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Old 04-14-2010, 12:22   #121
David Armstrong
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Could you post (or PM me if you're not comfortable posting them) links or bibliographic citations for the studies to which you have been alluding? (I'm not interested in picking a fight, just reading the studies / articles.)
Here is some stuff to start with:
*******************
It is well-appreciated that gun-underwritten intimidation deters victim resistance and increases victim compliance and submission. That gun-armed robbers are less likely to inflict injury on their victims than unarmed robbers or robbers armed with other weapons is consistent with their preferring submission to inflicting injury.
--Lance K. Stell. 2004. “The Production of Criminal Violence in America: Is Strict Gun Control the Solution?” Journal of Law, Medicine and Ethics. Spring.

See also
Richard T. Wright and Scott H. Decker, “Armed Robbers in Action: Stickups and Street Culture.” 1997.

Jack Katz, “Seductions of Crime.” 1988

Jody Miller, “Up It Up: Gender and the Accomplishment of Street Robbery.” 1998.

All of the available evidence indicates that the most common reasons for the actual use of violence during a robbery are victims resisting, making sudden moves, or otherwise hindering the completion of the robbery.
--Rosemary J. Erickson and Arnie Stenseth. “Crimes of Convenience.” 1996


In reference to defense acts in violent crimes: 1/5 of victims who defended themselves with a firearm suffered an injury. 1/2 of those who defended themselves with weapons other than a firearm or who had no weapon were injured. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1994.


Robberies in which the offender attacked without prior threat constituted only 36 percent of robberies, but caused 66% of all serious injuries. Robberies in which the offender did not immediately attack, even though a greater percentage of actual attacks (64% vs. 36%) saw a lower rate of injury and less severe injuries. Victims who defended themselves against offenders armed with guns were more likely to be injured than those who took no actions during the crime. Across all weapon types, the most dangerous actions for victims were attacking, threatening, or resisting the offender. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1995.


Even though a weapon, most commonly a firearm, is used in 83% of all carjackings, injury to the victim is rare, with most victim not injured and only 4% suffering serious injury. Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1999.
*****************************************************
One can also look at things like the UCR, NCVS, and so on.

Quote:
While I realize each situation is unique, might I inquire your personal "trigger" or "triggers" that would prompt you to "go to guns" (so to speak) if you were present in a convenience store that was being robbed?
I don't have personal triggers outside of "minimize the loss of resources for me and mine" cost/benefit analysis. What is the BG saying or doing? What are the dynamics involved? What has he already done, and how has he done it? Who else is there, and what are they doing? That is the problem with so many of these things, they are not static, they are constantly evolving. I like degoodman's phrasing of "Robbery may serve as the legal justification for a defensive shoot, but if you have a brain, it is not the primary trigger for that shoot to occur." You don't start a gunfight just because there is a robbery, but things that happen during the robbery may indicate a need to shoot.
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I understand your perspective that the statistical odds favor doing nothing... yet by doing nothing, you risk being "shepherded" into a situation wherein you may very lose your most important edge -- that of surprise should you decide you have no other choice than to engage.
Complying is not doing nothing. That is the mistake so many make. Complying with the BG is a reasoned response to reduce the chance of loss and injury. It is definitely doing something. Given the odds that is the default position to take, and work from there. You can always increase the force, it is hard to take it back once you have used it. Sure there is a chance you will lose your only really good opportunity to shoot the BG. But you need to balance that with the chance that you won't need to shoot him at all, and that you might get a better chance later, the chance that if you shoot at him you may miss or the shot may be ineffective, the chance that you haven't identified all the players (does the BG have an accomplice standing right next to you that you don't know about?) and so on.
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:22   #122
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Steve, one needs to understand that stats are absolutely meaningless when you are personally confronted by an armed robber. Why? Because your armed robber is a unique person, and your robbery a unique event. That being the case, the stats can no more predict what will happen to you in a unique event armed robbery, than they can predict the next two cards you will be dealt at a Blackjack table in Vagas. Which is why Vegas casinos encourage players to study stats!!! In fact, casinos are so sure that past stats are meaningless with regard to each new and unique turn of the wheel, that they even post running stats (the most recent winning numbers) at many roulette tables.

In other words, stats can tell you what happened in a majority of similar situations in the past, but stats can't tell you what's going to happen to you in this one particular robbery today.

