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Old 05-06-2010, 09:42   #26
Natty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy123 View Post
True, you cannot find any nation's flag that hasn't had some horrible attorcieties committed under it.

But the CSA battle flag is different, in that it's purpose was to preserve the legal right to do those things.
Andy, in 1857 just before the war, Under which flag and which Supreme Court did the Dred Scott v. Sandford, decision come?

What did that decision say?
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:46   #27
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I think marksiwel was closest to the answer with this...

"The problem with the symbol isnt that normal healthy minded people use it, the problem is that its used for all the wrong things"

Bad people have given the flag a bad name, and has tarnished it for use by those who would use it in display of their Southern pride/heritage.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:47   #28
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
Andy, in 1857 just before the war, Under which flag and which Supreme Court did the Dred Scott v. Sandford, decision come?

What did that decision say?
Natty, honestly, are you goign to try to say with a straight face that the issue that drove the states apart, the issue that pushed the south to believe that their economic survivial depended upon seccession, was anything other than slavery?

Sorry, it just don't wash. And yes, I do realize that at times, slavery was legal under many flags, but by 1860 change was in the air. THe south didn't want to change, so the made a new flag, and fought to preserve the status quo. They lost and the laws changed. Yes the war was brutal, with great brutality, but in the end the laws changed. Without a doubt these changes led to many legal, unintended consequeses that we still live with today. Some good, some bad. Such is almost always the nature of exercising government power.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:52   #29
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Originally Posted by travclem View Post
Hitler had nothing to do with the CSA, and last time I checked the CSA had nothing to do with genocide. the last thing we need is for gun owners to start getting bleeding hearts and crying about this nonsense, Some of us are the only sane people left. If anything the people who are *****ing should thank the CSA for bringing their ancestors to America, So they can sit at home today, smoke crack, and live off the gov't.
This is probably the most ignorant post I have ever seen on GlockTalk. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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Old 05-06-2010, 09:57   #30
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Originally Posted by marksiwel View Post
Whats funny is the Klan didnt really use this flag untill the 1950s, before that they used Uncle Sam, and the American flag among other American symbols.
I think that's the main problem. The classic "Rebel" flag was the battle flag of the Confederate Army and as such it used to be a largely non-political symbol denoting a rebellious fighting spirit and general disdain for authority.

It wasn't really a symbol of racism until the KKK started usurping it in the mid-late 1950s and the Neo-Nazis started waving it around in the 1970s and 80s.

If we Southerners want someone to blame for the Rebel Flag becoming associated with modern-day racism, we should be blaming the Klan and Neo Nazis.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:57   #31
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Originally Posted by Andy123 View Post
Natty, honestly, are you goign to try to say with a straight face that the issue that drove the states apart, the issue that pushed the south to believe that their economic survivial depended upon seccession, was anything other than slavery?

Sorry, it just don't wash. And yes, I do realize that at times, slavery was legal under many flags, but by 1860 change was in the air. THe south didn't want to change, so the made a new flag, and fought to preserve the status quo. They lost and the laws changed. Yes the war was brutal, with great brutality, but in the end the laws changed. Without a doubt these changes led to many legal, unintended consequeses that we still live with today. Some good, some bad. Such is almost always the nature of exercising government power.
Andy, some states still slavery after the war was over, were they Confederate or Union.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:58   #32
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Originally Posted by travclem View Post
Hitler had nothing to do with the CSA, and last time I checked the CSA had nothing to do with genocide. the last thing we need is for gun owners to start getting bleeding hearts and crying about this nonsense, Some of us are the only sane people left. If anything the people who are *****ing should thank the CSA for bringing their ancestors to America, So they can sit at home today, smoke crack, and live off the gov't.
You sir, make me ashamed that you are also a Fellow Texan
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:59   #33
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Last time I checked, no one called Germany "the land of the free".
I love ya bro, but thats not what he's saying... He's saying that Hitler took a country that was crushed and made it great again.. People in Germany had high regard for their leader, the Fuhrer. Sure, it wasn't a democracy or a republic, it was facism however, argue it or not, many people didn't mind... majority anyway. How many don't agree with half of what the Federal Government does but stay here anyway? Much akin to Nazi Germany..


I remember when Soldiers, US Soldiers were being spit on, **** on and pissed on by their countrymen... They'd go to war, paying debts they felt they had, kicking ass, taking names, burying friends, trying to put friends back together in a place called Vietnam.. Only to come home to another war. They were seen as outcasts, scumbags, derilicts, baby killers, much like the Nazi's in Germany..

Now, every soldier here gets a military discount, they're regarded highly no matter what branch, what service, what discipline.... What happened there?...


I think the change in the flag is typical revolution of beliefs. Any country, any movement, any beliefs can be changed radically overtime...

