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Old 04-19-2010, 12:16   #151
MTPD
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So, while supposedly working as support for a decoy officer over a half dozen guys were able to approach your vehicle and assault/attempt to rob you without you noticing it until the act was well into the process. Yep, sounds like really good police work there!

Where and when was this, again?
David, Did I say I didn't see them coming???? And, pay attention here, we were supposed to be pretending to be easy victims in order to sucker the armed robber into trying to rob us. Because of drunk victims' poor descriptions, we hadn't been able to ID him.

I thought I did a pretty good job, and didn't even have to resort to a bunch of meaningless stats, or do a cost/benefit analysis, to get the guy.

How would you have done it better? Armed robber in jail, no one shot or stabbed, and all that accomplished in only one hour on state-out.
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Old 04-19-2010, 17:08   #152
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So it isn't intended for everybody, especially not those who seem to think being robbed at gunpoint as nothing much to worry about.
And it IS intended, apparently, for those who believe starting a gunfight among bystanders is nothing much to worry about.

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Here's a question for those who would just submit. How can you know ahead of time if your particular armed robber is planning to murder all the witnesses, including you, or not? The answer is simple, you can't know until after he starts the executions, and then it's too late.
This has already been answered. The fact that you think the norm is that robbery becomes massacre with no warning speaks to your lack of knowledge in this area.

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As for me, my concern if for the survival of the innocent, and I never have cared much about what happens to violent armed felons.
Actually, it's apparent that survival of the innocent is not your concern at all, else you wouldn't be so blase about advising escalation, as if "dropping the BG" without him getting off shots is some sort of automatic gimme. You seem to be living in this dreamworld consisting 100% of episodes of bad 70s TV cop shows, where the shot BG instantly drops to the ground, inert.
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Old 04-19-2010, 17:10   #153
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So.....maybe I'm a nicer guy than some here seems to think?
No, just more imaginative.
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Old 04-19-2010, 18:47   #154
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Just to show that I don't shoot every armed robber that tries to rob me, I was on a stake-out once along the RR tracks in my city. It was night, I was in my own private vehicle in plain clothes pretending to drink beer
...times have changed.
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Old 04-20-2010, 05:28   #155
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...times have changed.
I was in my own private vehicle because in those days the BG's could recognize our unmarked police vehicles blocks away. When we didn't happen to have any confiscated vehicles available, we had to use our own personal vehicles on stake-outs/undercover ops if we didn't want to be "made".
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Old 04-20-2010, 08:38   #156
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David, Did I say I didn't see them coming????
Oh, so you saw them coming and still let them surround your vehicle and put you at a distinct tactical disadvantage? Gee, that sort of ranks right up there with sitting in the car with your gun tucked under your leg. The more you talk the more obvious it is that you know next to nothing about good tactics or good police work.
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And, pay attention here, we were supposed to be pretending to be easy victims in order to sucker the armed robber into trying to rob us.
No, YOU were supposed to be taking care of support for your partner. Sounds like you screwed that up royally.
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I thought I did a pretty good job, and didn't even have to resort to a bunch of meaningless stats, or do a cost/benefit analysis, to get the guy.
Actually you did do a cost/benefit analysis, based on stats. You just can't seem to understand that is what you did.

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Old 04-20-2010, 09:58   #157
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Oh, so you saw them coming and still let them surround your vehicle and put you at a distinct tactical disadvantage? Gee, that sort of ranks right up there with sitting in the car with your gun tucked under your leg. The more you talk the more obvious it is that you know next to nothing about good tactics or good police work.

No, YOU were supposed to be taking care of support for your partner. Sounds like you screwed that up royally.

Actually you did do a cost/benefit analysis, based on stats. You just can't seem to understand that is what you did.
David, until the armed robber actually tried to rob me we had no case. So I had to let him try. That's the way it's done. (Are you sure you were a cop once?)

My revolver was in my shooting hand the entire time I was on stake-out. Which is the way I always operated in such situations. I only tucked it part way under my leg to prevent the teen accomplices from seeing it until I wanted them to. And they tried their best to see if I was armed before actually initiating the robbery.

The robber was the one who did a cost/benefit analysis, if anyone did. After I grabbed him and shoved my .38 in his face, he only had a split-second to do the computations. Apparently he was a math wiz, because he immediately chose to drop the knife, surrender....and live. But I doubt he relied on stats for the decision, instead I think it was the look in my eyes that told him he was less than a second away from death.
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:22   #158
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David, until the armed robber actually tried to rob me we had no case. So I had to let him try. That's the way it's done.
No, that is not the way it is done when you are in support of the decoy officer. Of course, that you would be doing this solo in your own car is also not the way it is done, so what else is new?
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My revolver was in my shooting hand the entire time I was on stake-out. Which is the way I always operated in such situations.
As I said, poor tactics and poor police work.
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The robber was the one who did a cost/benefit analysis, if anyone did.
Keep on thinking that. We'll add it to the many other things you obvioulsy don't understand.
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:05   #159
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No, that is not the way it is done when you are in support of the decoy officer. Of course, that you would be doing this solo in your own car is also not the way it is done, so what else is new?

As I said, poor tactics and poor police work.

