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Old 07-27-2010, 17:59   #1
Deaf Smith
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Ayoob: 173 yard shot to stop a fleeing felon

Have any of you read the latest American Handgunner and the Ayoob Files? That's the Sept/Oct. Issue.

173 yard shot with a M66 .357 (one shot fired!) and hits and stops a fleeing felon. Standing up firing two handed at that! And considering the shooter, it was no accident or fluke!

And a month or so ago Ayoob wrote about an Air Force security guard engaging an AK welding shooter at 70 yards with a M9.

It gives a lesson that long range shooting can defiantly happen in defensive shooting, and with today’s terrorist threat even more so.

Deaf
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Old 07-27-2010, 18:02   #2
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Now that is some shooting !
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Old 07-27-2010, 21:00   #3
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Hell yea, that's some shooting!
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Old 07-27-2010, 21:27   #4
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173 is waaay out there. I usually bring out a 45 at the outdoor range with my buddies. It actually isn't that hard to get dang close at about 100 wo any trouble. I hit a gallon milk jug in 3 shots.
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Old 07-27-2010, 21:41   #5
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And people thought I was crazy for considering carrying a k frame .357 specifically for this reason!
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Old 07-28-2010, 08:23   #6
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If a private individual shoots a fleeing person at 170yds and injures or kills the person, he can expect to be sued and loose. Loose BIG.
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Old 07-28-2010, 10:29   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
If a private individual shoots a fleeing person at 170yds and injures or kills the person, he can expect to be sued and loose. Loose BIG.
It would depend on who you shot, where and why. A dangerous person, with intent to harm others (a credible threat and belief) that was making his way to do said damage, might be "shootable" (for lack of a better term) by anyone.

As for shooting a fleeing person, there was a homeowner here in Mobile County, AL that shot a nonviolent fleeing burglar, from over 100 yards, with a scoped rifle. He was charged by the DA but the jury declared him not guilty. I don't believe there was a lawsuit filed in that case. Granted, you can sue anyone for anything.
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:01   #8
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Quote:
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If a private individual shoots a fleeing person at 170yds and injures or kills the person, he can expect to be sued and loose. Loose BIG.
Perhaps, but that's not relevant here. The article in question is referring to a law enforcement officer in the performance of his duties.
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:23   #9
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The first post does not state that so I was making that clear.
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:26   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaTrooper View Post
It would depend on who you shot, where and why. A dangerous person, with intent to harm others (a credible threat and belief) that was making his way to do said damage, might be "shootable" (for lack of a better term) by anyone.

As for shooting a fleeing person, there was a homeowner here in Mobile County, AL that shot a nonviolent fleeing burglar, from over 100 yards, with a scoped rifle. He was charged by the DA but the jury declared him not guilty. I don't believe there was a lawsuit filed in that case. Granted, you can sue anyone for anything.
Exceptions to every rule. Your rolling the dice in most states. You need to be able to prove threat in most situations. It's a state by state thing if theft qualifies.
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Old 07-28-2010, 12:03   #11
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Presuming a 'good shoot', I'm impressed with the idea of reaching out and touching someone at a distance if possible. Servicing targets at the maximum feasible range is something worth training for. I'd say 173 yards first shot was ****house luck, and ya'll know that too, no matter if he was good or not, he WAS lucky, and sometime good shooters get lucky too. A lousy shooter would have been lucky to have made the same shot at 30 yards, it's just the luck had more to work with in his case.
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Old 07-28-2010, 17:29   #12
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The shooter in question, Detective Sgt. Andrew Scot (of Scott, McDougall & Associates fame) was an expert shot, rangemaster, department armor, competitive shot (IHMSA at that) and his M66 was customized with strippled front trigger guard, Houge Monogrips, strippled exposed backstrap, and dovetailed bright yellow insert on his front sight. Even custom holster!

And the felon, known to be armed, was running toward a innocent woman but she was well out of the line of fire.

So Scott knew himself, knew his weapon, and knew his enemy. Sun Tzu would be proud.

Deaf
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Old 07-28-2010, 17:52   #13
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Deaf Smith nailed it.

Story should be available online at no charge in the current issue of American Handgunner at www.americanhandgunner.com.

best,
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Old 07-28-2010, 19:38   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
The shooter in question, Dectective Sgt. Andrew Scot (of Scott, McDougall & Associates fame) was an expert shot, rangemaster, department armor, competitive shot (IHMSA at that) and his M66 was customized with strippled front trigger guard, Houge Monogrips, strippled exposed backstrap, and dovetailed bright yellow instert on his front sight. Even custom holster!

And the felon, known to be armed, was running toward a innocent woman but she was well out of the line of fire.

So Scott knew himself, knew his weapon, and knew his enemy. Sun Tzu would be proud.