In 1987 if you didn't spend 2 cans of hairspray on your hair, dress up like a chick and play a fluorescent colored guitar, you couldn't play out in bars.
Now, if you do, you're a ******. Go figure right?

Time changes all things. ALL things. The sooner you realize that, the better your life will be.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:01   #34
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Originally Posted by GroovyChristian View Post
If you're going to make gross overstatements, at least put a <hyperbole> tag around it.
If I make a gross overstatement I would to that. Have you never heard of the March to the Sea? Do you not know who William Tecumseh Sherman was? If the North was all noble and altruistic and the war was all about freeing the slaves then why did he burn slaves to death? The north was not doing so well against the south and needed a different strategy. So they chose what we would call today "terrorism". Remember this wasn't a civil war. The south was not fighting for control of the nation. They were fighting to leave the nation. It was a War of Northern Aggression. And don't think I am some southerner and this is about southern pride. I am not. I just read history at a little greater depth than what was handed out in the public school system.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:02   #35
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I think that's the main problem. The classic "Rebel" flag was the battle flag of the Confederate Army and as such it used to be a largely non-political symbol denoting a rebellious fighting spirit and general disdain for authority.

It wasn't really a symbol of racism until the KKK started usurping it in the mid-late 1950s and the Neo-Nazis started waving it around in the 1970s and 80s.

If we Southerners want someone to blame for the Rebel Flag becoming associated with modern-day racism, we should be blaming the Klan and Neo Nazis.
Yep. I have no problem with the Flag as it was, but basically its been warped in such a way that its no longer viable for me to use/wear it to express the point I was hoping for.

I just use the Texas Flag, or the American flag, or the Dont Tread on Me, or Come and Take it.
Sadly the CSA Flag is retired as a symbol for me.

There are better movements for "States Rights" then the CSA Battle-flag that dredge up America's darkest period and its most evil institution.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:02   #36
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Originally Posted by marksiwel View Post
I remember a Military man, who loved his country and fought for it. Afterward his country was poor and broke and being blamed for the War.
But he rebuilt his country, made it an Industrial power, gave the people jobs and their pride back. Helped them put food on the table. He also got their land that was stolen from them.
but that was Hitler.
Should Germans put Swastikas on their Volkswagens in honor of "German Pride"?

WTF?

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Old 05-06-2010, 10:06   #37
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Originally Posted by Trigun View Post
If I make a gross overstatement I would to that. Have you never heard of the March to the Sea? Do you not know who William Tecumseh Sherman was? If the North was all noble and altruistic and the war was all about freeing the slaves then why did he burn slaves to death? The north was not doing so well against the south and needed a different strategy. So they chose what we would call today "terrorism". Remember this wasn't a civil war. The south was not fighting for control of the nation. They were fighting to leave the nation. It was a War of Northern Aggression. And don't think I am some southerner and this is about southern pride. I am not. I just read history at a little greater depth than what was handed out in the public school system.
Who said the NORTH was about Freeing Slaves, so far the points have been about the SOUTH Fighting to KEEP Slaves.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:06   #38
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I don't know which came first, the left hating that flag or the ****** bag racist morons using that flag as a symbol.

Either way, the symbol is pretty much ruined which is a shame.

The swastika was originally (among other things) a Japanese religious symbol. After the Nazis hijacked it, even the Japs stopped displaying it in the West (after losing the war).

Like it or not, no matter which side is to blame, that flag currently symbolizes hate and slavery to most people.

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Old 05-06-2010, 10:08   #39
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Originally Posted by syntaxerrorsix View Post
WTF?

Shouldnt the Germans be proud that someone stood up for them and cast aside the unfair shackles of the Treaty of Versailles, helping make Germany Great again?
I mean if we can ignore Slavery in the CSA, then we can ignore the Holocaust right?
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:08   #40
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Does anyone else find it odd that none of these guys making the slavery argument has said anything about the North owning slaves as well?
Slavery was not just something that occurred in the south.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:08   #41
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Originally Posted by marksiwel View Post
War is Hell -William Tecumseh Sherman
"There is a class of people men, women and children, [of the South] who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order."

...William T Sherman in a June 21, 1864, letter to Lincoln's Secretary of War, Edwin Stanton.

If anyone wants to idolize cold blooded murderers and Terrorists so be it.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:09   #42
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Originally Posted by Mushinto View Post
I don't know which came first, the left hating that flag or the ****** bag racist morons using that flag as a symbol. I think this one was first

Either way, the symbol is pretty much ruined which is a shame.

The swastika was originally (among other things) a Japanese religious symbol. After the Nazis hijacked it, even the Japs stopped displaying it in the West (after losing the war).

Like it or not, no matter which side is to blame, that flag currently symbolizes hate and slavery to most people.

