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Old 07-31-2010, 18:04   #1
brigade101
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DPMS Panther Oracle any good ?

I was looking at the DPMS Panther Oracle , anyone know how it is ?
http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/product...=5632&cat=1891
Can't seem to find any reviews of it.

It would be used as a fun gun part time, a sit around HD gun most of the time and of course an all the time gun during the zombie apocalypse/giant meteor strike/ govt. collapse after a natural disaster etc... Not expecting a tack driver or anything, just to be able to hit an offenders human size body say out to 150 to 200 yds if he was flinging rounds my way . Reliable ?

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks
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Old 07-31-2010, 19:28   #2
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I have a classic 16 DPMS that is more accurate than the Colt H Bar that I sold. I've never had a problem with the DPMS. Considering what you intend to use the gun for, I would think it will serve you well.

With that said, expect NOTHING but S**t talk about DPMS. As soon as he gets his little feelings hurt, he will have this thread locked.
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Old 07-31-2010, 20:35   #3
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Get a Spikes
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Old 07-31-2010, 20:50   #4
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Nah, get a real gun from a company that's actually good. Get a BCM.



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Old 07-31-2010, 23:41   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brigade101 View Post
I was looking at the DPMS Panther Oracle , anyone know how it is ?
http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/product...=5632&cat=1891
Can't seem to find any reviews of it.

It would be used as a fun gun part time, a sit around HD gun most of the time and of course an all the time gun during the zombie apocalypse/giant meteor strike/ govt. collapse after a natural disaster etc... Not expecting a tack driver or anything, just to be able to hit an offenders human size body say out to 150 to 200 yds if he was flinging rounds my way . Reliable ?

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks
I don't care for DPMS based on a lot of personal experience with them failing. There are a lot of better choices out there. Its a buyers market right now so there is no reason you should not be able to get into some thing a lot better like a BCM without breaking the bank.

Most of the people that stick up for DPMS guns are causal shooters who go out to the range once or twice a year and put a few boxes of ammo down range. They like them because they are cheap. If you are one of those people a DPMS may be just fine for you. But if you want a gun that will run from the get go and stay reliable look at something else. You get what you pay for.
Pat
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Last edited by Alaskapopo; 07-31-2010 at 23:43..
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Old 07-31-2010, 23:59   #6
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
I don't care for DPMS based on a lot of personal experience with them failing. There are a lot of better choices out there. Its a buyers market right now so there is no reason you should not be able to get into some thing a lot better like a BCM without breaking the bank.

Most of the people that stick up for DPMS guns are causal shooters who go out to the range once or twice a year and put a few boxes of ammo down range. They like them because they are cheap. If you are one of those people a DPMS may be just fine for you. But if you want a gun that will run from the get go and stay reliable look at something else. You get what you pay for.
Pat
And I have a lot of personal experience with DPMS NOT failing..........
So what.

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Old 08-01-2010, 01:34   #7
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I'd use one for hunting and the range. Nothing serious.
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:47   #8
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Originally Posted by Jester249 View Post
And I have a lot of personal experience with DPMS NOT failing..........
So what.
So you have one gun. I have been responsible for over 20 department weapons over the years.

Here is a good article about DPMS gun performance at a training class.

AAR - Center Mass, Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School

I recently returned from a Center Mass Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School. The course is an instructor-level, 5-day, 50+ hour curriculum of instruction on pertinent aspects of patrol rifle program development, training, and deployment. On the web here: http://www.centermassinc.com/638278.html

The Course:

Content covered the many pertinent aspects of LE patrol rifle programs. Topics were spaced out throughout the week in a logical sequence. Exercises were conducted in an allotment of time sufficient for the lowest common denominator to achieve a basic proficiency. Two sessions of classroom training were conducted, almost one full day on TD1 and the morning of TD3. Night exercises were conducted on TD3 and covered common low/no light deployment methods. The balance of the course was dry and live fire exercises on at the outdoor range facility.

Included within the course were exercises on a CAPS system for scenario based training. This was a highlight of the course for many, as most students had never used a live-fire simulation system. On the web at: http://www.caps-inc.com/

Throughout the week, students were prompted to spontaneously instruct a particular skill, coach others, and run the line as other students shot. When not assigned such a task, each student coached another student.

The course concluded with student presentations of assigned topics, a written test of material covered, and a COF most found challenging. The COF is well written, one of the better for this purpose in fact, and included a test of each skill learned within the course.

Each student received an exceptionally well prepared and comprehensive manual containing the entirety of course content, as well as additional supportive information and resources.

