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Old 05-01-2010, 16:57   #1
PghJim
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357 Sig Ranger T - Effective?

I came into the ownership of five new boxes of Ranger T 125gr 357 sig ammo and have been trying to find some information if an agency or police group use it and found it to be effective, meaning they are very happy with its performance in actual shootings. There is infomation out there that both Virginia and Texas state police are very pleased with the performance of 54234 Gold Dot 357 sig ammo in shootings that have occurred, but I have been unable to find anything on the Ranger T 357 sig. The 1,340 fps velocity does not seem that fast, but may not really be an indication of the rounds effectiveness.

If you know anything, I would be greatly appreciative. - Jim
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Old 05-01-2010, 17:25   #2
triggerjerk
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Have you tried looking at the le gel tests?
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx
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Old 05-01-2010, 17:45   #3
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Have you tried looking at the le gel tests?
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx
Wow, see how much the Gold Dot lost in expansion after heavy clothing? Almost .15"! Granted, the SXT lost some but not as much (and was larger in bare gelatin to begin with).
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Old 05-01-2010, 18:02   #4
PghJim
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Have you tried looking at the le gel tests?
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

Thanks, I have seen most of those. I am wondering if anyone is using it and what is their experience.
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Old 05-01-2010, 18:11   #5
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Wow, see how much the Gold Dot lost in expansion after heavy clothing? Almost .15"! Granted, the SXT lost some but not as much (and was larger in bare gelatin to begin with).
Even scarier than that is the Ranger T penetrating so shallow. Who wears 4 layers of denim? Either way, I would much rather have a little less expansion than an FBI/Miami scenario. Gold Dot has been VERY effective in this caliber in the real world.

If you just want expansion, buy 9mm 147gr HST. If you want to take full advantage of the extra velocity/penetration of the 357SIG, then get a bonded round. Otherwise it's just a waste of capacity and controllability.

Last edited by N/Apower; 05-01-2010 at 18:12..
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Old 05-01-2010, 18:13   #6
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Thanks, I have seen most of those. I am wondering if anyone is using it and what is their experience.
I am unaware of any agencies that use it, I am sure they exist, but I don't personally know of any. Let us know what you find if you dig further.
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Old 05-01-2010, 18:43   #7
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I believe the USSS uses it (or did at one time).
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Old 05-01-2010, 18:47   #8
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I believe the USSS uses it (or did at one time).
No, Gold Dot, product# 53918.
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Old 05-01-2010, 19:04   #9
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I believe the USSS uses it (or did at one time).
They did at one time. In fact the Ranger T was develpoded for a larger procurement by USSS. I did not know what they us now and I am a little surprised at the LP Gold Dot.
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Old 05-01-2010, 19:07   #10
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No, Gold Dot, product# 53918.
Please do not take this as an insult, but do you know that for a fact. The reason I said that was that a family member left the SS a couple of years ago and he told me at the time they were using the Ranger T. Due to the company around, I did not talk much about it and I am trying to locate him now.
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Old 05-01-2010, 20:01   #11
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i may be wrong but i think i remember hearing it was used with great success in NC.
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Old 05-01-2010, 21:06   #12
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Please do not take this as an insult, but do you know that for a fact. The reason I said that was that a family member left the SS a couple of years ago and he told me at the time they were using the Ranger T. Due to the company around, I did not talk much about it and I am trying to locate him now.
Caliber Corner
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Old 05-01-2010, 21:41   #13
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Caliber Corner
I am not sure what you are telling me. Was this an FBI test done for the USSS? I cannot read it all, but I am not questioning whether Gold Dots are good, I have been carrying them for the past years. Not much other choice early on anyway.

Winchester spent over one million dollars developing the Ranger T 357 sig round and their first big customer was the USSS. They do not exactly start from scratch and they would have had access to all of standard FBI methodology they wanted. Gold Dot's were out then so they knew where they stood with regard to penetration and expansion with the other bullets. Winchester designed this bullet to perform the way it does on purpose and that causes me to wonder why. The only way I am going to get that question answered is to hear about the experience with a somewhat large group that had somewhat frequent street shootings.

I enlaged it and see that it was an FBI test for USSS in 2001. If I remember correctly USSS signed a contract with Winchester for 1.6 million Ranger T rounds about that time or shortly before then. They may have used the Gold Dot, but I also know they used the Ranger. Do you have anything more recent then a ten year old test. It really does not matter in this quest usless they used the round and there is a published opinion of it's effectiveness.

Last edited by PghJim; 05-01-2010 at 21:52..
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Old 05-01-2010, 21:49   #14
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I am not sure what you are telling me. Was this an FBI test done for the USSS? I cannot read it all, but I am not questioning whether Gold Dots are good, I have been carrying them for the past years. Not much other choice early on anyway.

Winchester spent over one million dollars developing the Ranger T 357 sig round and their first big customer was the USSS. They do not exactly start from scratch and they would have had access to all of standard FBI methodology they wanted. Gold Dot's were out then so they knew where they stood with regard to penetration and expansion with the other bullets. Winchester designed this bullet to perform the way it does on purpose and that causes me to wonder why. The only way I am going to get that question answered is to hear about the experience with a somewhat large group that had somewhat frequent street shootings
I'm sorry for the crappy quality, but you can make out on the "Notes" section that it says "Secret Service Round". It's blurry, yes, but it is there.
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Old 05-01-2010, 21:49   #15
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They did at one time. In fact the Ranger T was develpoded for a larger procurement by USSS. I did not know what they us now and I am a little surprised at the LP Gold Dot.

