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Old 06-25-2010, 23:25   #1
emt1581
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Teflon and bullets?

I remember when I was in middle school one of the teachers was talking about the "rules" of war. One of them was that you weren't allowed to use "teflon bullets". He mentioned something about the bullet slipping right through body armor and not spreading out...then again, that was middle school so who knows.

What's the truth about teflon and bullets? Do some spray/coat FMJ bullets and it has some armor piercing effect? Will ordinary teflon spray do such a thing?

I've just never seen such a thing in the world of ammunition....

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Old 06-26-2010, 00:17   #2
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competitive shooters coated some bullets with teflon and figured out that they chronoed faster, so used them. Somebody else tried a tefloned bullet on a bullet proof vest (kevlar, IIRC) and it went through. Word got out, some legislator got ahold of the info, made a stink about it, they were illegalized. Never one reported instance of any person, vest or not, being shot with a teflon-coated bullet. Still illegal. That's my understanding of the sitiation. Cheers.
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Old 06-26-2010, 00:26   #3
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Originally Posted by furioso2112 View Post
competitive shooters coated some bullets with teflon and figured out that they chronoed faster, so used them. Somebody else tried a tefloned bullet on a bullet proof vest (kevlar, IIRC) and it went through. Word got out, some legislator got ahold of the info, made a stink about it, they were illegalized. Never one reported instance of any person, vest or not, being shot with a teflon-coated bullet. Still illegal. That's my understanding of the sitiation. Cheers.
So spraying the bullets with teflon (then allowing them to dry) makes them armor piercing (against soft armor I'm assuming)?

Interesting info. I'm not sure it's something I'd do other than at the range just to see it work. Plus in a SD shoot, I'm sure it'd mean certain defeat civilly if the other side got ahold of such info. Still...interesting info nonetheless.

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Old 06-26-2010, 01:55   #4
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The KTW (named after the designers Kopsch, Turcus & Ward) is the ammo that everyone is referring to when they speak of "Teflon" and "cop killer bullets" in a single breath. The KTW was made in many calibers with various bullet shapes and bullet materials.

The green Teflon (black teflon for several large bore calibers) material added to the bullets was designed to actually grip smooth surfaces such as glass and metal, and not to make it "slip" easily through kevlar.

Refer to the following article in which Paul Kopsch was interviewed about the KTW bullet.

http://www.scfirearms.org/2ndamend/ammo.txt
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Old 06-26-2010, 02:12   #5
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Old 06-26-2010, 08:31   #6
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Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
So spraying the bullets with teflon (then allowing them to dry) makes them armor piercing (against soft armor I'm assuming)?

-Emt1581

No. The miniscule amounts of Teflon left after the solvent carrier evaporates after traveling down the bore and through whatever atmosphere it would encounter prior to striking a target is insufficient to induce any such effect.

The KTW rounds that Merkavaboy alludes to are coated with a much thicker coating of Teflon that is in a solid, more mechanically stable, state and is mechanically bonded to the bullet's jacket. The trace amounts found in firearms solvents/lubes are not bonded to the bullet jacket substrate material in any way and will simply not remain there throughout the flight of the bullet.

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Old 06-26-2010, 10:43   #7
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Interesting read...


So...anybody have some of these rounds for collecting purposes?

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Old 06-26-2010, 11:57   #8
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No. The miniscule amounts of Teflon left after the solvent carrier evaporates after traveling down the bore and through whatever atmosphere it would encounter prior to striking a target is insufficient to induce any such effect.

The KTW rounds that Merkavaboy alludes to are coated with a much thicker coating of Teflon that is in a solid, more mechanically stable, state and is mechanically bonded to the bullet's jacket. The trace amounts found in firearms solvents/lubes are not bonded to the bullet jacket substrate material in any way and will simply not remain there throughout the flight of the bullet.
I see what you're saying.

But couldn't reloaders just melt/adhere sheets of teflon to the surface of the bullet? I mean teflon isn't exactly titanium. Any fool can work with it to achieve a desired purpose...no?

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Old 06-26-2010, 11:59   #9
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post

The green Teflon (black teflon for several large bore calibers) material added to the bullets was designed to actually grip smooth surfaces such as glass and metal, and not to make it "slip" easily through kevlar.
What do you mean by that? The teflon was meant to actually slow down/catch the bullet in barriers rather than help it penetrate? I don't see the reasoning/use for it....which is why I'm confused.

Thanks!

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Old 06-26-2010, 12:28   #10
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I see what you're saying.

But couldn't reloaders just melt/adhere sheets of teflon to the surface of the bullet? I mean teflon isn't exactly titanium. Any fool can work with it to achieve a desired purpose...no?

Thanks!

-Emt1581
In theory, yes. But we all know how theory often differs from reality, don't we?

Any fool? Well, I expect that trying something like this without the proper licensure and technical resources and experience might be something in a fool's domain.

Trying something like this (all technical issues aside like procuring the appropriate material, achieving a bond, tolerances and load development, etc.) is also likely to land one (depending upon the laws in your jurisdiction) in serious trouble with BATFE and the .gov and may even cost you your freedom.

Hell, even discussing it might pose a problem in certain jurisdictions. (outside the U.S.)

The fact that KTW has done it (other manufacturers have also) proves the technology is mature enough to be fielded, but again this begs the question, "Why attempt to do so?"