ML
Basically yeah. There are better symbols that are less controversial
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:10   #43
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Originally Posted by marksiwel View Post
Yep. I have no problem with the Flag as it was, but basically its been warped in such a way that its no longer viable for me to use/wear it to express the point I was hoping for.

I just use the Texas Flag, or the American flag, or the Dont Tread on Me, or Come and Take it.
Sadly the CSA Flag is retired as a symbol for me.

There are better movements for "States Rights" then the CSA Battle-flag that dredge up America's darkest period and its most evil institution.
I'll agree with the "darkest period" part, but as ugly as slavery was, I'd still have to rank the legitimized genocide of most of America's native population to support a land-grab as our most 'evil institution'.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:10   #44
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
"There is a class of people men, women and children, [of the South] who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order."

...William T Sherman in a June 21, 1864, letter to Lincoln's Secretary of War, Edwin Stanton.

If anyone wants to idolize cold blooded murderers and Terrorists so be it.
oh he was a jackass alright, no doubt about it.
But hey, he got the job done right?
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:10   #45
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http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/fea..._proclamation/


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The Emancipation Proclamation
President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863, as the nation approached its third year of bloody civil war. The proclamation declared "that all persons held as slaves" within the rebellious states "are, and henceforward shall be free."

Despite this expansive wording, the Emancipation Proclamation was limited in many ways. It applied only to states that had seceded from the Union, leaving slavery untouched in the loyal border states. It also expressly exempted parts of the Confederacy that had already come under Northern control. Most important, the freedom it promised depended upon Union military victory.

Although the Emancipation Proclamation did not end slavery in the nation, it captured the hearts and imagination of millions of Americans and fundamentally transformed the character of the war. After January 1, 1863, every advance of federal troops expanded the domain of freedom. Moreover, the Proclamation announced the acceptance of black men into the Union Army and Navy, enabling the liberated to become liberators. By the end of the war, almost 200,000 black soldiers and sailors had fought for the Union and freedom.

From the first days of the Civil War, slaves had acted to secure their own liberty. The Emancipation Proclamation confirmed their insistence that the war for the Union must become a war for freedom. It added moral force to the Union cause and strengthened the Union both militarily and politically. As a milestone along the road to slavery's final destruction, the Emancipation Proclamation has assumed a place among the great documents of human freedom.

The original of the Emancipation Proclamation of January 1, 1863, is in the National Archives in Washington, DC. With the text covering five pages the document was originally tied with narrow red and blue ribbons, which were attached to the signature page by a wafered impression of the seal of the United States. Most of the ribbon remains; parts of the seal are still decipherable, but other parts have worn off.

The document was bound with other proclamations in a large volume preserved for many years by the Department of State. When it was prepared for binding, it was reinforced with strips along the center folds and then mounted on a still larger sheet of heavy paper. Written in red ink on the upper right-hand corner of this large sheet is the number of the Proclamation, 95, given to it by the Department of State long after it was signed. With other records, the volume containing the Emancipation Proclamation was transferred in 1936 from the Department of State to the National Archives of the United States.
For all those who think slavery ended when the war did.

Slavery was not outlawed till December 6, 1865, with the adoption of the 13th amendment. The Emancipation Proclamation was signed Jan 1, 1863.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:13   #46
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
Under which flag was there slavery for 90 years?

Under which flag was there slavery for 4 years?
Not to mention, under which flag was slavery made illegal last? Hint: it wasn't the CSA.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:13   #47
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The Furball Forum

So Marksiwel, do you hate the American flag too?
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:13   #48
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Originally Posted by marksiwel View Post
Shouldnt the Germans be proud that someone stood up for them and cast aside the unfair shackles of the Treaty of Versailles, helping make Germany Great again?
I mean if we can ignore Slavery in the CSA, then we can ignore the Holocaust right?
Slavery was not what the war was fought over or about.

There is absolutely no way I can un-teach what years of public education has drilled into you. I won't even try.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:13   #49
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Does anyone else find it odd that none of these guys making the slavery argument has said anything about the North owning slaves as well?
Slavery was not just something that occurred in the south.
They cant face the truth about slavery in the North for 200 years going back to the Colonial days and still having slavery in the Union States after all the Confederate slaves were free.

They cant even answer simple questions I posted in post #23 and #31.

Last edited by Natty; 05-06-2010 at 10:14..
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:14   #50
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Originally Posted by Natty View Post
"There is a class of people men, women and children, [of the South] who must be killed or banished before you can hope for peace and order."

...William T Sherman in a June 21, 1864, letter to Lincoln's Secretary of War, Edwin Stanton.

If anyone wants to idolize cold blooded murderers and Terrorists so be it.
What he meant was that there was a class of free people in the South who must be killed or banished before you can hope to institutionalize the primacy of the federal government and it's thirst for taxes over the liberty of the individual.
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