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Old 05-02-2010, 09:16   #1
intargc
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Moving to the kahr from glock

I have recently purchased a Kahr P9. I have been shooting Glocks for a year and train quite often in groups and private training for concealed carry and tactical training. I have always used my Glock 19. I am quite used to Glock and firing the Kahr has proven to be difficult for accurate and quick follow up shots.

I carried the 19 for a while, but after a while it became more of a hassle than I could cope with and given I'm 5'9 and 165 lbs, it prints like a mofo on me. So I went with the Kahr. The Kahr carries wonderfully! However, it is just very difficult to shoot for me. Add the fact that all of my training is done with Glocks, coming back to the Kahr just makes me feel like I'm having to relearn again and again.

For those that train regularly with Glocks and have owned or do own a kahr. Does it get easier as time goes on? Or do most give up and just go with the 26/27 to maintain their platform? I get that if you don't train tactically and regularly, this isn't that big of a deal... But keeping muscle memory for me is a big deal. That, however, is matched with the strong desire to have a firearm that conceals well and is somewhat tolerable.

Any opinions from those in a similar situation are welcome!
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Old 05-02-2010, 10:56   #2
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I have a glock 26 and then bought a p9 and lately a pm9. The big difference is the trigger pull. I spent a lot of time dry firing the kahrs, it does two things, smooths the trigger and helps me get used to the longer and heavier pull. After a while I got better but still not as good as the glock. The kahr makes carrying so much easier its worth the time and trouble getting used to it.
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Old 05-02-2010, 11:19   #3
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My daily carry is a G26 (with 12rd mags) or a Kahr MK9. I've used both guns in point shooting training (Suarez Classes were excellent). When I used the Kahr, it was more accurate at 7 and 10 and 15 yards than every other gun in class. I was the only one who used a micro gun. (As the instructor put it, "Biggest guy has the smallest gun")

For me, the Kahr trigger is nicer than the GLOCK. It was crap/long/stiff for the first 500rds or so, than after thousands of dry fire drills and another 2K of live ammo, the MK9 is as smooth as I'd want it to be. Long pull, but butter smooth.

My GLOCKs (I also have a G30) have 5K+ rounds down the tube and the triggers seem about the same as when I try the newer guns.

When I practice, I practice with both guns, both hands, draw from concealed, along with shoot and move.

I try and make practice as practical as possible. This helps with muscle memory.

The P9 is on my short list of guns to buy. I shot one in PHX and fell in love, but I prefer the concealment of the MK9.

Give it some time, I believe the P9 will grow on you. I also found that by carrying and shooting only one gun for a year, I became much better with the one gun. (MK9)

I pulled the G26 out and took another shoot-from-concealed class two weeks ago and found the G26 was still excellent. Seems the G26 needs a lot less training to use than the MK9. Also, it's nice to have 13rds (plus a 15rd second mag) when you are in a multi-target environment!
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Old 05-02-2010, 11:26   #4
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The Kahr trigger is nice, but before you lay your life on the line for loyalty to Kahr, have you done any extended shooting with one?

The first time one fails to return to battery when you're exchanging shots with someone for your life, will you care about how the trigger feels?
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Old 05-02-2010, 13:47   #5
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The Kahr trigger is nice, but before you lay your life on the line for loyalty to Kahr, have you done any extended shooting with one?

The first time one fails to return to battery when you're exchanging shots with someone for your life, will you care about how the trigger feels?
oh, this happened to me a lot in the last class! Which is another reason I'm worried about it all...

A couple of times my thumb accidentally hit the slide lock while firing and caused the slide to not lock back on the last round. It's a thick slide lock, so it seems to happen to me when firing rapidly and under stress. Loading up a new mag and racking the slide caused the first round to nose dive into the feed ramp and forced me to rerack the slide again. Also, during a type 1 malfunction drill, this issue happened.

After the class I looked this up and apparently this is a common issue and Kahr is very retarded about it all. They say that "loading the Kahr should always be performed from a slide locked position." ok, so we all know that's not always possible in tactical situations... The flaw is with their magazine engineering. Apparently ProMag makes Kahr mags that work around this issue and are way more reliable than Kahr mags... Go figure...

