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Old 04-13-2010, 08:13   #101
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Originally Posted by dgg9 View Post
Again, why should anyone believe these stories?

You don't seem to be completely dense.
Dgg, sorry I can't say the same about you.
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Old 04-13-2010, 08:16   #102
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Bear in mind that my advice is for those who refuse to be victims. It's not for sheeple, like those issuing off-topic personal attacks instead of contributing something of value.
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Old 04-13-2010, 08:17   #103
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why should anyone believe these stories?

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So you were given a chance to establish credibility. That's a "no," then.

Thanks for playing!
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Old 04-13-2010, 08:18   #104
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Bear in mind that my advice is for those who refuse to be victims. It's not for sheeple, like those issuing off-topic personal attacks instead of contributing something of value.
You have not contributed anything of value, because none of your claimed anecdotes is vetted.

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Old 04-13-2010, 08:43   #105
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Dgg, plese detail your street experience. Seems like I remember you being a computer nerd in real life?
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Old 04-13-2010, 09:01   #106
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Dgg, plese detail your street experience. Seems like I remember you being a computer nerd in real life?
Maybe you are dense after all, if you think every reader here in this thread has already forgotten that we've been through this tap dance before. I'm not the one inventing anecdotes left and right to support my position -- you are.

To repeat:

If I were basing 100% of the validity of my arguments on my name, address, phone #, DOB, SS#, wife's name, and history of employment, then yes, I would expect to be asked to produce them.

However, none of my arguments is based on any of that.

100% -- every single bit -- of your arguments are based on your claimed "experiences," and anecdotes you claim to have first hand knowledge of. Not one other real cop agrees with you, nor do any actual expert sources line up with your bizarre positions.

Therefore since you set up your claimed experiences as the SOLE basis for all your positions, you need to document them.

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Old 04-13-2010, 09:32   #107
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However, "many others" died because of making mistakes or being "unready".
So your solution is to run around paranoid all the time, and start gunfights and kill folks needlessly because you are scared of them? Sorry, real cops don't work that way.
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And, by the way, your intentional lies are why your honesty and integrity are in question.
Strange, it seems most of the questions about background, honesty and such here are being directed at you, not me. I'm fairly well vetted around here, AFAIK.
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The above incidents are why I consider your advice, which is basically "don't shoot first and start a gunfight, just meekly submit and hope for the best", to be suicidal in many cases.
Of course the idea that is my advice is simply more of your fantasy, and a gross misrepresentation of what I suggest.

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Old 04-13-2010, 10:50   #108
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Old 04-13-2010, 15:16   #109
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Dang, if I didn't know better... it's almost as if Gunkid escaped or won early release.
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:18   #110
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Let me refresh everyone's memory:

This advice is for those who carry concealed legally and refuse to be victims.

(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!

(2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11 ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.

(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!

(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.

(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.

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Caveat: If you can't stay on topic, don't participate.
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:33   #111
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Caveat: If you can't stay on topic, don't participate.
I completely agree.

And since 100% of your argument rests on your undocumented and unvetted anecdotes, why should anyone believe you? That's the only topic worth discussing when it comes to your advice.

Show some evidence that these anecdotes actually happened, or go away.

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Old 04-14-2010, 09:59   #112
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Spoken like a true sheep, David!
If you think I'm a sheep it shows how out of touch with reality you really are.
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Let me explain, the people committing armed robberies are not "FOLKS"! They are dangerous, potentionally homicidal, ARMED FELONS!
Yeah, they are folks. Just like millions of other folks out there. They are not alien monsters, and they react and respond in fairly pridectable human patterns for the most part. True psychopaths or sociopaths are fairly rare.
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And I'm not scared of them, and never have been.
Sure doesn't sound that way, given the stories you keep telling.
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You, on the other hand, are living in Fantasyland where you think armed robbers are just good "folks" with nothing in mind but love, kindness and charitible donations.
Once again we see the fantasy at work, as nowhere have I suggested anything like that. It is just more proof of how you make things up.
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And carry a rabbit's foot instead of a gun. A pink one.
My daughter carries the pink gun (at least the grips are pink). Mine is stainless and black or all black, depending on my mood.
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Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net.
interesting that your advice is to ignore the advice given by most LE agencies, security expeerts, and researchers. It appears that perhaps all those folks who actually have a proven record behind them might know something you do on.
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In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back.
And just when are we going to get some proof of this claimed police experience??

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Old 04-14-2010, 10:16   #113
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David,

Could you post (or PM me if you're not comfortable posting them) links or bibliographic citations for the studies to which you have been alluding? (I'm not interested in picking a fight, just reading the studies / articles.)