Students:

Students in attendance were all currently serving law enforcement firearms instructors in agencies deploying patrol rifles, planning to, or contemplating same. Previous training and experience varied, with some who had substantial training, instructional background, or operational experience, and others with only basic/initial LEFI certs. The latter were the bulk of the class. Most of the students were known to each other, and the class gelled well.

Equipment:

Equipment varied. Some arrived with quality gear proven to be GTG that ran with boring reliability. The tendency of administrators to economize was clearly evident, and there was a disproportionate amount of gear purchased with economy in mind rather than performance. There were no surprises.

DPMS: Several in attendance. A disproportionate amount of the stoppages, failures, and issues were with these guns. None possessed sufficient gas key staking. None were staked at the receiver extension nut. One had suspect chamber dims. None had the correct extractor spring assembly. One officer brought a carbine with a 4-position selector, sequenced (from the 9:00) Safe-Auto-Semi-Burst. He fought the gun. DPMS buyers cited low price and immediate availability as primary purchase criteria. When discussing desirable assembly methods and the reasons for them, one owner asked, “why don’t they just do that at the factory?” Overheard from another: “There are four problems with my gun: 1) D. 2) P. 3) M. 4) S.”

Eotechs: The first went loose on TD1, and 2 more during the week. The first went loose again later as well. Guys with these on their guns learned fast, and constantly checked their gear. Also heard: “Hey, who turned off my sight?”

Defensive Edge SLR-15: Nicely assembled. Positive staking of all pertinents. Proper extractor spring insert. When lubed correctly, it ran well. Unresolved quirk while seating a couple of mags. Pending.

HK G36K: Two in attendance, both ran well. The stocks are too long for pretty much everyone, and especially for IBOs. HK mags tend to hang in pouches and pockets due to the tabs that link them together. If mags won’t be linked together in the field, users might consider shaving them off.

Mini-14: Get it hot, run it dry, and watch it lock up tight. Credit where credit is due: the firing pin and extractor made it.

Remington Rem-Oil: Doesn’t go the distance. A light, sporting/commercial grade lubricant that should stay in that venue.

Weaponshield CLP: At least as good as the other CLPs out there, and just may be much better than most. Comparatively less evap, burn-off, and run-off than others on the line, especially Breakfree.

Stoppages due to insufficient lube- multiple. The “less is more” mantras, old military habits, and aversions to having a “messy gun” die hard. Some learned, stubborn others will return to the road with guns that won’t run long.

Loose pistol grip screws- 2. While effecting repair of one, an instructor was surprised to learn that PG screws were not standardized, with some being slotted and some being hex. Only the slotted driver was readily available.

Extraction failures- multiple. Several guns came with rifle extractor spring assemblies, and it showed. Weak or absent extraction in fouled or hot guns was frequent. Most commonly in DPMS.

Magazine issues- Various problems from USGI mags that have been kept in service too long. Some D&H mags were seen with that soft, easily deformed quasi-GI follower.

Likewise, the ammunition supplied for this course provided its own quirks. 21 shooters fired ~21,000 rounds of Remington UMC 55gr MC (p/n L223R3). Bullet setback, bullet deformation, case deformation, jacket/core separation in 1/7 twist, and failures to fire were observed. There were no catastrophic failures.

As always, you get what you pay for. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Some gear that should’ve had issues was spared them. The firing schedule was more than most were used to, but not particularly intense. Further indictment of the gear that faltered.

My gear ran without issue, as it always has. Worn daily:

Colt LE6920 w/ irons only, mounted Surefire G2, Specter sling.
Magpul PMags and CProducts SS mags in Wilderness pouches.
3 handguns, Glocks 23 (belt), 27 (ankle), SW 642 (pocket). Worn every day.
Surefire E-series lights in the pockets.

This was the major shakedown cruise for PMags, and they did well. One showed some resistance to seating in the 6920 and did not drop free when empty. Removing a little material from the top of the mag catch detent seems to have done the trick.

This was also a test of the Weaponshield CLP sample(s) sent from the manufacturer. I started TD1 with a clean and lubed gun. Relubed TD3. Knocked the chunks out and relubed on the morning of TD4. Cleaned and relubed late TD4 and shot TD5 clean. Due to the combined hot/cold range management and breezy conditions, I was able to accumulate a good quantity of dirt and dust along the way as well.

My final round count: ~1200rds.

Parting thoughts:

LESO/1033 M-16s remain viable and popular patrol rifles. They are quality builds, and perform well when properly maintained. When service is indicated, put the good stuff in it to keep it going.

A competent shooter does not require an accessorized M4-type to bring the fight to the bad guy. An incompetent shooter isn’t made better by one. Fundamentals first, especially for the police patrol environment.

Optics and accessories add a dimension to training most instructors underestimate. But they're neat, aren't they?

