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Old 05-18-2010, 17:18   #1
mercop
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Defending against the low line power stab

This is one of the most deadly attacks you can face with an edged weapon. Here is boothdoc showing us exactly what not to do. This is exactly what someone with no exposure to training will do. The will respond by being up on their toes, leaning forward, and grab hold of the weapon hand. When the thumb are involved in a grip the muscles have two choices....push or pull. In this case neither works and task fixation sets in and they are stuck on the X and usually just ride the weapon into their stomach.

Tactics and Training

Here is a picture of a student (Stormin Normin) defending against Unloved. He is using our Principle Based Respond. He extends the base of his palms creating a hard target for the forearm of the attacker to smash into. Although this really hurts the attacker in training in real life what is makes it effective is hitting a huge nerve bundle inside the forearm. This often leads to a dropped weapon. By not using his thumb he is able to redirect the attack and move to the outside as the attacker powers towards him. At this point is is able to get away or finish his attack from behind.

Tactics and Training

Both are "minute in time" pictures and show students pressure testing the tactic at combat speed against 350,000 volt stun guns.- George
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Old 05-18-2010, 17:59   #2
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In Krav Maga they do a downward block as used in most martial arts while sort of jumping/skipping backwards (so you are like the guys in the picture above) The reason they don't grab is they practice as if the attack was unexpected and thus an emergency move.

But...

Once they confound the attack they lock the guys arm with the stun gun/knife and knee/elbow/kick them to pieces.

In TKD they grab rather like the photos above and then proceed to do an armlock by swinging under the attacking arm from the outside and lifthing the locked elbow with the shoudler to break it (but that' don't work with real tall people.)

In MMA they would, after blocking, drop underneith and do a takedown.

In IPSC/IDPA, after being shocked a bunch, they would try to draw....

Deaf
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Old 05-18-2010, 18:19   #3
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Deaf, this is definitely a "caught with your pants down" response. We have a very high success rate with it though.

Here is some video of it, in this case my back is against the wall so I need to create space to move forward.
http://www.moderncombativesystems.com/docs/video8.htm
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:05   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
In IPSC/IDPA, after being shocked a bunch, they would try to draw....
In ISPC (USPSA)/IDPA the would have blocked or secured the arm, or scooted backwards creating distance and drawn in the same moment then emptied the magazine into the attack in the next second or two.


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Old 05-19-2010, 12:40   #5
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In ISPC (USPSA)/IDPA the would have blocked or secured the arm, or scooted backwards creating distance and drawn in the same moment then emptied the magazine into the attack in the next second or two.

Boy would I love to put that to the test.
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Old 05-19-2010, 14:06   #6
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Boy would I love to put that to the test.


eta:

Come on down to San Antonio. We'll visit the Alamo, have some drinks on the Riverwalk. The next day we'll go on out to the range with some airsoft. I know just the guys who'll be happy to work out the test with ya. I got 9 guys in mind, we'll run ya... er, it through the ringer and see what washes out.

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Old 05-19-2010, 14:39   #7
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I may get down there in the next six months or so and will bring my stun gun
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Old 05-19-2010, 20:34   #8
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Try this next time you have a FOF and want to stop the stun gun.

Using your right hand open it and make a very wide 'V' with your thumb and the index finger. Now do the same thing with your left hand. Place the right hand thumb over the left index finger and right index finger over the left thumb.

You will notice it makes and even bigger 'V'. Now when an opponent tries to stick you with the stun gun (or knife or broken bottle or screwdriver, etc..) have your hands in front of you and bring them down into that 'V' while grabbing their forearm, preferably near the wrist.

You can then clamp on the arm, hopefully at the wrist, which is a kind of rectangle, and perform one of several maneuvers. You can

a) hold onto the wrist with your right hand (presuming they used their right) and rotate your left hand and bring the left side elbow around and get an arm bar style lock (I call it ‘steer wrestling’ or

b) bring the locked arm up while stepping underneath and laying the opponents arm on your shoulder and then standing up (in effect another arm bar lock.) or

c) slide your left hand up to the forearm while stepping your left leg forward, then right leg to near the left and drop your weight (as in ‘the Red Zone’.)

Anyway, as long as you have that strong two handed ‘V’ you can funnel their attacking arm into a trap. Works with a slashing or overhead knife to.

