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Old 04-09-2010, 22:22   #1
emt1581
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Multiple targets

I know in IDPA, for most situations, you have to be behind cover to take shots. But sometimes it would just be a matter of taking out multiple targets with one or two hits per target as accurately and quickly as possible.

It was something I was particularly good at. For example, they set up a "basketball" stage where you held a t-shirt balled up and shot it like a foul shot...then drew and shot targets at 9, 12 and then 3....putting two bullets in each target. I think I took third...and that was the first time I ever tried IDPA.

But what about different sized targets at different distances? The robotic point and shoot doesn't really work for that. What about what the targets have guns and your life (or your loved ones life) is on the line?

I know we act how we train, but are there any suggestions on tactics to defeating maybe 5 or 6 armed targets, most likely without the benefit of cover, in real world situations such as parking lots, side walks, and such?

Thanks!

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Old 04-09-2010, 22:55   #2
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As a general rule, if there are three of them and they press the attack you are going to lose barring some interesting tactics. That was the conclusion after some testing with the Feds (Secret Service, IIRC?) and independently by Walt Rauch. You can try stuff like stacking the BGs or some such, but generally with 3 or more opponents and no cover you are pretty much dependent on luck.
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Old 04-09-2010, 23:17   #3
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Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
As a general rule, if there are three of them and they press the attack you are going to lose barring some interesting tactics. That was the conclusion after some testing with the Feds (Secret Service, IIRC?) and independently by Walt Rauch. You can try stuff like stacking the BGs or some such, but generally with 3 or more opponents and no cover you are pretty much dependent on luck.
I guess having good luck in such a situation would mean that after seeing one or two of their friends drop, the rest run away...

Never heard of the testing you mentioned. Interesting though. I'm wondering how the logistics played out and how exactly they tested it?

Thanks!

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Old 04-10-2010, 09:02   #4
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The answer is to shoot FIRST, FAST & ACCURATE, only one shot per target the first time around without taking cover. Repeat as needed, after taking cover.

And it can be done successfully. For example, a San Dieago undercover cop working the border at night was being held at gunpoint by 3 armed Mexican felons. He "drew into the drop" and instantly put one .38 Special into each BG with a 2" S&W. They all dropped without any of them getting a shot off.

This unit was in so many shooting situations that they were eventually disbanded, probably to protect the Mexican robbers and rapists preying on helpless border jumpers and the PD's top brass frrom the cry-baby press. There was a book written about them and their adventures, forget the title.

So it can be done.

I remember another such shoot-out in Miami back when I was a FL cop. A jewelery store alarm went off and a lone patrolman responded. He dropped 2-3 armed robbers inside and when the last one fled, he followed and shot him dead on the sidewalk. His boss (probably David's father) suspended him for a week for endangering innocents because he had successfully taken a head shot at one of the robbers inside who was holding a hostage in front of himself as a shield, killing the armed robber. Nobody got hit but the BG's. If memory serves me correctly, all the BG's were DOA.

It turned out he was the Captain of the Miami PD Pistol team! He too was using a 38, probably with a 4" inch barrel. Us cops all chiped in and sent him money to make up for his one week's lost pay. It was his biggest pay check ever!

So...........it can be done, and done successfully. However, plan ahead and practice. And I would suggest carrying something with more power than a .38, even though .38's were effective in these two cases!
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Old 04-10-2010, 15:11   #5
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I know we act how we train, but are there any suggestions on tactics to defeating maybe 5 or 6 armed targets, most likely without the benefit of cover, in real world situations such as parking lots, side walks, and such?
Running is an option....a good one

Quote:
Never heard of the testing you mentioned. Interesting though. I'm wondering how the logistics played out and how exactly they tested it?
It was in one of the shooting rags years ago...I think it focused on the El Presidente drill iirc. They covered a few different variations and I believe they concluded you could get one routinely, two if very lucky, three not happening.
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Old 04-10-2010, 16:10   #6
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Running is an option....a good one



It was in one of the shooting rags years ago...I think it focused on the El Presidente drill iirc. They covered a few different variations and I believe they concluded you could get one routinely, two if very lucky, three not happening.
Now that three would be if they all had guns aimed at you though right?

Something I've always wondered is, so long as the BG's didn't actually know you and you were just a random target, is if you could pretend to be psychotic/mentally retarded and gain some sympathy? I don't mean that in any was as a jab at those who really have such difficulties. But in a life or death situation I'd crap myself and wear it as a hat if it would save me/my family.

I mean I've heard of a woman that was abducted and then he tried to rape her but she acted like a dog (crazy) and it confused him so she was able to get away....same line of thinking.

Mostly I'm going to start practicing with more targets and try to increase my speed while maintaining accuracy at the range.

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Old 04-10-2010, 21:40   #7
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Now that three would be if they all had guns aimed at you though right?
The original El Pres..