Whilst the number of incidents of armed robbery from which statistical observations can be drawn is quite high (I presume, as I am not personally aware of them), do these studies or articles differentiate between armed robberies where no armed citizens were present, vs. armed citizens were present but cooperated and/or were discovered to be armed?

While I realize each situation is unique, might I inquire your personal "trigger" or "triggers" that would prompt you to "go to guns" (so to speak) if you were present in a convenience store that was being robbed?

I understand your perspective that the statistical odds favor doing nothing... yet by doing nothing, you risk being "shepherded" into a situation wherein you may very lose your most important edge -- that of surprise should you decide you have no other choice than to engage.

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Old 04-14-2010, 10:27   #114
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Originally Posted by steve2267 View Post
While I realize each situation is unique, might I inquire your personal "trigger" or "triggers" that would prompt you to "go to guns" (so to speak) if you were present in a convenience store that was being robbed?

I understand your perspective that the statistical odds favor doing nothing... yet by doing nothing, you risk being "shepherded" into a situation wherein you may very lose your most important edge -- that of surprise should you decide you have no other choice than to engage.
I won't speak for DA, but degoodman made a most excellent post along these lines, which I selectively quote from:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost...3&postcount=35

Quote:
There is a chance of getting hurt or killed in a simple robbery. An exceedingly small chance, but still a chance. In concrete numbers according to the FBI/DOJ, there were approximately 343,000 robberies. of the homicides that occurred only about 1100 occurred during a robbery. that places the odds of getting killed in a robbery attempt at about 1 in 343. Contrast that with your odds of taking injury or getting killed in a gunfight, which various sources place anywhere between 1 in 5 at the worst, and about 1 in 10 at best.

An intelligent person will look at that and note that the odds of a successful encounter, defined by concluding the situation uninjured and alive, are highest if he doesn't respond, unless prompted to by actions of the BG other than the fact he's comitting a robbery.

And that's the key here. Robbery may serve as the legal justification for a defensive shoot, but if you have a brain, it is not the primary trigger for that shoot to occur. Most robbers want property or money that they can obtain easily and quickly and then they want to leave. The ones that don't usually telegraph that things aren't going that way in ways that we can react to, greatly increasing the chances that we wil shoot only when we absolutely have to if we base our response on those clues.

Is the robber becoming increasingly agitated in the face of compliant victims? Is he gathering hostages or taking people to a secondary crime scene? Is he attempting to restrain the victims of his crime? Is he becoming target focused on a single individual or subset of the victims? Is he attempting to barricade himself in? Has he changed the ready state of his weapon by cocking it or deactivating a safety? It doesn't take but a split second to notice these clues and base your reactions on them. And that second could be the difference between the end result being a robbery where the victim store lost $1000 worth of cash and portable property, or a shootout that you started, that resulted in 1 dead BG and 2 dead and 3 seriously injured patrons, one of whom will never walk again, and one of the dead is you.
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Old 04-14-2010, 10:34   #115
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Old 04-14-2010, 10:40   #116
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Thank you dgg9. I quite agree with everything written there.

The third paragraph you cited is key:
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Is the robber becoming increasingly agitated in the face of compliant victims? Is he gathering hostages or taking people to a secondary crime scene? Is he attempting to restrain the victims of his crime? Is he becoming target focused on a single individual or subset of the victims? Is he attempting to barricade himself in? Has he changed the ready state of his weapon by cocking it or deactivating a safety? It doesn't take but a split second to notice these clues and base your reactions on them. And that second could be the difference between the end result being a robbery where the victim store lost $1000 worth of cash and portable property, or a shootout that you started, that resulted in 1 dead BG and 2 dead and 3 seriously injured patrons, one of whom will never walk again, and one of the dead is you.
And I am interested in further discussing these clues that strongly suggest or hint that a simple robbery is about to take a turn for the worse. Are there any studies / articles that discuss different hints or clues and how they skew the original very low odds of being hurt during a simple robbery when they (the hints or clues) are present?

That is, is it a shades of gray problem of continually interpreting hints/clues or is it a far simpler binary go/no go decision where if ANY of the following (list of hints / clues / observations follows) are observed, it is time to go to plan B (i.e. stop cooperating)?
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Old 04-14-2010, 10:54   #117
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Are there any studies / articles that discuss different hints or clues and how they skew the original very low odds of being hurt during a simple robbery when they (the hints or clues) are present?
I'll let DA field that one. One problem with that is that there are relatively few convenience store robberies that turn into massacres / executions, and I'm guessing fewer still where you could recreate a reliable account of what happened.