Anyway, that was frustrating.
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Old 05-02-2010, 18:10   #6
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oh, this happened to me a lot in the last class! Which is another reason I'm worried about it all...

A couple of times my thumb accidentally hit the slide lock while firing and caused the slide to not lock back on the last round. It's a thick slide lock, so it seems to happen to me when firing rapidly and under stress. Loading up a new mag and racking the slide caused the first round to nose dive into the feed ramp and forced me to rerack the slide again. Also, during a type 1 malfunction drill, this issue happened.

After the class I looked this up and apparently this is a common issue and Kahr is very retarded about it all. They say that "loading the Kahr should always be performed from a slide locked position." ok, so we all know that's not always possible in tactical situations... The flaw is with their magazine engineering. Apparently ProMag makes Kahr mags that work around this issue and are way more reliable than Kahr mags... Go figure...

Anyway, that was frustrating.
Promags are more reliable than factory Kahr??

My personal experience with promags is they are ok for the range(mine would not feed hollowpoints) but I would never use one in a carry gun.
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Old 05-02-2010, 22:05   #7
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Promags are more reliable than factory Kahr??

My personal experience with promags is they are ok for the range(mine would not feed hollowpoints) but I would never use one in a carry gun.
I would normally agree with you here, but, it's a known issue and fact that Kahr magazines are poorly made due to the top round being able to wiggle out very easily and due to forcing the kahr to require you (their words, not mine) to have the slide locked open when inserting a new mag and chambering the first round or risk having it nose dive into the feed ramp.

Kahr has received thousands of complaints about the mag design they have. There are tons of people posting on forums about it and there are YouTube videos about trying to find workarounds for it... Kahr ignores all of this and tells us we should load our pistols the way they tell us to and shut up.

ProMag takes care of both of the issues described above. With that being said, yes, sadly enough, ProMag magazines are more reliable than Kahr's this time around.
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Old 05-02-2010, 22:15   #8
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To answer the question presented in the Op we would need to know what part of shooting the Kahr is giving you issues? Is it the trigger pull? The grip? What?
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Old 05-02-2010, 22:45   #9
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Originally Posted by intargc View Post
I have recently purchased a Kahr P9. I have been shooting Glocks for a year and train quite often in groups and private training for concealed carry and tactical training. I have always used my Glock 19. I am quite used to Glock and firing the Kahr has proven to be difficult for accurate and quick follow up shots.

I carried the 19 for a while, but after a while it became more of a hassle than I could cope with and given I'm 5'9 and 165 lbs, it prints like a mofo on me. So I went with the Kahr. The Kahr carries wonderfully! However, it is just very difficult to shoot for me. Add the fact that all of my training is done with Glocks, coming back to the Kahr just makes me feel like I'm having to relearn again and again.

For those that train regularly with Glocks and have owned or do own a kahr. Does it get easier as time goes on? Or do most give up and just go with the 26/27 to maintain their platform? I get that if you don't train tactically and regularly, this isn't that big of a deal... But keeping muscle memory for me is a big deal. That, however, is matched with the strong desire to have a firearm that conceals well and is somewhat tolerable.

Any opinions from those in a similar situation are welcome!
seems like your biggest issue is that you can no longer comfortably carry concealed the glock 19 without it printing. Maybe you should look into a new holster set up. MTAC, Crossbreed super tuck, and Desantis intruder are very good hybrid holsters that are comfortable IWB holsters that works wonders when it comes to concealability. My EDC is a blawkhawk talon flex instructor belt with an MTAC holster. I plan on getting a beltman belt for more formal occassions. You already know the glock 19 is very reliable and muscle memory is a huge advantage if S... hit the fan..Just my opinion
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:19   #10
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To answer the question presented in the Op we would need to know what part of shooting the Kahr is giving you issues? Is it the trigger pull? The grip? What?
Ah yes... It's mostly the trigger but I also feel as if I don't get a tight enough grip on the Kahr either. The Glock almost forces a tight grip due to it's thicker frame whereas when I come back to the Kahr, I notice my grip is a little weak. It's also the stock sights on the Kahr, but I know I can change those out and may do just that if I decide to keep it.

