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Old 04-09-2010, 09:05   #26
beatcop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTPD View Post
This quote of yours is so silly that I can't believe you are a real cop.
Sorry to derail the thread, but If I said I was a retired NYC cop (which I am not), what's the issue? 50k cops on board now, how many retired over 20 yrs? C'mon if you have the training and experience, lay it out there...otherwise we can just get back to our "opinion" based posts.

Me: FTO, Firearms Instructor, less-lethal shotgun instructor, "shooting decisions" certified...have done small city "urban" policing

MTPD? The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (Metro) Transit Police Department (MTPD)????

Beat says: Is a pack of Newports and $40 bucks worth getting killed over?

Quote:
Let me explain, since you don't seem to get it. It's not the loss of money or goods that justifies dropping armed robbers. It is the deadly threat they pose to you by pointing a gun at you. And, unless you are a mind-reader, you can't possibly know before they pull the trigger if they are just after a payday, or if they really intend to murderer you. That's why I advocate dropping evey armed robber at the first opportunity.

In essence, I would much rather rely on me and my pistola for survival, than on dumb luck.
Like I said, this stuff is too subjective...

Yup, I agree, if it looks like someone is going to get killed, I'll intervene. However, if a crook does a "grab and go" who cares? If you're not sworn, why expose yourself to the risk?

Last edited by beatcop; 04-09-2010 at 09:42..
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Old 04-09-2010, 09:20   #27
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I like MPTD's advice, that being said i do understand sometimes you shoot and sometimes u don't. It all depends on what is going on around you.

Thank you MPTD for speaking your mind.
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Old 04-09-2010, 09:22   #28
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Since I have a minute to kill...sorry if this is too obvious for the S&T reader.

Quote:
(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!
The .mil calls them battle drills. They allow you to "react" instead of going through all stages of the ooda loop.

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2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.
Great idea...see above. Only one problem, if you have no idea what an appropriate reaction or a reality based scenario is, what's the point?

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(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!
We can debate the idea of shooting a robber in the back and usually conclude it's usually a GO, but you better be damn sure of what you're doing and have a full awareness of legal and tactical ramifications. There are a ton of other factors that some will observe (type of weapons, number of robbers, their MO, cover/concealment, backup) and there are some things that may be "perceived" (your skill level, the crooks apparent calmness/skill, the liklihood of success). Some will say to look out for your own safety and avoid initiating a gunfight if one isn't "likely" to occur without your intervention.

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(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.
Agreed.

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(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".
See my previous posts...dead people can kill.

Quote:
(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.
Very situational, but I would say that you are on to something here...this has been debated in other posts at length.

Last edited by beatcop; 04-09-2010 at 09:31..
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:05   #29
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OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun. Then submissively curl up on the floor in the forlorn hope you and yours won't be executed, and cry for your mama! It won't bother me a bit if you do, and David, Dgg, et al, will love you for it.

Above all, if you do somehow scrape up the courage to resist armed felons, please don't shoot first, fast and accurate like I advise. If you do, you just might drop the BG......and the mamsy-pamsy media certainly won't like that!
Okay, I was being polite before, but now I ham inclined to believe you are NOT a police officer. I do not care how many screennames you have and how many of them you use to back up your own tales. No police officer would ever equate being robbed to "turning over your manhood." That makes me believe that you are definitely not a retired LEO. In fact I doubt you are of legal age to even hold a job yet. That post shows a level of immaturity beyond any I have ever seen from even the worst LEO.
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:22   #30
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Doing some basic statistics on robberies and murders committed during robberies, it would seem that a murder is committed in about 1 in 500 robberies. If it is a simple robbery (no shots fired, they're not trying to get you in a back room), you are far more likely to live if you don't draw your weapon. If you draw, your odds are far worse than 1 in 500. Live for another day, go home and post a macho story on glocktalk.
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Old 04-09-2010, 13:23   #31
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Originally Posted by playboypenguin
Okay, I was being polite before, but now I am inclined to believe you are NOT a police officer.
"What color is the boathouse at hereford?"


.....pin-drop
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Old 04-09-2010, 13:27   #32
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Originally Posted by beatcop View Post
"What color is the boathouse at hereford?"


.....pin-drop
To me, it kind of doesn't matter if someone was a real LEO or a LE poseur if you can't tell the difference. MTPD fails what I call the "Internet LE imposter Turing Test," namely:

Is this person's posts about police work and firearms advice indistinguishable from the same advice given by a 15 year old whose entire knowledge base about guns and crime comes exclusively from bad 1970s cop shows?

