GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-25-2010, 23:25   #1
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Teflon and bullets?

I remember when I was in middle school one of the teachers was talking about the "rules" of war. One of them was that you weren't allowed to use "teflon bullets". He mentioned something about the bullet slipping right through body armor and not spreading out...then again, that was middle school so who knows.

What's the truth about teflon and bullets? Do some spray/coat FMJ bullets and it has some armor piercing effect? Will ordinary teflon spray do such a thing?

I've just never seen such a thing in the world of ammunition....

Thanks!

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 00:17   #2
furioso2112
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,609
competitive shooters coated some bullets with teflon and figured out that they chronoed faster, so used them. Somebody else tried a tefloned bullet on a bullet proof vest (kevlar, IIRC) and it went through. Word got out, some legislator got ahold of the info, made a stink about it, they were illegalized. Never one reported instance of any person, vest or not, being shot with a teflon-coated bullet. Still illegal. That's my understanding of the sitiation. Cheers.
__________________
Madness is like gravity; all it needs is a little push.
(The Joker)
furioso2112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 00:26   #3
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by furioso2112 View Post
competitive shooters coated some bullets with teflon and figured out that they chronoed faster, so used them. Somebody else tried a tefloned bullet on a bullet proof vest (kevlar, IIRC) and it went through. Word got out, some legislator got ahold of the info, made a stink about it, they were illegalized. Never one reported instance of any person, vest or not, being shot with a teflon-coated bullet. Still illegal. That's my understanding of the sitiation. Cheers.
So spraying the bullets with teflon (then allowing them to dry) makes them armor piercing (against soft armor I'm assuming)?

Interesting info. I'm not sure it's something I'd do other than at the range just to see it work. Plus in a SD shoot, I'm sure it'd mean certain defeat civilly if the other side got ahold of such info. Still...interesting info nonetheless.

Thanks!

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 01:55   #4
Merkavaboy
Code-7A KUZ769
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In The State Of Fruitloops (CA)
Posts: 5,301
The KTW (named after the designers Kopsch, Turcus & Ward) is the ammo that everyone is referring to when they speak of "Teflon" and "cop killer bullets" in a single breath. The KTW was made in many calibers with various bullet shapes and bullet materials.

The green Teflon (black teflon for several large bore calibers) material added to the bullets was designed to actually grip smooth surfaces such as glass and metal, and not to make it "slip" easily through kevlar.

Refer to the following article in which Paul Kopsch was interviewed about the KTW bullet.

http://www.scfirearms.org/2ndamend/ammo.txt
__________________
"I spent the last two years of high school in a daze....attended classes sparingly, drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically."
Barack Obama
One Bad Ass Mistake America
Merkavaboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 02:12   #5
SargeMO
Senior Member
 
SargeMO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 412
Teachers, quite often and unfortunately, plant seeds of 'knowledge' which isn't.
__________________
Sarge

PS- if you're being a retard, don't expect a reply.
SargeMO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 08:31   #6
481
Senior Member
 
481's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
So spraying the bullets with teflon (then allowing them to dry) makes them armor piercing (against soft armor I'm assuming)?

-Emt1581

No. The miniscule amounts of Teflon left after the solvent carrier evaporates after traveling down the bore and through whatever atmosphere it would encounter prior to striking a target is insufficient to induce any such effect.

The KTW rounds that Merkavaboy alludes to are coated with a much thicker coating of Teflon that is in a solid, more mechanically stable, state and is mechanically bonded to the bullet's jacket. The trace amounts found in firearms solvents/lubes are not bonded to the bullet jacket substrate material in any way and will simply not remain there throughout the flight of the bullet.
__________________
SUPER GENIUS
CERTIFIED GLOCK ARMORER

Last edited by 481; 06-26-2010 at 11:19..
481 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 10:43   #7
Scamp
Boomer Sooners!
 
Scamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Interesting read...


So...anybody have some of these rounds for collecting purposes?

