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Old 05-29-2010, 20:15   #1
alfred10
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Where can I find 10mm vs .45 and 40 ballistics?

Where can I find the pros and cons of switching from a sub compact Glock 27 .40 cal to a compact Glock 29 10mm, and From a Glock 21 .45 Cal to a Glock 20 10mm. I want to see if im gaining alot of penatration.
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Old 05-29-2010, 20:32   #2
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10mm will give you penetration... but that is more or less a factor of the bullet being used.
G27 is a great gun, there is a good dif in size between it and a 29.
G21 can be converted to 10mm with a barrel change, and 10mm mags...

10mm can be a lot more things than either caliber... 135gr - 230gr bullet range selection... can be downloaded, or full bore. with energy levels nearing 900ft./lbs. Ted N. took a cape buffalo with a 10mm.
you can also get .40S&W & 357sig & 9x25Dillon barrels for the 10mm if you like variety....
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Old 05-29-2010, 20:48   #3
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Old 05-29-2010, 20:53   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfred10 View Post
Where can I find the pros and cons of switching from a sub compact Glock 27 .40 cal to a compact Glock 29 10mm, and From a Glock 21 .45 Cal to a Glock 20 10mm. I want to see if im gaining alot of penatration.
Google is your little friend.

Get the G20 and then man-up with real-deal 10mm ammo (DT or BB), and you won't have any problems with "penetration."

G20 & DT 165gn Golden Saber ammo.
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In fact, you'll find you have a choice in high performance 10mm loads between SD-type ammo and "hunting" ammo using projectile configurations that actually enhance penetrative capability. Depends on what your specific needs are.

The 10mm AUTO - high & hard.
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Also, avoid the temptation to shoot watered-down, .40-duplicating 10mm loads ... because ...

(a) it's a waste of your money (just get a .40 instead) ...

(b) they still .40 loads, even though your pistol says "10mm," so you're not foolin' anyone ...

(c), well, in Brokeback Moutaineer land, nothing says Way2Ghey like 180gns @ 1000fps.

C'mon, let's get serious ...

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Last edited by agtman; 05-30-2010 at 17:31..
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Old 05-29-2010, 21:23   #5
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This may provide some interesting info. http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/terminal.html With everything, there are trade-offs. I think the Taylor Knockout formula goes a long way in describing terminal effectiveness. I know shot placement matters, as does what you're shooting through (barriers,etc), but I think taking bullet weight, diameter and velocity into account will provide a useful comparison. YMMV.
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Old 05-29-2010, 22:18   #6
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I know this is not exactly on topic but does anybody know where can I find that funny drawing of ammo comparisons? It has I believe 9mm, .40, .45, and 10mm.

Now back on topic.
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Old 05-29-2010, 23:31   #7
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Velocity has been proven to be a man-stopper with a long street record to back it up such as the 125gr .357mag and 115gr 9mm +P+.

Penetration of hard materials (barrier) is very important when having to shoot through objects to get to the target. This is why the .357sig is popular.

Penetration of soft material is quite important to reach vital organs which that failure to penetrate has been a serious problem with failures to stop. This is why heavy for caliber is popular.

Expansion/caliber is important and proven to be effective to stop the threat. This is why so many swear by the .45's as it has been more than proven to be very effective at getting the job done with fewer shots.

Capacity is important because running out of ammo in a critical moment really sucks to put it lightly. This is a big plus going for the 9mm's.

Here is the problem:

Too many trade offs. When trying to achieve high velocity you have to give up mass and bore and go with a rather light bullet for that caliber and you give up your soft penetration. If you want the soft penetration you go with a heavier bullet and give up that velocity and hard barrier penetration. When trying to get more bore you need a bigger gun with less capasity and usually give up velocity as well. There is always as much if not more negatives than positives.

If you were to try to combine all these positive characteristics with minimal negative characteristics and drawbacks you would have the 10mm. With a 10mm, the weapon is loaded with rounds in 10+1 in subcompact and 15+1 in full size. It's going to fire a decently weighted .40cal bullet out of it's barrel at a .357esqe velocity and with that speed it's probally going to expand and hit very hard, and with the weight behind it to carry though whatever it has to get through to get the job done and the BG trying to use your couch of coffee table as cover isn't going to do him much good. The only thing I do not like about the 10mm is the fact that you have to go with a heavier, larger gun, which is why I usually carry my G27. Heavier recoil, yes, but it is far overexagerated on the internet, it is actually quite controllable.