That David relys on yesterdays meaningless statistical averages for what to when your unique armed robber shows up today, is witchery at best, fraud at worst.
Your post is gibberish at best, 100% wrong at worst.
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:39   #123
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David, Your advice to others is "sheeple" advice, in my opinion.
your opinion i sduly noted. Also duly noted is that your opinion of what should be done is contradicted by most of LE, security specialists, and researchers on the subject, so it is hard to give much credence to your opinion.
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Obviously you never worked in a high crime environment like I did!
Given your inability to prove any of your claims regarding your work environment, I have no idea if I worked in a high crime environment like you did, or if you ever worked in a high crime environment at all. Given your stories I am inclined to believe that you never worked an area with much crime. I can only respond based on the times I worked in high crime environments.
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This is the same kind of undocumented broad generality ...
LOL!!! For you of all people to talk about "undocumented" is the apex of humour!
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He and I agree on almost everything, including shooting first in life/death situations, which he and I have both done. All my other police buddies, retired and current, agree also.
Ah yes, more mystery guests..."These guys will support everything I say, but only if nobody knows who they are or where they worked and what they did."
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So where are you getting your stats from? DisneyLand?.
no, I try to use verified sources, things like Uniform Crime Reports, NCVS data, scholarly publications, and so on. I would suggest you might try them yourself to learn what the actual facts are.
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Old 04-14-2010, 13:03   #124
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MTPD,

If you are in fact on duty, with that present state of mind, you need to be relieved, NOW! Mostly for your own good, but for the agency and Jurisdiction you work for.

Please, to educate those of us that disagree with you, give us a valid reference supporting your point of view and why this would be the preferred tactics in this sort of situation.

I have rather extensive combat experience. If all I needed to stop a VCA from a violent act was a pistol shot to COM, why do we use rifles and shotguns? I don't trust any handgun, and frankly, many rifles to stop anyone short of a solid CNS hit. And so do every one of the terminal Ballistic researchers I know and know of. That includes the FBI.

Go figure.

Fred

he has not been in uniform in decades...
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Old 04-14-2010, 13:16   #125
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This advice is for those who carry concealed legally and refuse to be victims.

(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!

(2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11 ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.

(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!

(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.

(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.
The only thing I can agree with is 2, 4 and part of six....
I shot a guy through the Heart with an Mp5 and he was still able to squeeze a round off from a Remmington 1100 that is not a comfortable feeling.

The problem is that YOU will probably be suffering more from tunnel vision than the robber who has done three of these in that past week!

The words to live by are money and property are not worth it, your life or a loved ones are worth it. That is where the line is drawn IMHO

If I am in uniform or if the perp starts taking patrons wallets where my creds are, yup I will cause a distraction and it will be go time. that is NOT the TYPICAL stop and rob scenario.
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Old 04-15-2010, 07:54   #126
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Perhaps cops and civilians have different perspectives?
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:18   #127
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What difference does it make if you are in uniform or not? Armed robbers can kill you either way.

Another officer and I were in a shooting situation where the robber was shot through the chest (in and out), nicking the heart, and the BG was able to run about 20 yards before collapsing and dying. But this guy was hit with an old-days 38 special round, which was notoriously ineffective.

Were you using JHP's or FMJ 9mm's in your MP5, and where did the shot the BG fired go? Was it aimed, or just an unaimed reflex shot?

As for tunnel vision, I've always had it when in dangerous situations. However, I never thought of it as a handicap. Quite the contrary, 200% concentration on the target helps me shoot better. But as soon as the target drops, tunnel vision disappears and allows me to scan for more BG's. I'd hate to think what a shooting situation would be like without tunnel vision, without being able to concentrate completely on the target!!!


Tactically being in uniform makes a huge difference if you don't know why I can't explain it.

Tunnel vision is a huge handicap think MULTIPLE THREATS.

But what do I know I have only based my professional career on teaching cops in High risk situations how to WIN not just SURVIVE.
That is 27 years of consecutive full time Law Enforcement service 25 of that training people to deal with hostile threats.
How many lesson plans have you written?
How many of your students have been involved in lethal confrontations and came back to you and thanked you and hugged you telling you your instruction made the difference?

Have a great retirement but don't preach to us like your still in the game...you're not.
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:39   #128
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:34   #129
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SWAT, go back and read the OP. This thread wasn't intended to be advice for police officers, rather it was specifically intended for those who carry concealed and refuse to be victims = civilians.
Bad advice is bad advice, be it for uniformed LE or others.
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As for tunnel vision, I've always had it when in dangerous situations. However, I never thought of it as a handicap.
Which is just one more bit of evidence demonstrating your lack of understanding and experience regarding actual tactics.

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Old 04-15-2010, 09:37   #130
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Bad advice is bad advice, be it for uniformed LE or others.