Deaf
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Old 05-19-2010, 21:49   #9
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Quote:
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I may get down there in the next six months or so and will bring my stun gun
PM me in advance or call the TN listed on my profile.

Don't forget a cup and a mouth piece. Maybe a red man suit if ya got one- though we won't be using that during the use of sims or airsoft but for the full force reactions to the knife attack.

When we did this in my dojo and at the SO we made sure the attacker understood he was was gonna get when he attempted to give. It tended to change the attitude of the attacker a bit.

Understand that you won't be dictating every situation so that it can't but help prove poor dumb USPSA/IDPA guys are ill prepared. We'll vary the distance, time of recognition, and other things.

I forgot the IDPA guys. I may need to add a few to the list.
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Old 05-20-2010, 07:23   #10
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Quote:
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PM me in advance or call the TN listed on my profile.

Don't forget a cup and a mouth piece. Maybe a red man suit if ya got one- though we won't be using that during the use of sims or airsoft but for the full force reactions to the knife attack.

When we did this in my dojo and at the SO we made sure the attacker understood he was was gonna get when he attempted to give. It tended to change the attitude of the attacker a bit.

Understand that you won't be dictating every situation so that it can't but help prove poor dumb USPSA/IDPA guys are ill prepared. We'll vary the distance, time of recognition, and other things.

I forgot the IDPA guys. I may need to add a few to the list.
I gotta say what I thought you were offering some camaraderie and training seems to have turned into a playground challenge. Do you really think that I am not used to violent training? Have you ever done these drills against a stun gun? You seem to want to teach me a lesson or something. Is that the case- George
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:07   #11
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I gotta say what I thought you were offering some camaraderie and training seems to have turned into a playground challenge. Do you really think that I am not used to violent training? Have you ever done these drills against a stun gun? You seem to want to teach me a lesson or something. Is that the case- George
Not at all. In fact I forgot to offer that when you are in San Antonio you are welcome to stay at my home and make use of our guest room. I live on the far west side of SA near Loop 1604 and Potranco should that place you near where you want to be.

What you are picking up on is my attempt to bait Deaf Smith back into the discussion for friendly tit-for-tat as he threw a friendly poke at the competitive shooters crowd. But he aint having any of it.

The 9 guys I was thinking of include 3 current LEOs who are B, A, and M class, another M class and GM class shooters who work with LEOs in simunition training, a B class shooter who is a retired Army First Sgt, 5th degree blackbelt and unarmed combat instructor, a M class shooter who worked TX DOC, and I'm an A class shooter, former LEO and Army MP and 2nd degree blackbelt. I was certain we would have no problem addressing the low-line power stab and do exactly as I predicted to Deaf.

No, sir. We'll cool- I just failed at hooking Deaf in because these are people I think of when I shoot USPSA and IDPA.

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Old 05-20-2010, 09:30   #12
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OK, I was picking my brain trying to figure out what I said about competitive shooters in this post.- George
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Old 05-20-2010, 10:38   #13
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OK, I was picking my brain trying to figure out what I said about competitive shooters in this post.- George
I can't recall anything. I've enjoyed your posts and I spent some time on your blog the other day. I showed my 12 yo boy the short video on shoves and using the verticle surfaces and asked him if it weren't pretty much what I had been teaching him. I think it did some good to see the same information from a second source.

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Old 05-21-2010, 10:54   #14
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mercop,

I am having some trouble with this technique. I find myself having to visualize the area on the attackers arm in order to strike it in the correct spot and effectively make the block as you describe. This means looking downward, focusing my attention towards the weapon arm, and thus ignoring the other non-weapon arm which also has the potential to strike me.

What can I do to correct the need to visualize the area and what is the preferred followup after making the block?

Thank you.
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Old 05-21-2010, 18:39   #15
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What can I do to correct the need to visualize the area and what is the preferred followup after making the block?

Thank you.
Not mercop but...

Look at the triangle. That is shoulders and chin. You will see the shoulders move in certain directions for each type of strike. A strait punch or jab will have the attacking shoulder move forward as the other shoulder moves back, a roundhouse will have the attacking side's shoulder move up and the other shoulder down and back. A shovel or attack like mercop shows the attacking shoulder moving forward and dropping while the other side moves back.