Let me add this though, the tool is no better than it's operator. The most important factor in the effectiveness of your weapon is YOU. What works perfectly for one person might just be a disaster for another. I am only discussing the round itself, so don't let some 9mm fanatic, .45 die-hard, or even us 10mm enthusiast make the decision for you. So find out which weapon fits you the best and learn how to use it.

Last edited by JW1178; 05-29-2010 at 23:45..
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Old 05-29-2010, 23:54   #8
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So are you looking for; a pocket pistol, an ankle gun, a fullsize woods carry gun, a long range offensive handgun, a 10mm, a 45ACP, or all of the above?
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Old 05-29-2010, 23:57   #9
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I shoot and load 9mm 10mm 40 and 45. Nothing can come close to the 10mm. If you don't hand load try some Double Tap. Loaded to original Norma Standards. A true 10mm. You can load a 185 gr .45 way up as well @1000fps+. I've owned many 1911s. If you load the .45 up to those velocities most don't like it.
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Old 05-30-2010, 00:10   #10
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10mm is king period as far as damage caused per shot. [in a practical automatic]

Ive got a Glock 20. Dont have any trouble carrying it.

But these days Ive come to rely more on my Steyr M9A1 [9mm]

Why? Because I can empty a 15 round mag in about 2 seconds and stay on target.

Why Steyr? Feels great in the hand. Reliable. And it has the fastest factory sites on the market. Only thing I can imagine that would make a better combat sight is maybe Goshen's hex site.

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Old 05-30-2010, 00:33   #11
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Firearmstactical.com has some good results. It is a little hard to find/navigate. Recommend googling like firearmstactical glock 29, etc.

There is also an 10mm Advocacy Page around. It has some good #'s for 29 vs 30. Lots of info around on ballistics from a 27.

regards
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Old 05-30-2010, 01:21   #12
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there are two pictures/graphs that come to my mind....

one is the chart of the ballistic jello impact of the various major loads. (10mm makes a nuke cloud inside jello)

the other is the chart showing the inpet 9mm, .40cal, .45acp and the blow the head off the target 10mm.

with those two nothing else need be said for the 10mm.
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Old 05-30-2010, 06:37   #13
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Where can I find 10mm vs .45 and 40 ballistics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfred10
Where can I find the pros and cons of switching from a sub compact Glock 27 .40 cal to a compact Glock 29 10mm, and From a Glock 21 .45 Cal to a Glock 20 10mm. I want to see if im gaining alot of penatration.
I would recommend posting this question to Mas Ayood under the Self Defense section of Glock Talk.

Penetration will depend upon specifically what load and weight you use. A higher rated velocity will give more penetration. There are numerous books and articles about the ballistics of ammunition. In practical terms, availability of that tested ammunition is limited in certain parts of this country.

What you should do is research the data on loads available specific to you. The cost benefit analysis of a particular brand/spec of ammunition will be only limited by your wallet, the specific pistol/magazine combination and your willingness to develop the skills to shoot another caliber.

I like to depend on 1 main caliber for the purposes of practice and carry, the 40 SW. If I had to resort to my alternate/BUG of the 357, the short range of SD less than 7 feet, is another supplemental "modality" I concentrate upon. Shot placement, recoil charactersitics and ambidextrous situations are what I feel is more "High Yield" for my situations.
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Old 05-30-2010, 07:36   #14
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Sorry guys but I keep seeing these post about the penetration power of the 357 sig. BS! its a 125 gr 9mm bullet, yes it is a 9mm .355" dia bullet not a .357" dia true 357 mag bullet, at an average 1350 fps. And thats at its best! Heck 9mm 124gr +p+ equals that!
No way that comares to a 180 gr 10mm round at the same 1350 fps!
Guys I don't hate the 357sig round but it isn't even equal to a 357 mag in the light bullets! It is nothing more than a +p+ 9mm! for folks who don't like 9mm's!
It is not a magnum level powerhouse! it does nothing a +p+ 9mm can't do!
Yes it fits in a smaller frame than a 10mm. same size as a 9mm though and you can get more rounds of +p+ in the same space! So the sig looses to the 9 again! I am not a 9mm fan either, just tired of the 357sig'ers spouting it's supposed ballistic magic mojo that it can't back up!
Check the ballistics! its a hot 9mm and that is all!
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Old 05-30-2010, 07:43   #15
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.......