Keep on thinking that. We'll add it to the many other things you obvioulsy don't understand.
Are you saying I should have told the armed robber to wait for the right decoy cop, instead of taking him down myself when opportunity knocked? Or that me capturing the armed robber single-handedly only one hour into the stake-ou (even though he had 6-8 ghetto followers with him) was "poor police work"!!! Apparently my department disagreed with you, because I got a letter of commendation for the arrest. Mainly because the depaartment felt this guy was going to end up murdering a victim sooner or later, due to him having left cut marks on several throats previously.


Maybe you should explain in detail exactly what you would have done? All you do is complain that everybody else is wrong, without explaining how you, with all your bookish-brilliance, could have done better with the resources we had available at the time.

Available resources: 1 rookie patrolman decoy cop, 1 experienced Det. Sgt. back-up cop (me), no department unmarked cars that wouldn't be spotted as police vehicles. That was it.
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:21   #160
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All you do is complain that everybody else is wrong, without explaining how you, with all your bookish-brilliance, could have done better with the resources we had available at the time.
I don't have to teach someone how to cook a pancake to point out that they have burned the one they cooked. You are the one that keeps claiming all this experience, many others, including me, keep pointing out that your claims and the way you say to do things conflicts with good tactics and the training that real police officers have. You want to continue posting bad advice and nonsense claims, go right ahead, but don't expect folks to let the nonsense slide by without pointing out that it is nonsense.
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:24   #161
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1 rookie patrolman decoy cop
So let me get this straight, you put an inexperienced rookie patrolman in a highly dangerous decoy assignment?

Supposedly you are a Det. Sgt, but didn't have anyone in your squad that could perform the Decoy role?
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Old 04-20-2010, 11:33   #162
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So let me get this straight, you put an inexperienced rookie patrolman in a highly dangerous decoy assignment?

Supposedly you are a Det. Sgt, but didn't have anyone in your squad that could perform the Decoy role?
Heck, he's also the only support element in what he has previously said was one of the most dangerous places in America to work in LE, and doesn't have access to a non-LE-identifiable unmarked unit. Doesn't sound like a very good officer to me, personally.

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Old 04-20-2010, 11:38   #163
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Heck, he's also the only support element in what he has previously said was one of the most dangerous places in America to work in LE, and doesn't have access to a non-LE-identifiable unmarked unit. Doesn't sound like a very good officer to me, personally.
It sure as hell is not the way we did decoy operations.
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:32   #164
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:46   #165
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Dave, we have had this discussion before. As I have mentioned , I am all for taking action IF certain criteria has been met. I'm not a shoot em up guns a blazin every time advocate but sometimes you have to do what ya gotta do. I started a thread awhile back of a fellow officer in my dept that did exactly that. Took on 3 armed robbers. He was undercover and in plain clothes.
You are very good at giving statistics and numbers. Thats fine and dandy but if you are on the receiving end of that small percentage it would suck. MTPD does make a few valid points. It is always good to have situational awareness and be prepared to act BUT have the common sense not to if its not in your (or others) best interest.
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Old 04-20-2010, 18:35   #166
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I was in my own private vehicle because in those days the BG's could recognize our unmarked police vehicles blocks away. When we didn't happen to have any confiscated vehicles available, we had to use our own personal vehicles on stake-outs/undercover ops if we didn't want to be "made".
There are some liability issues these days, your PD's and your personal insurance. Now we just rent a car and throw some plates on from the box.
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Old 04-21-2010, 07:10   #167
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There are some liability issues these days, your PD's and your personal insurance. Now we just rent a car and throw some plates on from the box.
You are luckier than we were! Our Chief wouldn't even let two of us detectives drive a city car to another city about 150 miles away to interview a suspect in an unsolved robbery/murder that happened in our city. He was too cheap! The case is still unsolved.

Would the PD pay for rental cars for under-cover ops? No way!

By the way, the unsolved robbery/murder involved a HOJO Motel night manager who lay face down on the floor, like a good little sheep, and was executed by the robber(s). Apparently the robbers/murderers hadn't read David's golden book of stats!!!
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Old 04-21-2010, 07:19   #168
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So let me get this straight, you put an inexperienced rookie patrolman in a highly dangerous decoy assignment?

Supposedly you are a Det. Sgt, but didn't have anyone in your squad that could perform the Decoy role?
Dragoon, nobody but rookies were foolish enough to volunteer to be armed robbery victims! This was especially so in this case, where previous victims had been cut. More experienced cops were too street-smart to put themselves in that kind of situation. I only ended up in it by accident.
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Old 04-21-2010, 07:24   #169
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I don't have to teach someone how to cook a pancake to point out that they have burned the one they cooked. You are the one that keeps claiming all this experience, many others, including me, keep pointing out that your claims and the way you say to do things conflicts with good tactics and the training that real police officers have. You want to continue posting bad advice and nonsense claims, go right ahead, but don't expect folks to let the nonsense slide by without pointing out that it is nonsense.
Ignorant criticism is so easy even my mother-in-law can do it!
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:52   #170
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As I have mentioned , I am all for taking action IF certain criteria has been met.
So am I. The questions become what type of action and what criteria. To me it is simple...almost all the available information out there indicates you start shooting as a last resort, not as a first option.
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:55   #171
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Ignorant criticism is so easy even my mother-in-law can do it!
You mean that even your untrained mother-in-law can recognize that most of your advice conflicts with good tactics and the training that real police officers have? That should tell you something right there.
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