Deaf
Wow, thats awesome. Thanks for a better description.
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Old 07-28-2010, 19:39   #15
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Link to story in American Handgunner: http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/...HSO10/?page=20

Andy Brown telling his story (The Air Force MP Deaf referred to above). Available here on the ProArms podcast: http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/09/13...nt-andy-brown/
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Old 07-28-2010, 20:02   #16
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Guys,

yes do read the article (I bought the magazine.)

Mas,

I’ve read just about everything you have written, from the time you wrote articles in SOF, back in the ‘70s. And ‘The Ayoob Files’ I find are very serious lessons to be learned. And that was why LFI-1 didn't show me much new (but that's ok, it did reinforce it!)

And many times Mas has pointed out, skill at arms is very important (as well as guts.) And while long range shooting is rare, it most defiantly happens. I can't say I can do reliable 150+ yard shots with my Glock 26 (my chosen carry gun) but 50 yard shots are definite, thanks to IHMSA and NRA hunter pistol.

Truly, know yourself and know your enemy.

Deaf
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Old 07-31-2010, 00:56   #17
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173 yards is plenty of time to whip out the netbook with the attached wind direction sensors and perform the bullet drop compensation and wind doping for the shot...

Puppy Chow...



Pretty sure I need to *shut up* now and get out to the 200 yrd range and get to work.
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Old 07-31-2010, 06:57   #18
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Pierre,

It isn't the wind doping, the compensation table, laser rangefinder, etc... that is gonna do the shot. It's the steady hands, the well practiced trigger control, sharp eye and knowing your gun.

Scott had none of the above fancy gizmos and he made the shot, off his hind legs no less.

Deaf
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Old 07-31-2010, 14:14   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
Exceptions to every rule. Your rolling the dice in most states. You need to be able to prove threat in most situations. It's a state by state thing if theft qualifies.
By state law, he was hung. That is why the charges were brought. Jury nullification saved him.

As for justifying the threat, yes.
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Old 08-02-2010, 00:08   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
Have any of you read the latest American Handgunner and the Ayoob Files? That's the Sept/Oct. Issue.

173 yard shot with a M66 .357 (one shot fired!) and hits and stops a fleeing felon. Standing up firing two handed at that! And considering the shooter, it was no accident or fluke!

And a month or so ago Ayoob wrote about an Air Force security guard engaging an AK welding shooter at 70 yards with a M9.

It gives a lesson that long range shooting can defiantly happen in defensive shooting, and with today’s terrorist threat even more so.

Deaf
A bit of both I imagine. I used to shoot met sil, offhand, 220yds. You can hit a 12"sq plate @ that range w/ a 44mg w/ surprising regularity. Know your gun & load, press, repeat as necessary.
The 70yd shooting w/ a 9mm, I would say most decent shooters could do that w/ very little practice.
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Old 08-02-2010, 00:16   #21
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expect to be sued and loose. Loose BIG.
That sounds fricken painful.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:36   #22
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Folks, when you take the higher level of Mas's courses you will take the long shot and you will make it.
For his MAG 80 coursethe Sierra Vista range is completing a long combat range next to the handgun range.
In my Advance Class I've been teaching Military/LEO at Ft. Huachuca we do the Andy Brown drill at a measured 70 meters. We recently had a retired LEO who is on this site hit 12 out of 12 head shots. An Army Sergeant did 11 of 12,Tactics and Training as did a Cochise County Sheriff's instructor. I'll put a pic up in a few minutes.

Last edited by threefeathers; 08-03-2010 at 10:05.. Reason: add pic which I screwed up
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:18   #23
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Quote:
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A bit of both I imagine. I used to shoot met sil, offhand, 220yds. You can hit a 12"sq plate @ that range w/ a 44mg w/ surprising regularity. Know your gun & load, press, repeat as necessary.
The 70yd shooting w/ a 9mm, I would say most decent shooters could do that w/ very little practice.
When I was a young man my father taught about long distance handgunning. In later years I used to enjoy taking my Ruger Super Blackhawk and making hits, shooting 2-handed unsupported, at gallon milk jugs at a little over 200 yards. It got so that I seldom missed when using a known load.

In more recent years I've occasionally used a dueling tree to make hits more often than not (6" plates) at 90-95 yards using a few different duty & off-duty pistols, including a G26. It can be done. I watched a couple of other senior instructors do the same thing with full size pistols (.40 & .45) one evening, too, hitting the 6" plates more often than missing them, and they were using NIB guns which they hadn't shot before, too.

Knowing your weapon and load, and always working to master the basics, can make for some enjoyable (and surprising) range sessions when it comes to distance shooting.

I haven't done much in the way of shooting beyond 100 yards with a handgun for some years, but I still remember the fun of being taught to shoot large targets with .357, .41 & .44 Magnum revolvers at distances of half a mile and more as a young man. Elmer Keith used to be quite the enthusiast of long distance handgunning back in those days.
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