I'll SWAG that I read about less than a dozen a year in Philly. Usually (purely based on what I read), the witness-execution massacres happened when the robber had some inside track -- used to work there, or girlfriend works there, or some other stupidity. I've read about store robbery executions that happen in bars right around closing -- if I had to guess, the BG was stupid enough to rob a bar where he'd be recognized. Or maybe there was a personal/reprisal element all along. And the cases you read about where they shoot the clerk tend (IIRC) to be where the clerk is all alone in the store.

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Old 04-14-2010, 10:58   #118
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Obviously you never worked in a high crime environment like I did! I dealt with murdering, raping savages on a daily basis, and they damn sure wern't normal "folks" like everyone else. That you think so shows how totally out of touch with street reality you are.
This sort of willful denseness on your part is getting tiresome.

Yes, there certainly are murdering, raping savages in every city. That's not the point. The point is: is the average 7-11 holdup guy going to act, during commission of his robbery, like a murdering, raping savage? On the average, no.
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Old 04-14-2010, 11:00   #119
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, my best police buddy and I still get together and talk over old times. He worked two tours as Capt. of Detectives (with 30+ detectives under his command), and three tours as Capt. of Patrol, (with 200+ officers under his command). He and I agree on almost everything, including shooting first in life/death situations, which he and I have both done.
So, when charged with inventing imaginary things that no real, vetted person agrees with -- you invent another nameless, imaginary person as witness?

Hint: adding yet another fictional shill does not validate your arguments.
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Old 04-14-2010, 11:16   #120
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Originally Posted by steve2267 View Post
...I understand your perspective that the statistical odds favor doing nothing... yet by doing nothing, you risk being "shepherded" into a situation wherein you may very lose your most important edge -- that of surprise should you decide you have no other choice than to engage.

--
Respectfully,
Steve
Steve, one needs to understand that stats are absolutely meaningless when you are personally confronted by an armed robber. Why? Because your armed robber is a unique individual, and your robbery a unique event. That being the case, the stats can no more predict what will happen in a unique event (armed robbery), than they can predict the next two cards you will be dealt at a Blackjack table in Vagas.

Yes, stats can tell you what happened in a majority of similar situations in the past, but stats can't tell you what's going to happen to you in this one particular robbery today.
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:22   #121
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Could you post (or PM me if you're not comfortable posting them) links or bibliographic citations for the studies to which you have been alluding? (I'm not interested in picking a fight, just reading the studies / articles.)
Here is some stuff to start with:
*******************
It is well-appreciated that gun-underwritten intimidation deters victim resistance and increases victim compliance and submission. That gun-armed robbers are less likely to inflict injury on their victims than unarmed robbers or robbers armed with other weapons is consistent with their preferring submission to inflicting injury.
--Lance K. Stell. 2004. “The Production of Criminal Violence in America: Is Strict Gun Control the Solution?” Journal of Law, Medicine and Ethics. Spring.

See also
Richard T. Wright and Scott H. Decker, “Armed Robbers in Action: Stickups and Street Culture.” 1997.

Jack Katz, “Seductions of Crime.” 1988

Jody Miller, “Up It Up: Gender and the Accomplishment of Street Robbery.” 1998.

All of the available evidence indicates that the most common reasons for the actual use of violence during a robbery are victims resisting, making sudden moves, or otherwise hindering the completion of the robbery.
--Rosemary J. Erickson and Arnie Stenseth. “Crimes of Convenience.” 1996


In reference to defense acts in violent crimes: 1/5 of victims who defended themselves with a firearm suffered an injury. 1/2 of those who defended themselves with weapons other than a firearm or who had no weapon were injured. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1994.


Robberies in which the offender attacked without prior threat constituted only 36 percent of robberies, but caused 66% of all serious injuries. Robberies in which the offender did not immediately attack, even though a greater percentage of actual attacks (64% vs. 36%) saw a lower rate of injury and less severe injuries. Victims who defended themselves against offenders armed with guns were more likely to be injured than those who took no actions during the crime. Across all weapon types, the most dangerous actions for victims were attacking, threatening, or resisting the offender. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1995.


Even though a weapon, most commonly a firearm, is used in 83% of all carjackings, injury to the victim is rare, with most victim not injured and only 4% suffering serious injury. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1999.
*****************************************************
One can also look at things like the UCR, NCVS, and so on.