They probably had to change to a more humane round once obama got in office. j/k
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Old 05-01-2010, 21:54   #16
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They probably had to change to a more humane round once obama got in office. j/k
Lol, they have used the Gold Dot for years. Note the "2001" date on that report I linked that denotes the USSS round as 53918.

Last edited by N/Apower; 05-01-2010 at 21:57..
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Old 05-01-2010, 21:55   #17
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I'm sorry for the crappy quality, but you can make out on the "Notes" section that it says "Secret Service Round". It's blurry, yes, but it is there.
I was editing while you were posting, see the bottom of my above post.
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Old 05-01-2010, 21:59   #18
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When you enlarge it, the performance does not look that great. Yes there is some penetration, but very little expansion. I am not sure I would carry the round with that little expansion. Even on Bare Gel. 0.64, much smaller in everything else.
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Old 05-01-2010, 22:05   #19
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I was editing while you were posting, see the bottom of my above post.
E-mail Hal Price of ATK and word your e-mail intelligently and you should get an answer within 24 hours. That is the best I can do there. However, everyone I know (Dr. Roberts, Todd Green, etc.) claim the USSS is using the 53918.
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Old 05-01-2010, 22:10   #20
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I believe they used .357 Ranger T at one time. Read it in an article by Mas Ayoob a few years back. I think I've seen it referenced else where. Googled it.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...82551648/pg_2/

Last edited by DRT; 05-01-2010 at 22:12..
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Old 05-02-2010, 00:47   #21
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E-mail Hal Price of ATK and word your e-mail intelligently and you should get an answer within 24 hours. That is the best I can do there. However, everyone I know (Dr. Roberts, Todd Green, etc.) claim the USSS is using the 53918.
Word my email intelligently???? You know I have not insulted you. The USSS may be using 53918 at this time, and I am not doubting that, but it is not my question! I am looking for someone who has or is using it and can tell me how effective it is. I do not think that ATK will give a glowing report of a Winchester product.
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Old 05-02-2010, 00:51   #22
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I believe they used .357 Ranger T at one time. Read it in an article by Mas Ayoob a few years back. I think I've seen it referenced else where. Googled it.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...82551648/pg_2/


Thank you!!! I see that the USSS has used them at least in 2002. Gee that is after the FBI 2001 test (see I can not be insulting even when I try). Only the Thank you was meant for you DRT.

Last edited by PghJim; 05-02-2010 at 01:31..
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:09   #23
N/Apower
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Word my email intelligently???? You know I have not insulted you. The USSS may be using 53918 at this time, and I am not doubting that, but it is not my question! I am looking for someone who has or is using it and can tell me how effective it is. I do not think that ATK will give a glowing report of a Winchester product.
Yes, you are a non LE officer inquiring to the head of the LE division of ATK what the US Secret Service uses. I think that my admonition was a good one.

{Resisting the urge to ACTUALLY insult you}

I feel kindof bad about your inability to satisfy your quandry. I have looked over your messages and think that english may be your second language, thus you mis-understood the context of the word "intelligently". Lets put it this way: I don't load the Ranger T, and nobody I have spoken to would either if they had a choice of the Gold Dot in this caliber, including Dr. Roberts, and Todd Green.

Last edited by N/Apower; 05-02-2010 at 02:46..
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:47   #24
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Yes, you are a non LE officer inquiring to the head of the LE division of ATK what the US Secret Service uses. I think that my admonition was a good one. I did not mean for you to use correct spelling and punctiation and a clauses. I meant for you to use a bit of social engineering to get the information.
I appeciate your thought, but I report to the CEO of a Fortune 200 company and understand how to properly phrase an email to the head of the LE division of ATK. In fact I just sent an email to the head of the LE division of Olin. It is insulting and I am telling you not because I am insulted. I actually like you and you generally contribute good things on the forum. I am telling you so you do not insult someone who may not realize you were inferring advice that a carefully worded corporate-style letter will probably yield a better and faster respose.

Anyway, look at the quote I found:

"He also had an opportunity to review the USSS shooting files. They use the Ranger 125 grain load and report itís the most effective pistol cartridge the USSS has ever been issued. The USSS has had four failures, all with Speer practice ammo. They are now using Winchester clean fire practice ammo."

Not much, but a start. We will see if my writing skills were up the task of promting Winchester to give me some information. Just so you know, I really do not care what the USSS is using now. I am just looking for subjective analysis from people who know of actual usage of the Ranger T.

That bullet was designed to have a particular effect that I do not think will show on the FBI-type protocol test.

What are you doing up anyway?
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:58   #25
PghJim
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I feel kindof bad about your inability to satisfy your quandry. I have looked over your messages and think that english may be your second language, thus you mis-understood the context of the word "intelligently". Lets put it this way: I don't load the Ranger T, and nobody I have spoken to would either if they had a choice of the Gold Dot in this caliber, including Dr. Roberts, and Todd Green.

You know, just when I bury the hatchet you tell me that English is my second language. If you do not have the answer it is OK. I have loaded and carried Gold Dot for 10 years. It is a good bullet, but there may be something better even if the Doc and Todd do not know about it. I have given you no reason for the comments you have made. I am asking a simple question, and trying not to let my use of GD interfere with my ability to get a useful answer.

Last edited by PghJim; 05-02-2010 at 03:00..
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