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Old 05-07-2010, 15:00   #1
plasticpistol
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357sig vs 9mm bullets? Is there a difference?

New to reloading...

can one load up the 357sig 125gr gold dot into 9mm? Could one load the 124gr gold dot 9mm into 357sig case? If not why? If so why do they separate them?

357sig bullets - http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballist...nd=0&firearm=2

9mm/38auto/380acp http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballist...nd=0&firearm=2
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Old 05-07-2010, 16:29   #2
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The only real difference is that you cannot use round nose bullets in the .357 SIG because you cannot get a crimp on them. I now use truncated nose bullets for both my 9mm and .357 SIG.
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Old 05-07-2010, 16:59   #3
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I have heard that the .357 Sig bullets are slightly thicker in the jacket to deal with the higher velocities. Whether or not this is true, I dont know, just grapevine info...

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Old 05-07-2010, 23:29   #4
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It varies from manufacturer, but the rounds designed specifically for .357 Sig were made with retained weight in mind and whether or not the manufacturer felt some degree of fragmentation was acceptable. So, yes, rounds designed for .357 Sig are different from 9mm rounds.
Federal's original round for .357 Sig was designed to stay intact (unlike it's .357 Magnum round which fragmented). "The Federal version of the .357 Sig 125 grain JHP uses a thicker jacket with a special anneal to make it softer and less brittle. The bullet also uses a harder high antimony core compared to the 125 grain JHP used by Federal in its .357 Magnum load. ..... However, the Cor Bon round shows fragmentation in gelatin like the revolver fired .357 Magnum 125 grain JHPs always did. ..... CCI Speer uses this same basic .357 Magnum Gold Dot Bullet in its .357 Sig load. "

"Hornady was the first to design a line of bullets specifically to pass the FBIs eight barrier test protocol. The company's approach was to actually suppress hollowpoint expansion and totally eliminate fragmentation. As a result of designing a late-energy release load, the actual and estimated stopping power from most XTP bullets has been lower than many other premium or even standard hollowpoints. Hornady has tweaked the XTP for a little more expansion and a little less penetration, but as a rule, these are still the least expanding hollowpoints available.
The .357 sig solves that completely. This powerful new caliber pushes both the 124 and 147 grain well beyond their minimum expansion velocities. "

So, at a glance, some manufacturers simply came out with a .355 diameter version of their .357 magnum bullets. Others redesigned their .357 magnum bullets to fullfill certain criteria. In no case, did they base their .357 Sig rounds on a 9mm design. The .357 Sig round simply has too much velocity and the degree of fragmentation needs to be a design consideration.
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Old 05-08-2010, 15:06   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticpistol
so in otherwords if you loaded up 9mm bullets into the sig case they woudl likely fragment as they aren't designed for the higher velocity.
I'm pretty sure that this is what will happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plasticpistol
and if you loaded the 357sig rds into 9mm they wouldn't expand as much as they should.
I pulled my data from an article in the book "Street Stoppers" by Marshall and Sanow.

I don't think all the Sig bullets are designed to be late opening. I think the Hornady bullets were failure prone and tended to open up satisfactorily with the .357 Sig velocities.

So, your thread got me thinking and I went to midwayusa.com and I looked for .357 Sig bullets under reloading and there was nothing. But all the loaded ammunition I described from the article seemed to be there. Kind of frustrating.
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Old 05-08-2010, 23:15   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BurkGlocker View Post
I have heard that the .357 Sig bullets are slightly thicker in the jacket to deal with the higher velocities. Whether or not this is true, I dont know, just grapevine info...