Switching back and forth between the excessively long pull and reset of the Kahr to the very short pull and reset of the Glock is what is tough for me to grasp. When I shoot the Kahr for a couple of weeks and then come back to the Glock, I find myself releasing the trigger of the Glock too much and not getting good follow up shots. When I shoot the Glock for a couple of weeks and come back to the Kahr, I find myself shooting at 6 o'clock a lot, especially on follow up shots.

My first shot with the Kahr is fine. I can get it dead on target as long as I take my time pulling the trigger (which I don't particularly like, cause I wouldn't do that in a defense situation), and follow up shots are fine as long as they're slow too... but if I try to practice point shooting and double and triple taps, I am always shooting 6 o'clock and I know it's cause of my lack of tolerance for the DAO trigger.

Again, spending time with the Kahr I'm sure would help, but once I do that and then if I have to jump on the Glock, I start shooting the Glock terribly.

Any suggestions on how to mix the two well would help...
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Old 05-03-2010, 12:44   #11
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The Kahr trigger is a wonderful thing. I really do think it is the best thing about them. I am one of the few people that think their size is the second best thing about them. I just love that trigger.

The bad thing about a Kahr trigger is it does require some getting used to by most shooters. I found myself taking to it like a duck to water. That is mainly because I was primarily a revolver shooter most of my life. If you have grown up on a diet of semi-autos you will have to adjust.

It does take some time to adjust to the longer pull but once you do you will find yourself wondering why all guns are not like that. You might even find your accuracy increasing at the range since the trigger is so fluid and predictable. It also doesn't hurt that all of my Kahrs test out to be a good bit more accurate from a rest than my Glocks. You might be glad you made the switch solely for that fact if you ever need your gun at a long distance.

As for your grip, do not squeeze so tight. You do not need a death grip on the gun. The gun is designed to stay in your hand as long as you do your part. Squeezing the life out of the gun is not only going to tire your hand but it will effect your accuracy and speed. It will make you twist the gun and make it harder to get the gun back into position.

Squeezing really hard also makes it harder for you to master your trigger pull. It makes it harder to learn exactly the right amount of pressure and makes it harder to reset your finger.

In the end, the stock Kahr will never shoot as fast as a stock Glock. But it just might shoot better for you. In a bad situation I would rather be able to place 6 shots dead center in 3 seconds than I would be able to place 8 shots all over the place in 2 seconds. But it will be up to you as to which gun ends up being the best for you. I personally shoot the Kahr more accurately than a Glock for the factors I mentioned above. Many people have the opposite experience. It will all come down to practice and personal achievement.

As this pic shows, the Kahr can do it's part if you practice.

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Old 05-03-2010, 14:11   #12
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Well, I never said I'm trying to get a death grip on the pistol.. Just tight enough to manage recoil and aim properly...

I can get nice 2-3" groupings with the glock and it was the first pistol I ever shot. It took little time and coaching to get there. With the Kahr, I just feel like it's not happening unless I'm really slow and careful with the trigger pull.

The glock (and other normal semi auto pistols) have a very pronounced trigger break point. You know how much slack to take out. The Kahr is definitely smooth and feels good, but it's not as pronounced. It's smooth all the way through. I feel like that's my issue... I can't determine it's break point so I can take the slack out like in my other pistols.
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Old 05-03-2010, 15:46   #13
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Well, I never said I'm trying to get a death grip on the pistol.. Just tight enough to manage recoil and aim properly...

I can get nice 2-3" groupings with the glock and it was the first pistol I ever shot. It took little time and coaching to get there. With the Kahr, I just feel like it's not happening unless I'm really slow and careful with the trigger pull.