Caliber Corner
Scamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 11:57   #8
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by 481 View Post
No. The miniscule amounts of Teflon left after the solvent carrier evaporates after traveling down the bore and through whatever atmosphere it would encounter prior to striking a target is insufficient to induce any such effect.

The KTW rounds that Merkavaboy alludes to are coated with a much thicker coating of Teflon that is in a solid, more mechanically stable, state and is mechanically bonded to the bullet's jacket. The trace amounts found in firearms solvents/lubes are not bonded to the bullet jacket substrate material in any way and will simply not remain there throughout the flight of the bullet.
I see what you're saying.

But couldn't reloaders just melt/adhere sheets of teflon to the surface of the bullet? I mean teflon isn't exactly titanium. Any fool can work with it to achieve a desired purpose...no?

Thanks!

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 11:59   #9
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post

The green Teflon (black teflon for several large bore calibers) material added to the bullets was designed to actually grip smooth surfaces such as glass and metal, and not to make it "slip" easily through kevlar.
What do you mean by that? The teflon was meant to actually slow down/catch the bullet in barriers rather than help it penetrate? I don't see the reasoning/use for it....which is why I'm confused.

Thanks!

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 12:28   #10
481
Senior Member
 
481's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
I see what you're saying.

But couldn't reloaders just melt/adhere sheets of teflon to the surface of the bullet? I mean teflon isn't exactly titanium. Any fool can work with it to achieve a desired purpose...no?

Thanks!

-Emt1581
In theory, yes. But we all know how theory often differs from reality, don't we?

Any fool? Well, I expect that trying something like this without the proper licensure and technical resources and experience might be something in a fool's domain.

Trying something like this (all technical issues aside like procuring the appropriate material, achieving a bond, tolerances and load development, etc.) is also likely to land one (depending upon the laws in your jurisdiction) in serious trouble with BATFE and the .gov and may even cost you your freedom.

Hell, even discussing it might pose a problem in certain jurisdictions. (outside the U.S.)

The fact that KTW has done it (other manufacturers have also) proves the technology is mature enough to be fielded, but again this begs the question, "Why attempt to do so?"


Not harshin' on you here either; just some points to ponder.

__________________
SUPER GENIUS
CERTIFIED GLOCK ARMORER
481 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 12:55   #11
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by 481 View Post
In theory, yes. But we all know how theory often differs from reality, don't we?

Any fool? Well, I expect that trying something like this without the proper licensure and technical resources and experience might be something in a fool's domain.

Trying something like this (all technical issues aside like procuring the appropriate material, achieving a bond, tolerances and load development, etc.) is also likely to land one (depending upon the laws in your jurisdiction) in serious trouble with BATFE and the .gov and may even cost you your freedom.

Hell, even discussing it might pose a problem in certain jurisdictions. (outside the U.S.)

The fact that KTW has done it (other manufacturers have also) proves the technology is mature enough to be fielded, but again this begs the question, "Why attempt to do so?"


Not harshin' on you here either; just some points to ponder.

Oh I agree with you.

I was just curious if...

1) It was easily done

2) It was really vest-defeating/armor piercing material

3) Such bullets were already available (seems only a demilled round or two for collectors...but looks like it could still be pulled for use)

Thanks!

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 13:18   #12
M1A Shooter
Senior Member
 
M1A Shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Clarksville, TN
Posts: 3,595
Send a message via Yahoo to M1A Shooter
how would the teflon coating differ from moly coated bullets? moly is used very regularly.
__________________
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato
M1A Shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 14:07   #13
Jeepnik
Senior Member
 
Jeepnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
The KTW (named after the designers Kopsch, Turcus & Ward) is the ammo that everyone is referring to when they speak of "Teflon" and "cop killer bullets" in a single breath. The KTW was made in many calibers with various bullet shapes and bullet materials.

