Liberals complain about the defense budget. Do you want to allow them to dictate that the military budget be gutted? Be careful what you wish for.
__________________
*Post contains personal opinion and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
tc556guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 09:53   #189
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Caught in the Middle
Posts: 42,003


Quote:
Originally Posted by tc556guy View Post


We all pay the bills of government. We should all have a say in how our nation is run
This is incorrect.

Secondly, if we all want an EQUAL say in how our gubmint is run, then we all need to pay an equal bill to support it.
__________________
Im for law and order, the way that it should be. This songs about the night they spent protecting you from me. - Waylon Jennings
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 09:55   #190
tc556guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 4,774
Send a message via ICQ to tc556guy Send a message via Yahoo to tc556guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
What in the **** are you talking about? Male chauvinists?
I'm saying that I often see threads where posters say that various groups of citizens should be disenfranchised. This particular thread deals with exclusion based on income; others base their claim based on sex. Anyone who says we should be exclusing females simply for being female is a chauvinist misogynist.

Quote:
Your above description of majority rule taxation is yet another example of your marxist progressive views.
There you go with the labels again. You are hopeless. Go ahead and think what you want, but you need to broaden your horizons and stop trying to throw a label that doesn't fit on people whose views differ from your own.
__________________
*Post contains personal opinion and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
tc556guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 09:57   #191
tc556guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 4,774
Send a message via ICQ to tc556guy Send a message via Yahoo to tc556guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
This is incorrect.

Secondly, if we all want an EQUAL say in how our gubmint is run, then we all need to pay an equal bill to support it.
The vast majority of Americans pay taxes of some sort. YOU and your friends have decided to use a litmus test to declare that some people who don't pay income tax aren't "taxpayers". Thats a phony line of thinking.

As I've already said, all of us benefit more from programs than what we pay in; we are ALL in a deficit in that regards.
__________________
*Post contains personal opinion and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
tc556guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 10:12   #192
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Caught in the Middle
Posts: 42,003


Quote:
Originally Posted by tc556guy View Post

If you don't like the government programs that pay for someones food bill, then summon the voters and end the program. if you can't get enough votes, I guess that not enough people agree with your views.
The COTUS does not authorize the federal government to pay ANYONE'S food bill. My point exactly.

Quote:
Every Federal agency that exists, we all benefit from in some way.
Simply bull****.

I do not benefit from the Depts of Education, Energy, Environmental Protection, to name a few. And none are authorized by the COTUS. Ed and Enviro are STATE functions.

Quote:
There is far more to mandatory spending than social programs.
Really? Show me.

Survival/Preparedness Forum

Quote:
I'm well educated, thanks very much. I notice from all political spectrums that a poster will make accusations that the other person is "uneducated" on an issue. Sometimes, as in the gun debates, there IS a lack of information flow. In general though, its merely done as a way of dismissing the differing viewpoints and comments. Don't make the mistake of throwing that out there.
By educated, I mean informed. Not degreed.

Quote:
We ALL complain about programs we don't agree with; Liberals complain about the defense budget. Do you want to allow them to dictate that the military budget be gutted? Be careful what you wish for.
Yes. The defense budget. Bloated, wasteful and extremely corrupt. I have no issue with dramatically cutting it.

But, the primary Constitutional role of the federal government is to provide for the common defense. And even still, we spend far more on social/redistributive programs than on defense. And the social programs are not authorized by the COTUS.
__________________
Im for law and order, the way that it should be. This songs about the night they spent protecting you from me. - Waylon Jennings
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 10:14   #193
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Caught in the Middle
Posts: 42,003


Quote:
Originally Posted by tc556guy View Post
The vast majority of Americans pay taxes of some sort. YOU and your friends have decided to use a litmus test to declare that some people who don't pay income tax aren't "taxpayers". Thats a phony line of thinking.

As I've already said, all of us benefit more from programs than what we pay in; we are ALL in a deficit in that regards.
A fair share is an equal share in what it costs to run this government. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

My friends and I believe that it is no business of the federal government's how much money I earn. NONE! I don't share that info with my closest friends.