The glock (and other normal semi auto pistols) have a very pronounced trigger break point. You know how much slack to take out. The Kahr is definitely smooth and feels good, but it's not as pronounced. It's smooth all the way through. I feel like that's my issue... I can't determine it's break point so I can take the slack out like in my other pistols.
Just keep working with it and you will start to feel the break point very clearly. How much experience do you have with revolvers?
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Old 05-03-2010, 18:03   #14
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I would normally agree with you here, but, it's a known issue and fact that Kahr magazines are poorly made due to the top round being able to wiggle out very easily and due to forcing the kahr to require you (their words, not mine) to have the slide locked open when inserting a new mag and chambering the first round or risk having it nose dive into the feed ramp.

Kahr has received thousands of complaints about the mag design they have. There are tons of people posting on forums about it and there are YouTube videos about trying to find workarounds for it... Kahr ignores all of this and tells us we should load our pistols the way they tell us to and shut up.

ProMag takes care of both of the issues described above. With that being said, yes, sadly enough, ProMag magazines are more reliable than Kahr's this time around.
Are you going off internet talk or real experience?

My Kahr P9 will chamber a round by "slingshotting" it every time.

My Kahr P9 has never had a failure of any kind ( right around 1000 rounds including the break in period) with factory mags,it failed many times with the Promags,more on hollowpoints than ball.
My PM9 also has been flawless for me for >300 rounds(I bought it used) and it also failed on the promags as well.

If you are trying some for range mags great but I would never recommend anyone use one for carry.
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Old 05-03-2010, 21:34   #15
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Just keep working with it and you will start to feel the break point very clearly. How much experience do you have with revolvers?
Absolutely no experience with revolvers. I have only used glock, xd, m&p and 1911
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Old 05-03-2010, 21:39   #16
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Are you going off internet talk or real experience?

My Kahr P9 will chamber a round by "slingshotting" it every time.

My Kahr P9 has never had a failure of any kind ( right around 1000 rounds including the break in period) with factory mags,it failed many times with the Promags,more on hollowpoints than ball.
My PM9 also has been flawless for me for >300 rounds(I bought it used) and it also failed on the promags as well.

If you are trying some for range mags great but I would never recommend anyone use one for carry.
I'm going off my personal experience on the first round nose diving into the feedramp regularly when loading from a slide forward situation. Kahr themselves know this is an issue and says that it is not an issue according to them because their manual says you must load the kahr from a slide locked position...

The promag suggestion is definitely Internet talk as I have only started researching how to fix this issue because it caused problems in my last class.

So, half and half I guess.

Youre the first person that I've heard from that hasn't had the nose dive issue...
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Old 05-03-2010, 21:43   #17
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I'm definitely dedicated to learn how to shoot the Kahr. I have a class coming up this weekend and I'm leaving my Glock at home. I will use the Kahr through the whole 1,200 round class... Maybe something will "click" during that time.
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:19   #18
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Absolutely no experience with revolvers. I have only used glock, xd, m&p and 1911
You might actually benefit from spending some time shooting a wheel gun or two. It will help you learn how to adjust to the Kahr trigger. Having a similar feeling trigger with the visual aid of the hammer helps you learn how to anticipate the trigger break.

As for the loading issue. I have never had a problem with Kahr mags and I have never been able to find anyone I trust that has either. If you follow the guns instructions for the first few hundred rounds the first round issue disappears completely. In fact my guns have had the issue disappear much quicker if I actually put some rounds through them.
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:49   #19
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I'm going off my personal experience on the first round nose diving into the feedramp regularly when loading from a slide forward situation. Kahr themselves know this is an issue and says that it is not an issue according to them because their manual says you must load the kahr from a slide locked position...

The promag suggestion is definitely Internet talk as I have only started researching how to fix this issue because it caused problems in my last class.

So, half and half I guess.

Youre the first person that I've heard from that hasn't had the nose dive issue...
Add me to your list of people that have never had this issue. I have owned the gun for years.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:42   #20
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As for the loading issue. I have never had a problem with Kahr mags and I have never been able to find anyone I trust that has either. If you follow the guns instructions for the first few hundred rounds the first round issue disappears completely. In fact my guns have had the issue disappear much quicker if I actually put some rounds through them.
So you're saying you had the problem initially but it went away after the breakin period?
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