The green Teflon (black teflon for several large bore calibers) material added to the bullets was designed to actually grip smooth surfaces such as glass and metal, and not to make it "slip" easily through kevlar.

Refer to the following article in which Paul Kopsch was interviewed about the KTW bullet.

http://www.scfirearms.org/2ndamend/ammo.txt
So here's the question. Since no cops have been killed with this round, shouldn't the media have been brought up short for incorrect reporting?
__________________
Jeepnik "AKA Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow, and preferrably in the dark".

Last edited by Jeepnik; 06-26-2010 at 14:07..
Jeepnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 14:11   #14
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepnik View Post
So here's the question. Since no cops have been killed with this round, shouldn't the media have been brought up short for incorrect reporting?
Of course not!! Remember we're talking about bullets and guns...and the media NEVER makes mistakes in such arenas...let alone corrections/retractions.

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 14:27   #15
Merkavaboy
Code-7A KUZ769
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In The State Of Fruitloops (CA)
Posts: 5,301
Quote:
Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
What do you mean by that? The teflon was meant to actually slow down/catch the bullet in barriers rather than help it penetrate? I don't see the reasoning/use for it....which is why I'm confused.

Thanks!

-Emt1581
My understanding is the Teflon helps the bullet "grip" smooth surfaces at oblique angles better than standard bullets. It's the bullet's velocity, design and hardness that contributes to it's penetration ability.

It might help answer your question if you read Paul Kopsch's statement in the link I provided. I'm not very well versed in the development and design of KTW's as I'd like to be.
__________________
"I spent the last two years of high school in a daze....attended classes sparingly, drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically."
Barack Obama
One Bad Ass Mistake America
Merkavaboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 14:34   #16
454ThunderGod
Handgun Hunter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: West
Posts: 654
Generally speaking, No.

No magic coating of teflon or any other silly substance will turn an ordinary bullet into an armor piercing round.

A bullet's ability to penetrate either hard surface, or thick flesh, is soley proportionate to the construction of the bullet itself, the type of materials used in its construction, and the type of bullet shape it is to become.

The secondary condition is its velocity, of which teh requirements differ from hard surface penetration, to thick flesh penetration.
__________________
"Go Ahead...Skin that smoke wagon"
454ThunderGod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2010, 23:41   #17
9mm +p+
Senior Member
 
9mm +p+'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: KS
Posts: 2,419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Interesting read...


So...anybody have some of these rounds for collecting purposes?

Caliber Corner
As a matter of fact I have located some from time to time which have come home with me I've only got revolver calibers though have never found any of their auto stuff, fortunately the ammo vendor that had them did not know what they were and thought they were junk ammo and were priced accordingly. I readily helped him out of that junk ammo.
__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum
9mm +p+ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2010, 07:58   #18
DJ Niner
Moderator
 
DJ Niner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North-Central USA
Posts: 17,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
I see what you're saying.

But couldn't reloaders just melt/adhere sheets of teflon to the surface of the bullet? I mean teflon isn't exactly titanium. Any fool can work with it to achieve a desired purpose...no?

Thanks!

-Emt1581
Adding any thickness to the diameter of a finished bullet is a recipe for higher-than-normal pressures during firing, and a potential KaBoom. Construction and sales of armor-piercing handgun ammunition is tightly controlled by law in the U.S., as said above, so experimentation is not a good idea.
DJ Niner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2010, 08:24   #19
Atomic Punk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,531
i recalled a different original purpose for the teflon coating. the bullets had a hard bronze core and the softer teflon helped the bullet gain traction in the barrel grooves

http://www.alphadogweb.com/firearms/...lerbullets.htm
Atomic Punk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2010, 10:03   #20
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 6,666
The KTW Teflon coated bullets go back before the wide use of soft body armor. The intent was to provide cops with AP capability against criminals in cars or buildings. At first they limited sales to government agencies but a profiteer sued them for restraint of trade to get some to sell to his survivalist clients. It took several years for them to come to the attention of the media and other anti-gunners.