.
At last, we agree on something!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-15-2010, 16:16   #131
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...
Tunnel vision: Yes, I understand multiple threats. But.....you have to take them out one at a time, which means you have to concentrate/focus/tunnel-in on them one by one while actually shooting. I learned that early in life while hunting. When you jump multiple targets you have to concentrate on one (and only one) until that one drops, then quickly move on to the next, otherwise you might miss them all. Same thing with BG's.
That is not total BS, just 99%. That may work when hunting 4-legged animals that do not have the capability of killing you, but when engaging the armed two legged variety, following your advice will get someone killed. Why do you say stupid **** like that...no question mark - that's rhetorical.
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Old 04-15-2010, 16:29   #132
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This advice is for those who carry concealed legally and refuse to be victims.

(1) Plan ahead. Decide what you will do if confronted by an armed robber, memorize it, practice it, and if the situation ever comes up, ACT THE INSTANT THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES!

(2) Play "What if?" games in your mind. For example, when you walk into a 7/11 ask yourself what you would do "if" this or that happens.

(3) Bear in mind that during real life armed robberies there are almost always opportunities to take out the robber(s). They usually don't watch everyone all the time. Or they get distracted by something or other. When their attention is momentarily elsewhere, that's the time to ACT!

(4) Carry a 100% reliable and effective pistol (or two) loaded with effective ammo, and practice enough to be confident in your ability to prevail. Confidence breeds success.

(5) Ignore all the "Oh Lordy, please don't start a gunfight Matilda!" nonsense you see on the net. In my police experience, hardly anyone hit by surprise with a powerful COM upper torso JHP is able to shoot back. If they can't shoot back, there is no "gunfight".

(6) Never ever follow orders to lie on the floor face down, or to go into a back room. Your survival probability drops considerably in those situations.
Good general advice. I will offer a couple of additional items for consideration. On items 1 & 2, I agree 100%...but, your plans will likely get trashed the second an incident occurs. It's still good to plan & run through the scenarios. But that's where your #4 comes into play. If you've ever shot competitively, you will quickly find out out that your plan often goes out the window when something unexpected happens and you are under stress. It doesn't mean that planning and playing what if scenarios is a bad thing. Not at all. I just mean that you need to practice, practice, practice...and take it beyond just standing in front of a stationary target at a range.

On item 6, I can tell you that's not always true. I can't discuss the details but an individual was a victim of an armed robbery. He was one of many victims being robbed. He decided to not follow orders. He was the only one shot & killed. Unfortunately I don't think there is a cardinal rule that works every time. If you are armed and have an opportunity to engage, I think you stand a better chance of winning the confrontation. But be aware there is the risk that you will not. You just need to make you best judgement and don't look back.
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Old 04-15-2010, 20:08   #133
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The words to live by are money and property are not worth it, your life or a loved ones are worth it. That is where the line is drawn IMHO

If I am in uniform or if the perp starts taking patrons wallets where my creds are, yup I will cause a distraction and it will be go time. that is NOT the TYPICAL stop and rob scenario.
Stop with that crazy talk....you should know by now that anything resembling "sense" is just wuss talk!

After joining the military, becoming a cop, deploying, etc...I discovered that some people are different, some are nuts, & some don't get "it"...& never will.

I have seen a few things and can only express my hope that this old dude holds his fire...I see the armored car scene in Heat, the bank scene in Point Break (?) and a few others where "that guy" decides it's time to draw a pea shooter at the wrong moment, against insurmountable odds. Sorry, I can only articulate this through movie clips, but a pic is worth a thousand words.

We all have dillusions of superior marksmanship at times, but let's get real, we may not have the expertise of MTPD...and to recommend to the untrained masses to initiate combat at the first opportunity is bad advice.

We're not talking about a swat call-out, a plane hijacking by hajji, a suicide bomber at a roadblock in Iraq...we've been bantering about a "standard" grab-n-go where the crook takes the money and runs....toss your wallet and run. You'll live longer.

If you are joe whitebread and think you're going to outshoot a crook who has a bead already, you need to reevaluate the situation. Crooks who have reached this point in their criminal career have "training & experience"....they know they will smoke you at the first flinch you make, they've done this before & may enjoy it! They may have shot a few people...no hesitation here.

The fact that many people can perform the mechanics of handling and static marksmanship on a one way range has bolstered egos to the point where some feel they can handle violent scenarios and conversely guys who have seen a few things think they can take on the world.