-3 silhouette targets are placed 1 meter apart in a line 10 meters from the shooter

-The shooter starts with 6 rounds in a holstered handgun, and a spare magazine or speedloader with another 6 rounds

-The shooter begins facing directly away from the targets, often with hands clasped in front or over the head.

-Upon the starting signal, the shooter turns and draws, fires 2 shots at each target, reloads, then fires two more shots at each target

I used to shoot it at a 5 meters and just face the target, no turning, hands above shoulder level...draw at the buzzer. On a blazing day I'd be in the mid 4 second range...12 shots, reload, from the holster (thumbreak Desantis).

However, that was "ideal" conditions on a one-way range. When the targets shoot-n-move things don't go so well. At least you get to practice a good first shot draw and target transition.
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Old 04-11-2010, 11:22   #8
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Now that three would be if they all had guns aimed at you though right?
No. Think about it. What would make you think that you can react, draw, and effectively engage 3 guys faster than someone else can react, draw and effectively engage 1 guy?
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Old 04-12-2010, 16:16   #9
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Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post

I know we act how we train, but are there any suggestions on tactics to defeating maybe 5 or 6 armed targets, most likely without the benefit of cover, in real world situations such as parking lots, side walks, and such?

Thanks!

-Emt1581
THis just isn't going to happen, not even for a top competative shooter. Caught in the open, 5-6 armed BGs, you will get some, but one will get you. Like stated earlier, you'll need a ton of luck. Shoot & move & hope they are ducking & don't get a lucky shot off.
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Old 04-12-2010, 17:33   #10
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emt1581,

Here is a test. Get three of your friends who shoot and have them bring their carry guns concealed.

Have them all shoot at the same target (representing you.) And you shoot at three targets (representing them.)

Now you get to draw first, again from concealment.

Now if you can hit all three before ANY one of them can hit your target, then maybe you might have a chance.

It all boils down to how good you are, how good they are, and who goes first as well as smaller things like tactical positioning (like stacking them before you start the ball, backlighting, distractions, obstructions, moving, etc....)

But I will say, unless you are an umber shot and they are piss poor, I’d put my money on them. One can prevail, but the odds are not good.

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Old 04-13-2010, 15:14   #11
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In addition to everything already stated (skill levels of all involved, luck etc.), if one is to successfully defeat 3 or more armed opponents, surprise or some other sort of edge, is required.

With surprise (and to varying degrees, luck), much is possible. Without surprise, very very difficult, if not impossible.

Please note I am not saying probable, merely possible.
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:27   #12
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Force on force, or speed-shooting contests to see who prevails, isn't realistic. Why not? Because in the real world the BG's aren't going to expect armed resistence, which means they are NOT going to be as alert or as fast as opponents in FonF or speed-shooting drills.

Steve has the answer, with surprise on your side it's possible to prevail against overwhelming odds, as long as you (unexpectedly) shoot first, fast and accurate with a powerful weapon.
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Old 04-15-2010, 19:28   #13
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Force on force, or speed-shooting contests to see who prevails, isn't realistic. Why not? Because in the real world the BG's aren't going to expect armed resistence, which means they are NOT going to be as alert or as fast as opponents in FonF or speed-shooting drills.

Steve has the answer, with surprise on your side it's possible to prevail against overwhelming odds, as long as you unexpectedly shoot first, fast and accurate with a powerful weapon.
The more progressive training programs employ simunitions/fx/paintball, the US Army has been using MILES gear for 20 years!

Force on force is how you build your stress inocculation, a major factor in how you'll perform under stress. If your training program doesn't include this theme, it's not "survival" based...imho

As far as the "unexpectedly shoot first, fast, and accurately", obviously this would represent the "ideal" situation. It's a mirror of the swat theory of speed, surprise, & violence of action...not much new here. My opinion is that this works great when you initiate an attack, but when the enemy is already in action do you think you're going to snipe someone? When there are multiple attackers in a scenario, any lead you develop will be eaten up as you move from target to target...you will likely get shot. A recommendation of moving to cover has resulted in a higher survival rate in the studies that have examined NYPD gunfights.

MTPD, did you ever shoot the drill where you step behind a barricade before engaging? It's been around for a while. I guess I'm just leaning toward the theory that a citizen's role will be predominantly "defend", not "attack". As such, engaging superior numbers, arms, etc is an excercise in self-sacrifice.

The Army attack to defend ratio is 3 to 1. Don't attack a position with less than 3. Granted, it doesn't fit this thread exactly, but you get the point. If you don't HAVE to intiate a gunfight, don't! If your life is about to end, go for it.

This stuff is too situational to address properly.
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Old 04-15-2010, 21:39   #14
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The more progressive training programs employ simunitions/fx/paintball, the US Army has been using MILES gear for 20 years!