The Teflon coating improved penetration in some target materials but not all, and not in Kevlar.

Most of the AP capability was their hard construction.
First production was a tungsten core in a copper half jacket.
Second production was a hardened steel core in a copper half jacket.
The Teflon coating is not thick enough to take the rifling, these harder-than-gun barrel cores depended on the copper half jacket to take the rifling and protect the bore.
Third production was a solid bronze bullet.


The USMC did some work with Teflon coated service rifle bullets at one time. First trials gave the idea that velocity would be higher and barrel life longer, but the results could not be duplicated and they quit fooling with it.
__________________
I have a few facts and a lot of opinions.

Last edited by Jim Watson; 06-27-2010 at 10:07..
Jim Watson is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2010, 10:32   #21
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
The KTW Teflon coated bullets go back before the wide use of soft body armor. The intent was to provide cops with AP capability against criminals in cars or buildings. At first they limited sales to government agencies but a profiteer sued them for restraint of trade to get some to sell to his survivalist clients. It took several years for them to come to the attention of the media and other anti-gunners.

The Teflon coating improved penetration in some target materials but not all, and not in Kevlar.

Most of the AP capability was their hard construction.
First production was a tungsten core in a copper half jacket.
Second production was a hardened steel core in a copper half jacket.
The Teflon coating is not thick enough to take the rifling, these harder-than-gun barrel cores depended on the copper half jacket to take the rifling and protect the bore.
Third production was a solid bronze bullet.


The USMC did some work with Teflon coated service rifle bullets at one time. First trials gave the idea that velocity would be higher and barrel life longer, but the results could not be duplicated and they quit fooling with it.
Wow! Lots of info there! Thanks for sharing.

What use would the military have with them? Aren't they banned for use in war?

Thanks!

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2010, 10:34   #22
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Niner View Post
Adding any thickness to the diameter of a finished bullet is a recipe for higher-than-normal pressures during firing, and a potential KaBoom. Construction and sales of armor-piercing handgun ammunition is tightly controlled by law in the U.S., as said above, so experimentation is not a good idea.
I thought about that extra thickness. It wouldn't work for 9mm but for some of the bullets that have slight differences in diameter, you could just use a lesser caliber. For example...with rifles you could use a .222 or .223 bullet instead of a .224 to make a .223 round. My thousandths might be off but you get the idea.

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2010, 11:19   #23
481
Senior Member
 
481's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,001
Of course, there was also the French THV ('Tres Haute Vitesse' which translates as 'Very High Velocity') AP design.

It was essentially a full wadcutter design with a tapered penetrating blunt tipped projection and was fabricated of bronze (basically an alloy of 90% Copper, 7% Tin and 3% various metals) that weighed about 45 grains in 9mm and had a muzzle velocity of 2035 fps. The .45 version pushed a 60 grain bullet to the same (2035 fps) velocity.

Barrel wear, high pressure issues and expense made it a "short-lived" proposition.
__________________
SUPER GENIUS
CERTIFIED GLOCK ARMORER
481 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2010, 11:35   #24
windplex
Senior Member
 
windplex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 14,465
I know from industry experience that dupont was on a push to get teflon into as many products as possible -- far afield of frying pans.

dupont officials told me to breath it is to die quickly. Be careful with aerosol formats. Have seen it applied to pots and pans in a factory settintg and the set up makes sure you cannot breath it.

the (an american) factory where it is made has plume software incase it burps out some to forecast the danger areas.

I would not toy with it.

Last edited by windplex; 06-27-2010 at 11:35..
windplex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2010, 17:31   #25
chippy
Member
 
chippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Montana
Posts: 77
Anyone remember the old "Nyclad" bullets? They also had a reputation for defeating body armor. I still have 50 rounds of .357mag Nyclad, but not the factory box. They are hollow points, but I don't know the bullet weight. Anyone know?
chippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:58.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,056
345 Members
711 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42