I'm not a guru, but I feel the urge to say that survival is a mix of skill, mindset, and experience. Try to find the proper ratios by talking to folks who have a track record and maybe get some competent training if you can afford it.
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Old 04-15-2010, 20:14   #134
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On item 6, I can tell you that's not always true. I can't discuss the details but an individual was a victim of an armed robbery. He was one of many victims being robbed. He decided to not follow orders. He was the only one shot & killed. Unfortunately I don't think there is a cardinal rule that works every time. If you are armed and have an opportunity to engage, I think you stand a better chance of winning the confrontation. But be aware there is the risk that you will not. You just need to make you best judgement and don't look back.
Good stuff. That's exactly why I said it's not a good idea to stand out as the problem, but rather blend in and adapt.
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Old 04-15-2010, 20:45   #135
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Good general advice. I will offer a couple of additional items for consideration. On items 1 & 2, I agree 100%...but, your plans will likely get trashed the second an incident occurs. It's still good to plan & run through the scenarios. But that's where your #4 comes into play. If you've ever shot competitively, you will quickly find out out that your plan often goes out the window when something unexpected happens and you are under stress. It doesn't mean that planning and playing what if scenarios is a bad thing. Not at all. I just mean that you need to practice, practice, practice...and take it beyond just standing in front of a stationary target at a range.

On item 6, I can tell you that's not always true. I can't discuss the details but an individual was a victim of an armed robbery. He was one of many victims being robbed. He decided to not follow orders. He was the only one shot & killed. Unfortunately I don't think there is a cardinal rule that works every time. If you are armed and have an opportunity to engage, I think you stand a better chance of winning the confrontation. But be aware there is the risk that you will not. You just need to make you best judgement and don't look back.
Every robbery situation is a unique event and the outcome can't be predicted. I just watched a crime program on TV where several adults and 4 children were hearded into the back room at a bowling alley and all were shot execution style by two armed robbers. Three survived, the rest died. Nobody resisted.
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Old 04-15-2010, 20:48   #136
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Old 04-16-2010, 04:23   #137
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Every robbery situation is a unique event and the outcome can't be predicted. I just watched a crime program on TV where several adults and 4 children were hearded into the back room at a bowling alley and all were shot execution style by two armed robbers. Three survived, the rest died. Nobody resisted.
Yep...that's what black & white rules are impossible to develop for such a dynamic situation. I will say that have situational awareness is a huge factor in avoiding being put a major disadvantage. Noting the entrance of restaurant and looking at the folks coming in versus sitting obliviously with your back to everything would be a major advantage in helping you decide early how best to react.
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:16   #138
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Every robbery situation is a unique event and the outcome can't be predicted. I just watched a crime program on TV where several adults and 4 children were hearded into the back room at a bowling alley and all were shot execution style by two armed robbers. Three survived, the rest died. Nobody resisted.
The situation you are describing is called "moving to a secondary crime scene" and is always an indicator you are in peril and you should resist, you should take my class on personal security.

It is clear when you are being moved to a secondary crime scene that your life is in danger and you should do what you can to survive.

That is MUCH different from a quick stop and rob scenario or bank takeover.

This is all a moot point since on any given day only about 20% of those that carry guns are truly mentally prepared to use them to take a life.

This is based on MY experience debrieng those that were in shootings or SHOULD HAVE SHOT. Both Police and civilian.
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:18   #139
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Oh and about your signature line, you realize he is an entertainer???
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Old 04-16-2010, 12:20   #140
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The situation you are describing is called "moving to a secondary crime scene" and is always an indicator you are in peril and you should resist, you should take my class on personal security.

It is clear when you are being moved to a secondary crime scene that your life is in danger and you should do what you can to survive.

That is MUCH different from a quick stop and rob scenario or bank takeover.

This is all a moot point since on any given day only about 20% of those that carry guns are truly mentally prepared to use them to take a life.

This is based on MY experience debrieng those that were in shootings or SHOULD HAVE SHOT. Both Police and civilian.
Am I disoriented, or are you agreeing with some of my original points? Namely, don't let a robber take you in the back room, plan ahead so you are mentally "ready", play "what if" games to refine your tactics, and be ready, willing and able to shoot first, if shooting becomes necessary.

If so, thank you!

By the way, I never thought of shooting in self-defense as "taking a life". I've always considered it saving a life, or lives (mine and other innocents'). As far as the armed felon goes, he accepted the possibility of himself getting shot, or of having to kill innocents when he decided to use a gun in the commission of a crime. So any shooting that takes place is totally his fault, not his victim's.

Bottom line is this, by using a gun to commit felonies, armed robbers (tacitly) volunteer to be targets. Just like the felon did that you dropped with your MP5, right? Which means whatever happens is the felon's fault. At least to me it is.
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