BG
The design of most 357s specific bullets is diff. In the case of the GD, they have shallow cup point type HP for slower expansion. You can shoot many 9mm designed bullets in the 357sig for paper, but performance on animate targets may suffer because of fragmentation. Bullets must be of TC deisgn to allow proper neck tension unless you get into 100gr & lighter bullets. Then a RN style will still work. The dia are the same, so you can load & shoot 357sig bulelt in the 9mm, but again, terminal rpeformance may suffer. In the case of the XP, I think the extra vel helps the bullet expande better. I've driven them to 1350fps+ & they still hold together.
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Old 05-09-2010, 10:51   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
In the case of the XP, I think the extra vel helps the bullet expande better. I've driven them to 1350fps+ & they still hold together.
In the Hornady XTP, are you describing a .355 bullet which could be used for either 9mm or .357 Sig.
I think Hornady is fazing the XTP out and I've noticed this bullet is on sale at Midway (in 10mm).
Do you know if the 10mm version of the XTP holds together at high velocities?

How about the Nosler Sporting Handgun Bullets? Do these hold together at high velocity in .357 Sig? 10MM?
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Old 05-09-2010, 10:58   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervaDoe View Post
In the Hornady XTP, are you describing a .355 bullet which could be used for either 9mm or .357 Sig.
I think Hornady is fazing the XTP out and I've noticed this bullet is on sale at Midway (in 10mm).
Do you know if the 10mm version of the XTP holds together at high velocities?
I doubt they are phasing out the XTP, more likley redesinging it a bit. It wouldn't surprise me if they started making a bonded version. As to the 10mm, I haven't run any XTP expansion test. I have some newer 155gr that I haven't worked up loads or yet. My exp w/ other calibers in the XTP is you can get great perfromance by dropping a bullet wt (ie, 200grXTP in the 45acp penetrates about like most 230grJHP, still w/ 65cal+ expansion). I started carrying BlackHills 124gr+P ammo in my G26. It makes 1220fps, expands to 67cal in denim covered wetpack, accurate, affordable, old school, yeah, so am I.
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:34   #9
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Thanks. Great information.
I ordered two hundred 155 grain XTPs for my 10mm after reading your post. I was on the fence, but your post made the case for trying some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I started carrying BlackHills 124gr+P ammo in my G26. It makes 1220fps, expands to 67cal in denim covered wetpack, accurate, affordable, old school, yeah, so am I.
So, a quick Internet search confirms the Black Hills 124gr+P ammo uses a Hornady XTP.
Also very good information.
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Old 05-09-2010, 16:39   #10
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Now that Hornady has a 'super-premium' bullet, the FTX, the retail prices on the XTPs are lower. Midway sells the 124g. for $14.99 and had it on sale for $14.19; I ordered 10 boxes.

I've used the 155g. in my 40 and tested it.

Reloading

Altho the GoldDot and PDX1 looked a little 'better' in my waterjug tests, I still chose the XTP.

I just started reloading a 357SIG and again chose the XTP; it's a fine PD bullet.
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Old 05-09-2010, 17:10   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreybehr View Post
Now that Hornady has a 'super-premium' bullet, the FTX, the retail prices on the XTPs are lower. Midway sells the 124g. for $14.99 and had it on sale for $14.19; I ordered 10 boxes.

I've used the 155g. in my 40 and tested it.

Reloading

Altho the GoldDot and PDX1 looked a little 'better' in my waterjug tests, I still chose the XTP.

I just started reloading a 357SIG and again chose the XTP; it's a fine PD bullet.
Now that is just downright impressive. My hat's off to you.
I have some of the 135 grain Nosler's on backorder. Did the jacket peel off? It sort of looks like they held together at 1189 fps.
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Old 05-09-2010, 23:43   #12
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Minerva, TYVM.

One sample of the Nosler 135 separated completely; one was about to. If you want a 'fragmenter', this is the one. Those are 2 XTPs on the left and the much-vaunted-but-highly-disappointing Remington Golden Sabers in the center.

Reloading

Some say that testing in water in HIGHLY NONindicative of how a bullet performs in the bodies of badguys. They MAY be right, but I'll still take a bullet that expands, penetrates, and stays together in highly homogeneous jugs of water to one that doesn't.

FWIW, I'll have some pics of 124g. 0.3555" XTPs shot into water at c. 1400FPS tomorrow.
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Old 05-10-2010, 00:04   #13
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Quote:
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Minerva, TYVM.

