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Old 04-09-2010, 15:12   #41
brausso
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BTW, at 7/11, I'm most likely going to be in the back in the beer section anyway, so hopefully that will give me enough time to react accordingly
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Old 04-09-2010, 15:17   #42
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Some of that makes sense, but then what, when they've (maybe one BG, maybe 2 or 3) got a gun pointed at your head and tell you to lie face down and you say no? That seems like a lose/lose situation to me.
Well, it is. At that point, you're fairly well screwed. In this, as in all situations, you have to weigh action vs compliance.

The evidence indicates that a lot of the time, compliance ends up better: say, you're a bystander at the 7/11 holdup, the BG not really paying attention to you. Then the best result might be to let it happen and be a witness. Escalating the robbery by shooting at the BG probably increases the chance an innocent gets shot.

But there are times to escalate, even in the face of bad odds. If the BG wants to tie your hands, for example, or put you in the trunk of a car, I personally would escalate, even though the odds are poor -- because I believe the odds are poorer in this case for compliance.

Last edited by dgg9; 04-09-2010 at 15:18..
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Old 04-09-2010, 15:23   #43
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I do not see much validity in your statements. I do not think most cops care of a perp gets hurt. They do not want to see non-deadly encounters escalated to deadly ones. I do not see any evidence to support drawing on an armed person results in them dying more often than the person drawing second either.
Well said. Especially the first sentance.
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Old 04-09-2010, 16:44   #44
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Yet another thread that begins with a felony crime in progress of some livery, with the usual responses that unless you immediately present your firearm and empty it into one or all of the BG's you're a ******, pu$$y, sheep or unfit to carry a concealed weapon in public, or you're as good as dead right on the spot.

That's just not the way it is.

Lets state up front that you may in fact have to shoot. The situation may devolve to the point that the only choice is to engage the adversary with gunfire until one or all of you are dead. Yes, this is a possible outcome, and its the reason most of us carry a gun. But there is so much ground to cover between being involved in a crime and progress and executing a lethal force response that its impossible to cover them in tens of pages of narrative for a single incident, let alone a generalization presented in a single paragraph that ends with "now what do you do".

A crime in progress that may end with a use of force or lethal force doesn't occur in an instant. They evolve over seconds and minutes. There is the period of time before the actual events occur, that could be the years spent on the range honing skills and tactics to prepare your response, or it could be while you're handing cash to the clerk as you glance outside and notice a few people casually getting out of a car, and they're wearing coats and ski-masks, and its July. That impacts your actions and the responses available to you.

Once things actually start happening, the situation is necessarily dynamic and ever changing. There will be moments of opportunity that you have to act where you can seize a momentary advantage to launch a response, whether that's to draw a firearm and engage, or slip out the emergency exit, or hit send on your cell phone. as quickly as those moments present themselves, they can evaporate just as quickly. the one you just passed on or weren't aware of may be the last one you get in that incident, or it may lead to an even better chance to act in the next second.

Should you choose to act, your justification for doing so, and what you are justified to do will also change and evolve by the second. The elements of justification for a shooting are not permenant, and what may in fact be a perfectly justifiable use of force in one moment, may be a criminal act on your part just a moment later depending on what has transpired.

These scenarios as presented are also always too vague. Justification to act always hinges on the minutae. Minutae that following an incident just a few seconds or minutes in duration will take an individual or officer DAYS just to get on paper in interviews with investigators, depositions, and sessions of testimomy, and then more hours and days answering questions that arise as others look at the situation.

Of course the internet commandos always live to fill in the blanks left in the initial scenario with "what ifs" that must force the decision to shoot right then and there, and if you don't, yadda yadda yadda.

I like to consider myself a rational responder. My default position is not that I shoot anytime I see a crime in progress. In all honesty its probably to not shoot even when I might be justified in doing so. The decision on whether to engage a BG is rooted in the things that I observe that don't fit in a one paragraph scenario, 95% of which has already transpired, and which included actions taken by the individual setting the stage for me that I would have done very differently from the get go.

That doesn't mean that I won't shoot. I might have to. But I don't see the world as one where my only choices are dying proned out on the floor or shooting my way to victory. There are oh so many other things that can happen, with varying degrees of positive and negative in those outcomes. There are infiniely many decision points where I can make a choice that alters the landscape of the scenario, for the better or for the worse. I can do everything right and still die, or I can do everything wrong and still live.

We can and should discuss and disect these incidents. Discussing real incidents is even better. But you're missing the real value of the dissection if all you're looking at is whether or not you should shoot. The decision to engage in lethal force is the last link in the chain so to speak.

The real point here is to dissect the situation leading up to the decision to shoot, not putting on the internet bravado and saying "bla bla bla, I already said everything that needs said, shoot or don't shoot". Or discussing how if the decision is made to engage at a certain point, what tactics you can deploy at that moment to mazimze your chances of succes, while minimizing the risk to yourself or others.

Maybe then we'll gain some value from the scenario discussions. Until then, this crap is getting boring. Get yourself a copy of the first person shooter of your choice, and shoot it out to your hearts content. Just notice how no matter how good you are, that health meter keeps taking hits, and remind yourself that in real life there is no med-kit that restores the meter to 100%, and there are no save points and do-overs.
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Old 04-09-2010, 17:36   #45
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^ Well said...I wasn't willing to devote that much typing to the standard nonsense here.
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Old 04-09-2010, 18:30   #46
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While it does seem that he wore a badge at one time,
My kid's worn a badge too. He's 3. And I'm betting his came from the same little type of costume set as the OP's did.
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Old 04-09-2010, 18:46   #47
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My advice isn't for everyone. It's primarily for legally armed citizens who refuse to be victims.