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While I realize each situation is unique, might I inquire your personal "trigger" or "triggers" that would prompt you to "go to guns" (so to speak) if you were present in a convenience store that was being robbed?
I don't have personal triggers outside of "minimize the loss of resources for me and mine" cost/benefit analysis. What is the BG saying or doing? What are the dynamics involved? What has he already done, and how has he done it? Who else is there, and what are they doing? That is the problem with so many of these things, they are not static, they are constantly evolving. I like degoodman's phrasing of "Robbery may serve as the legal justification for a defensive shoot, but if you have a brain, it is not the primary trigger for that shoot to occur." You don't start a gunfight just because there is a robbery, but things that happen during the robbery may indicate a need to shoot.
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I understand your perspective that the statistical odds favor doing nothing... yet by doing nothing, you risk being "shepherded" into a situation wherein you may very lose your most important edge -- that of surprise should you decide you have no other choice than to engage.
Complying is not doing nothing. That is the mistake so many make. Complying with the BG is a reasoned response to reduce the chance of loss and injury. It is definitely doing something. Given the odds that is the default position to take, and work from there. You can always increase the force, it is hard to take it back once you have used it. Sure there is a chance you will lose your only really good opportunity to shoot the BG. But you need to balance that with the chance that you won't need to shoot him at all, and that you might get a better chance later, the chance that if you shoot at him you may miss or the shot may be ineffective, the chance that you haven't identified all the players (does the BG have an accomplice standing right next to you that you don't know about?) and so on.
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:22   #122
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Steve, one needs to understand that stats are absolutely meaningless when you are personally confronted by an armed robber. Why? Because your armed robber is a unique person, and your robbery a unique event. That being the case, the stats can no more predict what will happen to you in a unique event armed robbery, than they can predict the next two cards you will be dealt at a Blackjack table in Vagas. Which is why Vegas casinos encourage players to study stats!!! In fact, casinos are so sure that past stats are meaningless with regard to each new and unique turn of the wheel, that they even post running stats (the most recent winning numbers) at many roulette tables.

In other words, stats can tell you what happened in a majority of similar situations in the past, but stats can't tell you what's going to happen to you in this one particular robbery today.

That David relys on yesterdays meaningless statistical averages for what to when your unique armed robber shows up today, is witchery at best, fraud at worst.
Your post is gibberish at best, 100% wrong at worst.
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:39   #123
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David, Your advice to others is "sheeple" advice, in my opinion.
your opinion i sduly noted. Also duly noted is that your opinion of what should be done is contradicted by most of LE, security specialists, and researchers on the subject, so it is hard to give much credence to your opinion.
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Obviously you never worked in a high crime environment like I did!
Given your inability to prove any of your claims regarding your work environment, I have no idea if I worked in a high crime environment like you did, or if you ever worked in a high crime environment at all. Given your stories I am inclined to believe that you never worked an area with much crime. I can only respond based on the times I worked in high crime environments.
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This is the same kind of undocumented broad generality ...
LOL!!! For you of all people to talk about "undocumented" is the apex of humour!
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He and I agree on almost everything, including shooting first in life/death situations, which he and I have both done. All my other police buddies, retired and current, agree also.
Ah yes, more mystery guests..."These guys will support everything I say, but only if nobody knows who they are or where they worked and what they did."
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So where are you getting your stats from? DisneyLand?.
no, I try to use verified sources, things like Uniform Crime Reports, NCVS data, scholarly publications, and so on. I would suggest you might try them yourself to learn what the actual facts are.
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Old 04-14-2010, 13:03   #124
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MTPD,

If you are in fact on duty, with that present state of mind, you need to be relieved, NOW! Mostly for your own good, but for the agency and Jurisdiction you work for.

Please, to educate those of us that disagree with you, give us a valid reference supporting your point of view and why this would be the preferred tactics in this sort of situation.

I have rather extensive combat experience. If all I needed to stop a VCA from a violent act was a pistol shot to COM, why do we use rifles and shotguns? I don't trust any handgun, and frankly, many rifles to stop anyone short of a solid CNS hit. And so do every one of the terminal Ballistic researchers I know and know of. That includes the FBI.

Go figure.

Fred

he has not been in uniform in decades...
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Old 04-14-2010, 13:16   #125
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Originally Posted by MTPD View Post
This advice is for those who carry concealed legally and refuse to be victims.

(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!

(2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11 ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.

(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!

(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.

(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.
The only thing I can agree with is 2, 4 and part of six....
I shot a guy through the Heart with an Mp5 and he was still able to squeeze a round off from a Remmington 1100 that is not a comfortable feeling.

The problem is that YOU will probably be suffering more from tunnel vision than the robber who has done three of these in that past week!

The words to live by are money and property are not worth it, your life or a loved ones are worth it. That is where the line is drawn IMHO

If I am in uniform or if the perp starts taking patrons wallets where my creds are, yup I will cause a distraction and it will be go time. that is NOT the TYPICAL stop and rob scenario.
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