One sample of the Nosler 135 separated completely; one was about to. If you want a 'fragmenter', this is the one. Those are 2 XTPs on the left and the much-vaunted-but-highly-disappointing Remington Golden Sabers in the center.

Reloading

Some say that testing in water in HIGHLY NONindicative of how a bullet performs in the bodies of badguys. They MAY be right, but I'll still take a bullet that expands, penetrates, and stays together in highly homogeneous jugs of water to one that doesn't.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Those XTPs look perfect. 1156 fps, right? Now I'm on the fence about the 135 grain Noslers. I guess there are worse things than shedding a jacket, so I'll leave them on backorder. Also, the .357 magnums against which all other self defense bullets are compared did fragment (I believe). It wasn't until some major LE agencies introduced retained mass as a measurement criteria that the non fragmenting stuff really appeared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreybehr View Post
FWIW, I'll have some pics of 124g. 0.3555" XTPs shot into water at c. 1400FPS tomorrow.
I think that's worth a lot. My 10mm 155 grain XTPs shipped today (five hour turn around from Midway on a Sunday is impressive) and I won't be shooting them at anywhere near 1,400 fps, so if they hold together, my upper fps limit won't be determined by fragmentation issues (just how fast I want to push them).
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Old 05-10-2010, 12:08   #14
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Quote:
One sample of the Nosler 135 separated completely; one was about to. If you want a 'fragmenter', this is the one. Those are 2 XTPs on the left and the much-vaunted-but-highly-disappointing Remington Golden Sabers in the center.
The jacket doesn't weigh much more than 30gr, so even it the 165grRGS spearates, it does so late in the penetration process & the 135gr core still penetrates. Drive them at 1250fps, & you'll see less separation IME in wetpack at least. Water is tough on bullets @ high vel. There is very little give on initial impact.
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Old 05-10-2010, 17:50   #15
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Minerva, I posted the results of my bullet-expansion tests...

...in the 357SIG Club.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1219140
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Old 05-15-2010, 21:20   #16
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
The design of most 357s specific bullets is diff. In the case of the GD, they have shallow cup point type HP for slower expansion. You can shoot many 9mm designed bullets in the 357sig for paper, but performance on animate targets may suffer because of fragmentation. Bullets must be of TC deisgn to allow proper neck tension unless you get into 100gr & lighter bullets. Then a RN style will still work. The dia are the same, so you can load & shoot 357sig bulelt in the 9mm, but again, terminal rpeformance may suffer. In the case of the XP, I think the extra vel helps the bullet expande better. I've driven them to 1350fps+ & they still hold together.
Have you tried loading the .357cal, 125gr XTP? It has a much wider operating range than the 124gr, plus it has a cannelure. I really like both the 125gr XTP and 140gr XTP in .38Super, but the 124gr (upper 1300s) has given real life, Hammer of Thor terminal performance against four-legged predators head on, very short distances.

Bob
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Old 05-15-2010, 23:01   #17
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Have you tried loading the .357cal, 125gr XTP? It has a much wider operating range than the 124gr, plus it has a cannelure. I really like both the 125gr XTP and 140gr XTP in .38Super, but the 124gr (upper 1300s) has given real life, Hammer of Thor terminal performance against four-legged predators head on, very short distances.

Bob
Thnaks, yes I have, I like the 124grXTP @ 1300fps+. Itgets expansion up where I like it & still penetrates well. It's loaded in the BH 9mm/124gr+P to 1220fps in my G26. Pretty close to what you can get out of a G33.
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Old 05-16-2010, 21:09   #18
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Thnaks, yes I have, I like the 124grXTP @ 1300fps+. Itgets expansion up where I like it & still penetrates well. It's loaded in the BH 9mm/124gr+P to 1220fps in my G26. Pretty close to what you can get out of a G33.
I haven't had any real world experiences to test the 125gr XTP. The 124gr XTP has a 9mm operating design spread of 750fps to 1200fps, overclock 20% and it's MV is 1440fps. I'm past that overclock velocity with the .38Super, so it's the 125gr (357mag designed for 850fps to 1600fps) that gets loaded.

Bob
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