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Old 05-30-2010, 08:53   #16
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Why do people compare +P or +P+ rounds with regular rounds. More so +P+ though. I assume +P+ rounds are harder to find and more expensive than finding a standard caliber of equal performance.
ie. 9mm +P+ = more $ than a .357sig.

Its like the ACP guys that knock on the GAP with their +P.
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Old 05-30-2010, 21:10   #17
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Originally Posted by Slug71 View Post
Why do people compare +P or +P+ rounds with regular rounds. More so +P+ though. I assume +P+ rounds are harder to find and more expensive than finding a standard caliber of equal performance.
ie. 9mm +P+ = more $ than a .357sig.

Its like the ACP guys that knock on the GAP with their +P.
No its not! The 357 sig is a hi pressure round as well, rated by saami at 40k psi. The 9mm is rated at 35k standard, +p is at 38.5k if logic follows that would put +p+ or std nato 9mm ammo at around 40k as well. so tell me again how the sig round is a standard round? and how it is unfair to compair +p+ 9mm to "std" sig rounds? you want apples to apples for comparison to play fair right! Well that proves it right there, the 357 sig is fancy bottle necked 9 mm +p+! and nothing else! The answer to problem that didn't exist! It was a simple marketing ploy by Sig Sauer to sell a bunch of new pistols to police officers/deptments that missed their 357 mag revolvers performance! So please enlighten me as to how it is unfair to compare two cartridges of nearly identical psi ratings, firing nearly indentical bullets?
Just like all the banter about 10mm and 40s&w. A hot 40 is not a 10mm but a weak, easy on the ladies wrists, loaded 10mm is a 40 short and weak!
Sure if your paw is too small for a full size pistol like a G20 then by all means step down to baby brother power wise and size wise and pick up a 22,23 or a 27. But don't be fooled it is not a 10mm short!
But if any one caliber was perfect we would only have one right! variety is the spice of life and what fuels some good discussions on this board.

As to the 45acp+p to 45gap comparison, no its not fair! But Glock/speer never claimed it anything more than a ballistic twin to std 45acp loadings in a shortend case that allows it fit within the 9mm/40s&w OAL to fit in the smaller mags and frame. Nothing false or misleading there!
Do a little research and you will find I am dead on about the 357sig round! So lets look at the 19/32 comparison, we can have ballistic twins if the correct load is selected for the 19, lets say a 124grn GD at 1300 fps, to the only 357sig round a 125gr at 1350. Wow thats close and I get 2 extra ronds with the 19! plus I can stuff a 33 rounder up the grip stocked full of the puppies and chase the BGS around the house till cops arrive if I need too! See why i say the 357 sig is the answer to no problem!

Last edited by grizman; 05-30-2010 at 21:30..
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Old 05-30-2010, 21:33   #18
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never mind if its not clear yet it never will be

Last edited by grizman; 05-30-2010 at 21:35..
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Old 05-30-2010, 22:26   #19
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Here ya go!

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Originally Posted by Indiana Camper View Post
I know this is not exactly on topic but does anybody know where can I find that funny drawing of ammo comparisons? It has I believe 9mm, .40, .45, and 10mm.

Now back on topic.
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Old 05-30-2010, 22:42   #20
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Originally Posted by grizman View Post
The 357 sig is a hi pressure round as well, rated by saami at 40k psi. The 9mm is rated at 35k standard, +p is at 38.5k if logic follows that would put +p+ or std nato 9mm ammo at around 40k as well.
I have no opinion on this debate, but having recently talked to WinLE and asked them specifically this I can say with some authority that you ARE correct. 357Sig is SAAMI rated at 40K PSI which is the same as the 127gr +P+. Hot for big box? Yes. Keep in mind 9mm proof loads are 50K PSI. All three are hotter than 10mm which is about 38K PSI.

Grizman-You will also like this--folks go to the WinLE site and compare the 9mm 127gr +P+ and the 357 Sig 125gr. According to Win's tests the 127gr outperforms the faster 357 Sig round.

But, I do not round discriminate, I like them all (with 10mm being my favorite).

Last edited by remat; 05-30-2010 at 22:45..
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