Last edited by MTPD; 04-15-2010 at 21:22..
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Old 04-09-2010, 18:49   #48
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Morons live to be 90, man. That hardly proves your point - though you're here, so...

So now you're MENSA worthy? We'll add that to the list of B.S. you've stacked up around here.
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Old 04-09-2010, 18:55   #49
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C'mon if you have the training and experience, lay it out there...otherwise we can just get back to our "opinion" based posts.
Second call.....

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Because if you hit the BG COM in the upper torso by surprise there isn't much chance of a gunfight.
I don't think surprise will generally be on our side....but that's just my .02
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Old 04-09-2010, 23:20   #50
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from mtpd:
I keep hearing the, "Oh, please don't start a gunfight" nonsense over and over. How come?
Because it has been shown to be one of the most effective ways of getting through a situation with minimal loss of resources, which is why so many police departments, security professionals, researchers, and so on suggest it as a preferred action, and recommend against the shoot-em-up fantasy.
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I know those who have never actually "been there" don't understand this fact of life and death, but it's true nevertheless.
Of course, the basic problem with that is there are so many here and elsewhere that are vetted as BTDT disagree with you, and you have absolutely nothing to support your claims.
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In fact, I have a MENSA level IQ ...
I think we can file that one with the other mtpd fantasies.

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Old 04-10-2010, 06:32   #51
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Hum... it's Saturday morning. I'm enjoying my second mug of extremely good rich coffee. I've finally gotten to the end of this thread and I have decided that excuses to the contrary, most of it amounts to ACWOT ... you know... a complete waste of time. Obsess over what you might/will do in this or any other scenario. But if/when an incident occurs, whatever you do, you will have to live with the consequences of your choice(s). Try to think about how to choose wisely in haste. Because if/when it happens, there will be little time for careful thought. Afterward your every action and rational will be subjected to extremely careful review. JMHO. Sincerely. Brucev.
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Old 04-10-2010, 07:47   #52
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I don't get this. If someone is pointing a gun your head and they tell you to lie face down, why the F would you not do it?...

Just my .02
Like I said way back, my advice is NOT FOR SHEEP, it's for those who refuse to be victims.
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Old 04-10-2010, 08:30   #53
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Last edited by MTPD; 04-15-2010 at 21:11..
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Old 04-10-2010, 11:38   #54
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David, you should know by now that I can prove everything I've ever said about my background, and this includes multiple Police Officer of the Year awards, 50+ letters of commendation and multiple shooting situations. Your repeated lies and insinuations to the contrary speak volumes about your lack of honesty, personal honor and integrity.

We never have agreed on much, but that's no reason to stoop to character asassination.
Just to be clear...how do you prove those things are yours? I could stand next to my grandfathers medals and claim I won them all. I could stand next to my dad's service commendations and claim they are mine. I could then create multiple screennames and back up my own story. Wan't there even a story not too long ago about a guy that claimed to be a USMC officer (he wore the uniforms to school reunions and on the internet, he had all the ribbons and medals, had fake papers, etc.) who turned out to have never served at all?
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:46   #55
brausso
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Like I said way back, my advice is NOT FOR SHEEP, it's for those who refuse to be victims.
I call BS. Refuse to be victim? what are you called after you say no and you take a bullet between your eyes???? A dead victim!
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:58   #56
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David, you should know by now that I can prove everything I've ever said about my background, and this includes multiple Police Officer of the Year awards, 50+ letters of commendation and multiple shooting situations. Your repeated lies and insinuations to the contrary speak volumes about your lack of honesty, personal honor and integrity.

We never have agreed on much, but that's no reason to stoop to character asassination.
Prove it. Furnish a link to the records.

By the way, the couple of things you told me, they didn't check out.
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Old 04-10-2010, 13:10   #57
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I looked at some of MTPD's old posts....at least he's consistent.
If the goal of this forum is to further the tactical awareness of good folks here, let's put the good advice up for debate and put the bad where it belongs.

I have seen a lot of "this is my opinion" posts, which have a place, but not too many "this was put out when I went to thunder ranch/police academy/blackwater posts.....

If you're going to claim expert/high level user/trainer/operative status, put out your creds so the rest of us know the advice comes from training and experience, not some video game!

You've been called out numerous times, post your creds!!!!

-sorry for the double tap RussP

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Old 04-10-2010, 13:47   #58
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...
-sorry for the double tap RussP
Back-up is always appreciated...
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Old 04-10-2010, 18:04   #59
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David, you should know by now that I can prove everything I've ever said about my background, and this includes multiple Police Officer of the Year awards, 50+ letters of commendation and multiple shooting situations.
Really? Go ahead and prove it then. The most I ever saw on the other thread in question was that someone vouched that you once were on a PD (WPB, I think?), nothing more. The rest is clearly your Walter Mitty inventions.

Real BTDT types almost never brag and preen in public, as you do in every single post.

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Old 04-11-2010, 09:30   #60
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Wait, I forgot, the mob is still looking for him. He can't ID himself. They'll search all of CO and Southern TX until they find him.
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