Not harshin' on you here either; just some points to ponder.

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Old 06-26-2010, 12:55   #11
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In theory, yes. But we all know how theory often differs from reality, don't we?

Any fool? Well, I expect that trying something like this without the proper licensure and technical resources and experience might be something in a fool's domain.

Trying something like this (all technical issues aside like procuring the appropriate material, achieving a bond, tolerances and load development, etc.) is also likely to land one (depending upon the laws in your jurisdiction) in serious trouble with BATFE and the .gov and may even cost you your freedom.

Hell, even discussing it might pose a problem in certain jurisdictions. (outside the U.S.)

The fact that KTW has done it (other manufacturers have also) proves the technology is mature enough to be fielded, but again this begs the question, "Why attempt to do so?"


Not harshin' on you here either; just some points to ponder.

Oh I agree with you.

I was just curious if...

1) It was easily done

2) It was really vest-defeating/armor piercing material

3) Such bullets were already available (seems only a demilled round or two for collectors...but looks like it could still be pulled for use)

Thanks!

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Old 06-26-2010, 13:18   #12
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how would the teflon coating differ from moly coated bullets? moly is used very regularly.
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Old 06-26-2010, 14:07   #13
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
The KTW (named after the designers Kopsch, Turcus & Ward) is the ammo that everyone is referring to when they speak of "Teflon" and "cop killer bullets" in a single breath. The KTW was made in many calibers with various bullet shapes and bullet materials.

The green Teflon (black teflon for several large bore calibers) material added to the bullets was designed to actually grip smooth surfaces such as glass and metal, and not to make it "slip" easily through kevlar.

Refer to the following article in which Paul Kopsch was interviewed about the KTW bullet.

http://www.scfirearms.org/2ndamend/ammo.txt
So here's the question. Since no cops have been killed with this round, shouldn't the media have been brought up short for incorrect reporting?
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Old 06-26-2010, 14:11   #14
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So here's the question. Since no cops have been killed with this round, shouldn't the media have been brought up short for incorrect reporting?
Of course not!! Remember we're talking about bullets and guns...and the media NEVER makes mistakes in such arenas...let alone corrections/retractions.

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Old 06-26-2010, 14:27   #15
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What do you mean by that? The teflon was meant to actually slow down/catch the bullet in barriers rather than help it penetrate? I don't see the reasoning/use for it....which is why I'm confused.

Thanks!

-Emt1581
My understanding is the Teflon helps the bullet "grip" smooth surfaces at oblique angles better than standard bullets. It's the bullet's velocity, design and hardness that contributes to it's penetration ability.

It might help answer your question if you read Paul Kopsch's statement in the link I provided. I'm not very well versed in the development and design of KTW's as I'd like to be.
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Old 06-26-2010, 14:34   #16
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Generally speaking, No.

No magic coating of teflon or any other silly substance will turn an ordinary bullet into an armor piercing round.

A bullet's ability to penetrate either hard surface, or thick flesh, is soley proportionate to the construction of the bullet itself, the type of materials used in its construction, and the type of bullet shape it is to become.

The secondary condition is its velocity, of which teh requirements differ from hard surface penetration, to thick flesh penetration.
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Old 06-26-2010, 23:41   #17
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Interesting read...


So...anybody have some of these rounds for collecting purposes?

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As a matter of fact I have located some from time to time which have come home with me I've only got revolver calibers though have never found any of their auto stuff, fortunately the ammo vendor that had them did not know what they were and thought they were junk ammo and were priced accordingly. I readily helped him out of that junk ammo.
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Old 06-27-2010, 07:58   #18
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I see what you're saying.

But couldn't reloaders just melt/adhere sheets of teflon to the surface of the bullet? I mean teflon isn't exactly titanium. Any fool can work with it to achieve a desired purpose...no?

Thanks!

-Emt1581
Adding any thickness to the diameter of a finished bullet is a recipe for higher-than-normal pressures during firing, and a potential KaBoom. Construction and sales of armor-piercing handgun ammunition is tightly controlled by law in the U.S., as said above, so experimentation is not a good idea.
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Old 06-27-2010, 08:24   #19
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i recalled a different original purpose for the teflon coating. the bullets had a hard bronze core and the softer teflon helped the bullet gain traction in the barrel grooves

http://www.alphadogweb.com/firearms/...lerbullets.htm
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Old 06-27-2010, 10:03   #20
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The KTW Teflon coated bullets go back before the wide use of soft body armor. The intent was to provide cops with AP capability against criminals in cars or buildings. At first they limited sales to government agencies but a profiteer sued them for restraint of trade to get some to sell to his survivalist clients. It took several years for them to come to the attention of the media and other anti-gunners.

The Teflon coating improved penetration in some target materials but not all, and not in Kevlar.

Most of the AP capability was their hard construction.
First production was a tungsten core in a copper half jacket.
Second production was a hardened steel core in a copper half jacket.
The Teflon coating is not thick enough to take the rifling, these harder-than-gun barrel cores depended on the copper half jacket to take the rifling and protect the bore.
Third production was a solid bronze bullet.


The USMC did some work with Teflon coated service rifle bullets at one time. First trials gave the idea that velocity would be higher and barrel life longer, but the results could not be duplicated and they quit fooling with it.
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