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Old 04-21-2010, 22:47   #161
G29Reload
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Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
You picked something that no one else seemed to have any gripes about and then scrutinized it so it created contradiction for the sake of debate/argument.
I clearly quoted what you said and created nothing...the contradiction is yours for all to see.

First you say welfare's good to prevent people from getting violent, then scratch your head at the irony of welfare creating a violent criminal underclass. Its' one or the other, unless you enjoy creating that underclass.

Not my words, yours.
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Old 04-21-2010, 22:53   #162
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Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
I clearly quoted what you said and created nothing...the contradiction is yours for all to see.

First you say welfare's good to prevent people from getting violent, then scratch your head at the irony of welfare creating a violent criminal underclass. Its' one or the other, unless you enjoy creating that underclass.

Not my words, yours.
I'm questioning why you are hanging onto and using my words? Again, this isn't a debate. I shared my opinion of the situation (welfare), please feel free to share your opinion of the situation. BTW, I never said "welfare's good". I said it's a small price to pay.

How about giving some of the examples I asked for. I'm guessing you just haven't gotten to that part yet.

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Old 04-21-2010, 23:00   #163
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BTW, I never said "welfare's good". I said it's a small price to pay.
Till the irony of it being a large price to pay for creating a criminal underclass. Again, which is it?

I'm trying to get past your confusion and figure out what it is you really believe.

I say its a large price to pay that shouldnt' be paid, it creates problems instead of solving them. WELFARE IS NOT A SMALL PRICE TO PAY. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

The handouts can stop any time and if they want to riot, throw em in jail. And dont' even think about coming to my neighborhood...what 12ga was designed for.
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Old 04-21-2010, 23:04   #164
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Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
Till the irony of it being a large price to pay for creating a criminal underclass. Again, which is it?

I'm trying to get past your confusion and figure out what it is you really believe.

I say its a large price to pay that shouldnt' be paid, it creates problems instead of solving them. WELFARE IS NOT A SMALL PRICE TO PAY. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

The handouts can stop any time and if they want to riot, throw em in jail. And dont' even think about coming to my neighborhood...what 12ga was designed for.
Woah! Ok..ok...it's a large price to pay!!

Now do you have any examples?

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Old 04-21-2010, 23:24   #165
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Now do you have any examples?
Of welfare failing? That arguments long been won.

The Johnson Administration's failed Great Society would be a good snapshot.

Of welfare being rolled back? Some good examples surprisingly came out of the Clinton admin, welfare to work program and 5 year limit on welfare.

Suddenly a whole lot of people had to start working. Amazing.

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Old 04-21-2010, 23:27   #166
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Of welfare failing? That arguments long been won.

The Johnson Administration's failed Great Society would be a good snapshot.
No, not of welfare failing. Examples of the government or the people taking welfare away from those that receive it.

See it seems like the vast majority of governments have gone the other way of giving MORE handouts to the lazy instead of reducing them or eliminating them altogether.

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Old 04-22-2010, 06:39   #167
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Progressive taxation is the second of ten planks in the communist manifesto.
Just because a concept is stolen by a particular organization that you don't agree with as a talking point doesn't mean that the concept itself is bad. Repressive regimes all over the world give lip service in their documents to various freedoms; just because they do, are those concepts invalidated because of the source professing to follow them? No.
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:42   #168
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When 47% of people pay no taxes, I can't see how this can be sustained.
Except that that figure is erroneous. Almost everyone pays taxes of some sort.
Txes on food, on clothing, on gas, on purchases of all sorts. Income tax only constitutes a third of federal revenue.
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:46   #169
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Progressive taxation IS redistribution of wealth.
No, its not. Its recognizing that that individual can pay a greater share of the general tax burdern.



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Majority rule and voting are not the same thing. Majority rule is tyranny. A smart guy like you should know that we live in a Constitutional republic.
I am aware of the type of government we have. There are plenty of threads where people try to justify taking the right to vote away from groups whose views they don't agree with. THAT is tyranny.

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You have dozens if not more posts on GT professing marxist/socialist beliefs -- and defending them when challenged. Your above comments simply reinforce the marxist/socialist label, which is quite funny.
No, I don't. So standing up for the right to vote makes one a Marxist? I'd hate to live in any nation you had a hand in running. I don't imagine you'd be much for personal freedoms you didn't agree with.
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:48   #170
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Just because a concept is stolen by a particular organization that you don't agree with as a talking point doesn't mean that the concept itself is bad. Repressive regimes all over the world give lip service in their documents to various freedoms; just because they do, are those concepts invalidated because of the source professing to follow them? No.


Its not as though Marx couldn't fit it in the top 10. Its #2 on the list!

How else are you going to implement: "From each according to his means, to each accorcing to his needs"
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:50   #171
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Except that that figure is erroneous. Almost everyone pays taxes of some sort.
Txes on food, on clothing, on gas, on purchases of all sorts. Income tax only constitutes a third of federal revenue.
47% of people pay no income tax.
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:59   #172
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No, its not. Its recognizing that that individual can pay a greater share of the general tax burdern.
Yes it is.