But your progressive friends decided otherwise and enacted a constitutional amendment requiring it.
__________________
Im for law and order, the way that it should be. This songs about the night they spent protecting you from me. - Waylon Jennings
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 10:23   #194
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Caught in the Middle
Posts: 42,003


See, here's the rub tc55guy: My views impose nothing on YOU. My views allow you to go about and live your life with liberty. Live as you see fit so long as you don't harm another citizen or violate their Constitutional rights.

Your views, on the other hand, impose your will on me. They restrict my liberty and my ability to live my life as I see fit.

True conservatives will tell you to simply, "Mind your own business". And we'll do the same.
__________________
Im for law and order, the way that it should be. This songs about the night they spent protecting you from me. - Waylon Jennings
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 22:19   #195
racerford
Senior Member
 
racerford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: DFW area
Posts: 5,087


Quote:
Originally Posted by tc556guy View Post
..... Who decides what a fair share is, and who doesn't benefit far more than the taxes that they individually pay in.



If you don't like the government programs that pay for someones food bill, then summon the voters and end the program. if you can't get enough votes, I guess that not enough people agree with your views.

.........
I would be happy to take on the role of deciding what a fair share is. I am a nice guy like that

I don't benefit far more than I pay in. You haven't paid my tax bills so you are in no position to say otherwise. The only way it might even be possible is the HUGE deficit spending we are under right now. You can't possibly believe that is good in the long term. Also, I can assure you that I will pay more than I get out of that before I die.


Remember this quote of Alexander F. Tyler "A Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess out of the treasury with the result that democracies always collapse over a loose fiscal policy, always to be followed by a dictatorship.'

Just because the majority votes for it doesn't make it right or not stealing from the rich.

Last edited by racerford; 04-23-2010 at 21:42..
racerford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 23:44   #196
kirgi08
Silver Membership
Watcher.
 
kirgi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Acme proving grounds.
Posts: 28,009
Blog Entries: 1


__________________
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

If you look like food,You will be eaten.

Rip Chad.You will be missed.
kirgi08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2010, 00:04   #197
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,140
Still no examples...?

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2010, 01:11   #198
cruz lee
Senior Member
 
cruz lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 250
what about having a flat 10 % payroll tax on every us citizen 18 yrs -66yr old to pay for healtcare services for all...no exclusioms. no deudctibles. can not be denied coverage.eletive surgery , you sssume a 75% responsability for fees out of pocket. penalties for coverage % based on poor lifestyle choices and risky behaviors. coverage cn be declines if continues to participate in risky /detri,ental behaiors despite medical evidence to the contrary ill effects on health ...stupid is as stupid does. see how lifestyle choices affect their coverage of health servivces ides due to unhealthy eating habits, poor lifestyle choices as far as education in nutrition and physical education..
__________________
I want to narrow the bridge between my world of ideas and my world of reality...
Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.
- Adams, John
cruz lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2010, 07:41   #199
tc556guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 4,774
Send a message via ICQ to tc556guy Send a message via Yahoo to tc556guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by cruz lee View Post
what about having a flat 10 % payroll tax on every us citizen 18 yrs -66yr old to pay for healtcare services for all...no exclusioms. no deudctibles. can not be denied coverage.eletive surgery , you sssume a 75% responsability for fees out of pocket. penalties for coverage % based on poor lifestyle choices and risky behaviors. coverage cn be declines if continues to participate in risky /detri,ental behaiors despite medical evidence to the contrary ill effects on health ...stupid is as stupid does. see how lifestyle choices affect their coverage of health servivces ides due to unhealthy eating habits, poor lifestyle choices as far as education in nutrition and physical education..
Everyone should pay for their own health insurance.
__________________
*Post contains personal opinion and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
tc556guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2010, 07:42   #200
tc556guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 4,774
Send a message via ICQ to tc556guy Send a message via Yahoo to tc556guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by racerford View Post
I don't benefit far more than I pay in. You haven't paid my tax bills so you are in no position to say otherwise.
Sure you do; you just don't want to admit that you do.The roads you drive on, the medicines you use, the food you eat....you benefit from so many programs and you don't even want to recognize it.
__________________
*Post contains personal opinion and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
tc556guy is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply


Tags
tc tucked tail and ran, tcguy is a socialist
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 22:07.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,036
281 Members
755 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31