Visualize on that.

Deaf
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Old 05-22-2010, 18:11   #16
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This is one technique I'm going to have to disagree on. Here are the problems I see.

1) the defenders hips are still in line with the attack. If they arms weren't able to stop the attack, you'd eat a knife in a vital area (the pelvic girdle).

2) The attack is relying on strength to stop the attack. This won't always work. If strength fails, see problem 1.

3) If your palms are sweaty, or your attackers arm is wet, he may slip through. Again, see problem 1.

4) You're bending forward and off-balance. If the attacker were to transition to what we call a "number 2 thrust" the defender would eat it in the head.

4.5) The reason behind 4 is that the defender is reaching for the attack.

5) Hand the weapon been a double edged knife. If he tries to withdraw the blade, or back cut, it's going to be painful.

This all reminds me that I've been starting to slack on my knife work as well.
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Old 05-23-2010, 14:11   #17
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Knife attacks can be fast, fluid, dynamic and really unexpected events. It's not uncommon to hear victims say that they didn't realize there was a knife in the attacker's hand.

I was once attacked by a fellow armed with a large kitchen boning knife. He tried to stab me from the side as he came at me. Fortunately, although I was standing in a confined space where my freedom of movement (and potential escape) was really limited, I was able to make the blow miss, gain a handful of feet of distance and grab something to use as an impact weapon. (This was before I entered LE and I wasn't carrying a handgun.) The attacker decided to leave and not continue the attack.

I've trained in some different dojo's and disciplines where defense against 'short' blades focused on different tactics and techniques. I've trained to use them against people smaller than me, my own size and even folks of much, much larger size and strength. At the time of my being a near stabbing victim I had about 10 years of serious training time behind me ... and somehow it just didn't seem long enough at the moment when I was looking into my attacker's eyes and moved off line from his attack.

Knives are dangerous. Period.

Especially if they're concealed from view by attacker's position, clothing, movement or the lighting conditions. (My attacker's blade appeared from his jacket almost as if it were a magic trick.) Even a subtle difference in the attacker's grip/hold on the knife may have an effect on the probable 'success' of mounting a 'technique' against the attack, especially if the grip is obscured from the victim's view until the moment of imminent contact.

Expecting an attacker to use an anticipated 'technique' may be wishful thinking, in some respects. Think of how this often doesn't work out as expected when just anatomical (hand) weapons are involved in dynamic, rapidly evolving hand-to-hand encounters ... and that you're well within the reach of unexpected kicks when preparing to defend against a hand held weapon.

A victim has to be 'lucky' against each and every attempted blow/stab/slash ... but the attacker only has to be 'lucky' once. It can be hard to avoid being touched by a 'sharp finger' during what may develop into a whirlwind attack.

Learning to effectively use a blade can be helpful in understanding how an unarmed defense may be mounted, too. Finding an instructor who considers that there may be more than half a dozen ways to employ a blade during an attack might be profitable, as well.

It's just my personal opinion, but the best way to avoid being cut or stabbed by a blade is to not be where the cutting edge or point is at ...

Just my thoughts.

Stay safe folks.
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Old 05-31-2010, 04:54   #18
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I would be up for some video links to broaden my perspective on the whole knife defense issue. Like the one posted by mercop . I train in a free style/MMA club here. My focus has been split between Tang Soo Do,Jiu Jitsu,and Aikido. I'm tooooo old to go at it like our fighters that do the MMA competitions. At any rate, knives just plain suck. Oh I start to feeling pretty good about my training,then I go to the updates for the state. They employ the services of an edged weapon master. This guy has devoted his life to the martial arts. Humble is the best way to describe how I feel after a session with him. The state trainers like to drive home the point that the transiants these days lean heavily on the edged weapons,and know how to use them. Their mantra is "In a knife fight,you are going to get cut". I sure would. I think I can survive an attack by a scared mugger or similar non-professional knife wielder. It's the trained individual that knows what he is doing that scares the hell out of me. I can't tell you how many times I have been killed in class by an attacker with a knife in each hand. Blades laid back along the outer forearm. I just pray I never have to deal with it in real life. Again,if anyone has a link or two to some good defense video,I'm game. I'm always looking for new ways to train knife defense. Thanks guys.
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