The tax bill is X. As a citizen with equal protection under the law and equal rights, you have an equal obligation to fund the government. However, Progressive Taxation takes YOUR share of the federal tax burden from you and puts it on another.

That is redistributive.

And it doesn't even take into account social programs with direct redistribution that are funded with the taxes.

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I am aware of the type of government we have. There are plenty of threads where people try to justify taking the right to vote away from groups whose views they don't agree with. THAT is tyranny.
Apparently you aren't.

There has been thread after thread where you maintain that whatever the majority votes for shall be the law. That whomever the majority votes for may make whatever law they choose. That is not the form of government we're supposed to have......not the form the states agreed to. In practice, yes. However, the Constitution provides for our government and it does not provide for simple majority rule.

Unfettered democracy is the tool of dictators. Just ask Chavez.

And for the record: The threads you refer to didn't advocate taking votes away from people they agree with. They advocated only allowing those who actually pay the bills in this country the exclusive right to decide how the government is run.

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No, I don't. So standing up for the right to vote makes one a Marxist? I'd hate to live in any nation you had a hand in running. I don't imagine you'd be much for personal freedoms you didn't agree with.
Again, there is thread after thread of you defending Marxist principles. Mostly having to do with unfettered democracy and redistributive policies.
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:07   #173
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Except that that figure is erroneous. Almost everyone pays taxes of some sort.
Txes on food, on clothing, on gas, on purchases of all sorts. Income tax only constitutes a third of federal revenue.
45% 1/3 would be 33.333%

Survival/Preparedness Forum

And when you factor in the EITC, the folks who pay no federal income tax actually pay either no taxes or a negligible amount. http://www.irs.gov/individuals/artic...150513,00.html

So, progressive taxation takes money from those who earn more and gives it to those who earn less via EITC.

What part is not redistributive?
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Old 04-22-2010, 07:59   #174
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I honestly don't think people consider methods go to funding entitlements or "hand outs" (as the OP called them.) The methods come in many forms, as highlighted in certifiedfund's chart from the CBO -- but there are more. We all pay the price for entitlements. Even the so called 'poor' are paying a price, whether or not they realize it.

Any time you make a new "right" someone has to pay for it. Someone has to be deprived of their fruits to cover the cost of someone's new "right."

Face it, if many people who were 'downtrodden' got to play 'rich for a day,' would they like it when it's time to write a check to the IRS? Heck no! Gov't sponsodered entitlements suck.

I'm sick and tired of people with their "fantasy" view about entitlements and how great they benefit society. Get with the program.... No one is going to do more than "survive" on entitlements. It does not create opportunity. It undermines the fundamental desire to work hard and reap the benefits.

It's time to eliminate all unfair taxation methods -- real property, personal income, excise on US goods, etc. Let's go to a straight consumption tax collected at the point of sale (not a VAT!!!)
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Old 04-22-2010, 08:07   #175
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Just because a concept is stolen by a particular organization that you don't agree with as a talking point doesn't mean that the concept itself is bad. Repressive regimes all over the world give lip service in their documents to various freedoms; just because they do, are those concepts invalidated because of the source professing to follow them? No.
Also, Karl Marx didn't "steal" the Progressive Income tax. He invented it.

You Progressives stole it.
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:24   #176
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47% of people pay no income tax.
Yes, they pay no income tax; they pay OTHER taxes. They are STILL "taxpayers". As I said, only a third of federal tax dollars comes from income tax.
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:25   #177
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Also, Karl Marx didn't "steal" the Progressive Income tax. He invented it.

You Progressives stole it.
There you go with another label. I don't consider myself a "progressive". How about dealing with topics without trying to make someone fit a label.
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:29   #178
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Yes, they pay no income tax; they pay OTHER taxes. They are STILL "taxpayers". As I said, only a third of federal tax dollars comes from income tax.
Not when they get more from the government than they put in. Not when they get EITC. They are not paying their fair share. Every citizen should be responsible for supporting the government in the same manner. Why should one citizen get a free ride?

And its 45% that comes from income tax. Not 1/3.
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:30   #179
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
45% 1/3 would be 33.333%


What part is not redistributive?
The thing about "redistribution" is that it makes it sound like that money is being taken from one person and given to another. Taxes go for more than social programs; they go for government services and fuctions that we ALL benefit from. The people in the higher tax brackets are still paying for government services and functions that ALL of society benefits from, themselves included. They simply pay a slightly higher per centage than the guy on the lower bracket.
As for the pie chart, the last I'd heard, income tax only accounted for a third. Its still not EVERY tax being paid, and most other Americans pay all sorts of taxes in their daily lives. They ARE taxpayers.
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:31   #180
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There you go with another label. I don't consider myself a "progressive". How about dealing with topics without trying to make someone fit a label.
It really doesn't matter what you consider yourself. Based on what you type here I don't think you're informed enough to label your political views properly.

If you expouse marxist/progressive views, you can call them whatever you like. It doesn't change the fact that they are marxist progressive views. And if you believe the things you post, well, that makes you a marxist progressive whether you want to admit it or not.
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