Force on force is how you build your stress inocculation, a major factor in how you'll perform under stress. If your training program doesn't include this theme, it's not "survival" based...imho

As far as the "unexpectedly shoot first, fast, and accurately", obviously this would represent the "ideal" situation. It's a mirror of the swat theory of speed, surprise, & violence of action...not much new here. My opinion is that this works great when you initiate an attack, but when the enemy is already in action do you think you're going to snipe someone? When there are multiple attackers in a scenario, any lead you develop will be eaten up as you move from target to target...you will likely get shot. A recommendation of moving to cover has resulted in a higher survival rate in the studies that have examined NYPD gunfights.

MTPD, did you ever shoot the drill where you step behind a barricade before engaging? It's been around for a while. I guess I'm just leaning toward the theory that a citizen's role will be predominantly "defend", not "attack". As such, engaging superior numbers, arms, etc is an excercise in self-sacrifice.

The Army attack to defend ratio is 3 to 1. Don't attack a position with less than 3. Granted, it doesn't fit this thread exactly, but you get the point. If you don't HAVE to intiate a gunfight, don't! If your life is about to end, go for it.

This stuff is too situational to address properly.
If memory serves me, and it may not, I thought the OP was wanting to know what to do in up close & personal fast action shooting situations where you can't risk delaying your shots while seeking cover.

In touching distance shooting situations I consider speed the #1 priority.

As far as the "surprise" factor is concerned, that's why a like to carry a pocket pistol. That way the BG's are going to think I'm meekly handing over money, car keys, etc., when I'm really drawing.

As for cover, seeking cover before shooting is often a tactical mistake, especially when the BG's are up close, which in the case of robberies of civilians they most likely will be.
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Old 04-15-2010, 23:03   #15
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Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
I guess having good luck in such a situation would mean that after seeing one or two of their friends drop, the rest run away...

Never heard of the testing you mentioned. Interesting though. I'm wondering how the logistics played out and how exactly they tested it?

Thanks!

-Emt1581
That would only happen with undisiplined attackers with little or no training themselves.
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Old 04-15-2010, 23:05   #16
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Force on force, or speed-shooting contests to see who prevails, isn't realistic. Why not? Because in the real world the BG's aren't going to expect armed resistence, which means they are NOT going to be as alert or as fast as opponents in FonF or speed-shooting drills.

Steve has the answer, with surprise on your side it's possible to prevail against overwhelming odds, as long as you unexpectedly shoot first, fast and accurate with a powerful weapon.
Never underestimate your potential oppenents. Expect them to be as well versed as you or better. Force on Force is an excellent training tool. Its the closest thing we have to the real thing with current technology.
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:19   #17
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Never underestimate your potential oppenents. Expect them to be as well versed as you or better. Force on Force is an excellent training tool. Its the closest thing we have to the real thing with current technology.
Pat
I doubt many BG's will have trained to the level of skills I have in firearms. It would mean they've been to swat, counter sniper, counter terr formal training centers and have over 150 hours of advanced edged weapons training. Hardly likely.

Few BG's will have 39 years on firearms skills training and something over 400K in ammo down range from various semi and full auto firearms. When I meet a BG who is as well versed or better training and time on guns that I do, I'll buy him a beer.

In touching distance shooting situations I consider speed the #1
priority.


Yes sir

As for cover, seeking cover before shooting is often a tactical mistake, especially when the BG's are up close,


Yes sir.

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Old 04-16-2010, 08:51   #18
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Never underestimate your potential oppenents. Expect them to be as well versed as you or better. Force on Force is an excellent training tool. Its the closest thing we have to the real thing with current technology.
Pat
There is nothing wrong with FonF, it's excellent training. My point was some things that won't work in FonF, are more likely to work on the street. Why? Because you (should) have the advantage of SURPRISE! on the street, that you don't have in FonF drills where resistence is expected by your opponent.

Of course, I'm assuming you are well trained and capable of shooting fast and accurately.
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Old 04-16-2010, 10:00   #19
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I doubt many BG's will have trained to the level of skills I have in firearms.
But that can also be said of most people, not just BGs. The exception rarely proves the rule. And as a general rule Pat is right, one should expect their opponent to be as well trained as they are as the default position. That way when you run into a well-trained combat vet who has gone bad it doesn't come as a surprise.
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Old 04-16-2010, 10:24   #20
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But that can also be said of most people, not just BGs. The exception rarely proves the rule. And as a general rule Pat is right, one should expect their opponent to be as well trained as they are as the default position. That way when you run into a well-trained combat vet who has gone bad it doesn't come as a surprise.
Lots of combat vets have training, very little on handguns which you're going to run up on for the most part on the street Dave. I don't discount someone's ability but I still don't think any combat vet will have 39 years on handguns and the high level of training on them specifically.

You don't have to underestimate them but at the same time it will be a long time before I run up on someone with the time on handguns and the level of training I have in a BG. BG's aren't that dedicated.

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