Last edited by dgg9; 04-09-2010 at 13:30..
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Old 04-09-2010, 13:40   #33
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Armed robbery survival by "Vinny"...8:28 minutes...give it a chance he'll grow on you.....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9he1cpp4pw
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Old 04-09-2010, 13:51   #34
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It comes down to this, who would you rather see die, the innocent victim or the vicious armed felon?
Being from the "Olde School of Police Work", I don't understand the modern cop mentality of not wanting anyone (including perps) to get hurt.
Actually, there are many other options beside the "it comes down to this" choice you suggest. And being a fairly old school cop myself, I wish to assure those reading this that most old cops then, just as now, do have concerns about people getting hurt and wanted to minimize that.

Quote:
from btmj:
If MTPD is a cop, he sure does not talk like any LEO I ever knew
While it does seem that he wore a badge at one time, most LEOs tend to disagree with just about everything he suggests regarding how police did things, or how LE or non-LE these days should do things. As I have phrased it, he may have worn a badge but it is obvious he never was really a cop.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 04-12-2010 at 08:55..
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Old 04-09-2010, 13:54   #35
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OK, I give up. Go ahead and do like the modern-day so-called "experts" here suggest and meekly hand over your wallet, your wife, your kids and your manhood to any slime-ball with a gun. Then submissively curl up on the floor in the forlorn hope you and yours won't be executed, and cry for your mama! It won't bother me a bit if you do, and David, Dgg, et al, will love you for it.
Perhaps you could find anywhere that any of the folks here have suggested doing that? Oh wait, never mind...you can't find it because YOU MADE IT UP!! (like so many other things you post!)

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At least one of the "experts" you apparently esteem was shot on the job, and I wasn't, even though I had the highest felony arrest record in the history of my high crime city PD. Now, I wonder why he was and I wasn't, if my advice is so bad and his so good?
Probably because he has a verified record of actaully making arrests and being in gunfights, while you have made lots of claims about it but haven't been able to convince a single known real officer here that you did ever made an arrest or pulled your gun out for anything besides cleaning it.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 04-09-2010 at 13:58..
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Old 04-09-2010, 14:07   #36
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During the Battle of Normandy (June-July 1944) the allied forces fielded 1.3 million men, and suffered 120,000 casualties.

Raise your hand if you think that the ones who survived were the better gunfighters, and the ones who died were killed because they failed to deliver a "powerful COM upper torso" hit to their enemies. This is the MTPD theory of combat.

Or do you instead believe that with all those bullets, bombs, and shells flying around, it was mostly luck that determined who made and who didn't. This is the DGG9 theory of combat.

Hint: read some history. All the guys who were there believe it was luck, not skill, that allowed them to survive.
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Old 04-09-2010, 14:21   #37
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Or do you instead believe that with all those bullets, bombs, and shells flying around, it was mostly luck that determined who made and who didn't. This is the DGG9 theory of combat.
I won't say "mostly" luck for all gunfights. But a "fair amount" of luck is definitely involved, even at the one on one level. There's skill too, but luck sometimes trumps skill.

ETA: but, to pursue your analogy: once you escalate (for example) a convenience store robbery into a gunfight, then for the BYSTANDERS, it's all about luck, like the Battle of Normandy.

Last edited by dgg9; 04-09-2010 at 14:24..
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Old 04-09-2010, 14:38   #38
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(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.
I don't get this. If someone is pointing a gun your head and they tell you to lie face down, why the F would you not do it? Why wouldn't they shoot you dead right there for not complying. To me, if you do what they tell you, you are more likely to be out of sight, out of mind because they know you followed their demands. You pull out the tough guy stuff, they're going to keep an eye on you or just shoot you to eliminate the threat. Lie down and as the BG attends to others or doing the actual robbery, then maybe pull your gun and shoot the bastard. I don't think I could look down a barrel and say no.

I am not LE or claim to know a lot about these situations, but to me, the number one thing is to blend in and adapt, then if possible, make a move.

Just my .02
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Old 04-09-2010, 14:53   #39
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I don't get this. If someone is pointing a gun your head and they tell you to lie face down, why the F would you not do it? Why wouldn't they shoot you dead right there for not complying. To me, if you do what they tell you, you are more likely to be out of sight, out of mind because they know you followed their demands. You pull out the tough guy stuff, they're going to keep an eye on you or just shoot you to eliminate the threat. Lie down and as the BG attends to others or doing the actual robbery, then maybe pull your gun and shoot the bastard. I don't think I could look down a barrel and say no.

I am not LE or claim to know a lot about these situations, but to me, the number one thing is to blend in and adapt, then if possible, make a move.

Just my .02
When this scenario is brought up it used to refer to the McDonalds shootings where they herded the staff into the walk-in fridge and popped then quietly. So, if it's one on one you're probably right...however, if they are "herding" the flock somewhere it could mean executions....or not.

On the floor:
-because it's easier to hit the back of someone's head than a moving target
-if the bad guy is planning on shooting a group....it's easier
-less stressful executing people who aren't looking
-won't get disarmed/rushed by victim
-passerby's won't see customers with hands up in the air and call LE
-one crook can guard and see a lot of people
-clear shot at people entering or running from the store
etc, etc....because they saw it in a movie?
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Old 04-09-2010, 15:05   #40
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When this scenario is brought up it used to refer to the McDonalds shootings where they herded the staff into the walk-in fridge and popped then quietly. So, if it's one on one you're probably right...however, if they are "herding" the flock somewhere it could mean executions....or not.

On the floor:
-because it's easier to hit the back of someone's head than a moving target
-if the bad guy is planning on shooting a group....it's easier
-less stressful executing people who aren't looking
-won't get disarmed/rushed by victim
-passerby's won't see customers with hands up in the air and call LE
-one crook can guard and see a lot of people
-clear shot at people entering or running from the store
etc, etc....because they saw it in a movie?
Some of that makes sense, but then what, when they've (maybe one BG, maybe 2 or 3) got a gun pointed at your head and tell you to lie face down and you say no? That seems like a lose/lose situation to me. It just seems like to me, if you obliged to their demands, you will have that split second opportunity to make a move if necessary.

If BG says, head to the back room and you say NO...boom dead! How does that work in your favor? If you're concealing a weapon at the time, IMO you are more likely to get an opportunity to take out the BG the more you blend in and don't draw attention.

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Old 04-09-2010, 15:12   #41
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BTW, at 7/11, I'm most likely going to be in the back in the beer section anyway, so hopefully that will give me enough time to react accordingly
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Old 04-09-2010, 15:17   #42
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Some of that makes sense, but then what, when they've (maybe one BG, maybe 2 or 3) got a gun pointed at your head and tell you to lie face down and you say no? That seems like a lose/lose situation to me.
Well, it is. At that point, you're fairly well screwed. In this, as in all situations, you have to weigh action vs compliance.

The evidence indicates that a lot of the time, compliance ends up better: say, you're a bystander at the 7/11 holdup, the BG not really paying attention to you. Then the best result might be to let it happen and be a witness. Escalating the robbery by shooting at the BG probably increases the chance an innocent gets shot.

But there are times to escalate, even in the face of bad odds. If the BG wants to tie your hands, for example, or put you in the trunk of a car, I personally would escalate, even though the odds are poor -- because I believe the odds are poorer in this case for compliance.

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Old 04-09-2010, 15:23   #43
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I do not see much validity in your statements. I do not think most cops care of a perp gets hurt. They do not want to see non-deadly encounters escalated to deadly ones. I do not see any evidence to support drawing on an armed person results in them dying more often than the person drawing second either.
Well said. Especially the first sentance.
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Old 04-09-2010, 16:44   #44
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Yet another thread that begins with a felony crime in progress of some livery, with the usual responses that unless you immediately present your firearm and empty it into one or all of the BG's you're a ******, pu$$y, sheep or unfit to carry a concealed weapon in public, or you're as good as dead right on the spot.

That's just not the way it is.

Lets state up front that you may in fact have to shoot. The situation may devolve to the point that the only choice is to engage the adversary with gunfire until one or all of you are dead. Yes, this is a possible outcome, and its the reason most of us carry a gun. But there is so much ground to cover between being involved in a crime and progress and executing a lethal force response that its impossible to cover them in tens of pages of narrative for a single incident, let alone a generalization presented in a single paragraph that ends with "now what do you do".

A crime in progress that may end with a use of force or lethal force doesn't occur in an instant. They evolve over seconds and minutes. There is the period of time before the actual events occur, that could be the years spent on the range honing skills and tactics to prepare your response, or it could be while you're handing cash to the clerk as you glance outside and notice a few people casually getting out of a car, and they're wearing coats and ski-masks, and its July. That impacts your actions and the responses available to you.

Once things actually start happening, the situation is necessarily dynamic and ever changing. There will be moments of opportunity that you have to act where you can seize a momentary advantage to launch a response, whether that's to draw a firearm and engage, or slip out the emergency exit, or hit send on your cell phone. as quickly as those moments present themselves, they can evaporate just as quickly. the one you just passed on or weren't aware of may be the last one you get in that incident, or it may lead to an even better chance to act in the next second.

Should you choose to act, your justification for doing so, and what you are justified to do will also change and evolve by the second. The elements of justification for a shooting are not permenant, and what may in fact be a perfectly justifiable use of force in one moment, may be a criminal act on your part just a moment later depending on what has transpired.

These scenarios as presented are also always too vague. Justification to act always hinges on the minutae. Minutae that following an incident just a few seconds or minutes in duration will take an individual or officer DAYS just to get on paper in interviews with investigators, depositions, and sessions of testimomy, and then more hours and days answering questions that arise as others look at the situation.

Of course the internet commandos always live to fill in the blanks left in the initial scenario with "what ifs" that must force the decision to shoot right then and there, and if you don't, yadda yadda yadda.

I like to consider myself a rational responder. My default position is not that I shoot anytime I see a crime in progress. In all honesty its probably to not shoot even when I might be justified in doing so. The decision on whether to engage a BG is rooted in the things that I observe that don't fit in a one paragraph scenario, 95% of which has already transpired, and which included actions taken by the individual setting the stage for me that I would have done very differently from the get go.

That doesn't mean that I won't shoot. I might have to. But I don't see the world as one where my only choices are dying proned out on the floor or shooting my way to victory. There are oh so many other things that can happen, with varying degrees of positive and negative in those outcomes. There are infiniely many decision points where I can make a choice that alters the landscape of the scenario, for the better or for the worse. I can do everything right and still die, or I can do everything wrong and still live.

We can and should discuss and disect these incidents. Discussing real incidents is even better. But you're missing the real value of the dissection if all you're looking at is whether or not you should shoot. The decision to engage in lethal force is the last link in the chain so to speak.

The real point here is to dissect the situation leading up to the decision to shoot, not putting on the internet bravado and saying "bla bla bla, I already said everything that needs said, shoot or don't shoot". Or discussing how if the decision is made to engage at a certain point, what tactics you can deploy at that moment to mazimze your chances of succes, while minimizing the risk to yourself or others.

Maybe then we'll gain some value from the scenario discussions. Until then, this crap is getting boring. Get yourself a copy of the first person shooter of your choice, and shoot it out to your hearts content. Just notice how no matter how good you are, that health meter keeps taking hits, and remind yourself that in real life there is no med-kit that restores the meter to 100%, and there are no save points and do-overs.
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Old 04-09-2010, 17:36   #45
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^ Well said...I wasn't willing to devote that much typing to the standard nonsense here.
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Old 04-09-2010, 18:30   #46
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While it does seem that he wore a badge at one time,
My kid's worn a badge too. He's 3. And I'm betting his came from the same little type of costume set as the OP's did.
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Old 04-09-2010, 18:46   #47
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Old 04-09-2010, 18:49   #48
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Morons live to be 90, man. That hardly proves your point - though you're here, so...

So now you're MENSA worthy? We'll add that to the list of B.S. you've stacked up around here.
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Old 04-09-2010, 18:55   #49
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Originally Posted by me
C'mon if you have the training and experience, lay it out there...otherwise we can just get back to our "opinion" based posts.
Second call.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTPD
Because if you hit the BG COM in the upper torso by surprise there isn't much chance of a gunfight.
I don't think surprise will generally be on our side....but that's just my .02
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Old 04-09-2010, 23:20   #50
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I keep hearing the, "Oh, please don't start a gunfight" nonsense over and over. How come?
Because it has been shown to be one of the most effective ways of getting through a situation with minimal loss of resources, which is why so many police departments, security professionals, researchers, and so on suggest it as a preferred action, and recommend against the shoot-em-up fantasy.
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I know those who have never actually "been there" don't understand this fact of life and death, but it's true nevertheless.
Of course, the basic problem with that is there are so many here and elsewhere that are vetted as BTDT disagree with you, and you have absolutely nothing to support your claims.
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In fact, I have a MENSA level IQ ...
I think we can file that one with the other mtpd fantasies.

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