Instructor development is not a course or a certification, it’s a pursuit that doesn’t end.

Based on the above, I recommend this course to others in need of training on the subject. Good week.
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Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.
Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
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USPSA B class

Last edited by Alaskapopo; 08-01-2010 at 02:12..
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Old 08-01-2010, 08:20   #9
Jester249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
So you have one gun. I have been responsible for over 20 department weapons over the years.

Here is a good article about DPMS gun performance at a training class.

AAR - Center Mass, Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School

I recently returned from a Center Mass Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School. The course is an instructor-level, 5-day, 50+ hour curriculum of instruction on pertinent aspects of patrol rifle program development, training, and deployment. On the web here: http://www.centermassinc.com/638278.html

The Course:

Content covered the many pertinent aspects of LE patrol rifle programs. Topics were spaced out throughout the week in a logical sequence. Exercises were conducted in an allotment of time sufficient for the lowest common denominator to achieve a basic proficiency. Two sessions of classroom training were conducted, almost one full day on TD1 and the morning of TD3. Night exercises were conducted on TD3 and covered common low/no light deployment methods. The balance of the course was dry and live fire exercises on at the outdoor range facility.

Included within the course were exercises on a CAPS system for scenario based training. This was a highlight of the course for many, as most students had never used a live-fire simulation system. On the web at: http://www.caps-inc.com/

Throughout the week, students were prompted to spontaneously instruct a particular skill, coach others, and run the line as other students shot. When not assigned such a task, each student coached another student.

The course concluded with student presentations of assigned topics, a written test of material covered, and a COF most found challenging. The COF is well written, one of the better for this purpose in fact, and included a test of each skill learned within the course.

Each student received an exceptionally well prepared and comprehensive manual containing the entirety of course content, as well as additional supportive information and resources.

Students:

Students in attendance were all currently serving law enforcement firearms instructors in agencies deploying patrol rifles, planning to, or contemplating same. Previous training and experience varied, with some who had substantial training, instructional background, or operational experience, and others with only basic/initial LEFI certs. The latter were the bulk of the class. Most of the students were known to each other, and the class gelled well.

Equipment:

Equipment varied. Some arrived with quality gear proven to be GTG that ran with boring reliability. The tendency of administrators to economize was clearly evident, and there was a disproportionate amount of gear purchased with economy in mind rather than performance. There were no surprises.

DPMS: Several in attendance. A disproportionate amount of the stoppages, failures, and issues were with these guns. None possessed sufficient gas key staking. None were staked at the receiver extension nut. One had suspect chamber dims. None had the correct extractor spring assembly. One officer brought a carbine with a 4-position selector, sequenced (from the 9:00) Safe-Auto-Semi-Burst. He fought the gun. DPMS buyers cited low price and immediate availability as primary purchase criteria. When discussing desirable assembly methods and the reasons for them, one owner asked, “why don’t they just do that at the factory?” Overheard from another: “There are four problems with my gun: 1) D. 2) P. 3) M. 4) S.”

Eotechs: The first went loose on TD1, and 2 more during the week. The first went loose again later as well. Guys with these on their guns learned fast, and constantly checked their gear. Also heard: “Hey, who turned off my sight?”

Defensive Edge SLR-15: Nicely assembled. Positive staking of all pertinents. Proper extractor spring insert. When lubed correctly, it ran well. Unresolved quirk while seating a couple of mags. Pending.

HK G36K: Two in attendance, both ran well. The stocks are too long for pretty much everyone, and especially for IBOs. HK mags tend to hang in pouches and pockets due to the tabs that link them together. If mags won’t be linked together in the field, users might consider shaving them off.

Mini-14: Get it hot, run it dry, and watch it lock up tight. Credit where credit is due: the firing pin and extractor made it.

Remington Rem-Oil: Doesn’t go the distance. A light, sporting/commercial grade lubricant that should stay in that venue.

Weaponshield CLP: At least as good as the other CLPs out there, and just may be much better than most. Comparatively less evap, burn-off, and run-off than others on the line, especially Breakfree.

Stoppages due to insufficient lube- multiple. The “less is more” mantras, old military habits, and aversions to having a “messy gun” die hard. Some learned, stubborn others will return to the road with guns that won’t run long.

Loose pistol grip screws- 2. While effecting repair of one, an instructor was surprised to learn that PG screws were not standardized, with some being slotted and some being hex. Only the slotted driver was readily available.

Extraction failures- multiple. Several guns came with rifle extractor spring assemblies, and it showed. Weak or absent extraction in fouled or hot guns was frequent. Most commonly in DPMS.

Magazine issues- Various problems from USGI mags that have been kept in service too long. Some D&H mags were seen with that soft, easily deformed quasi-GI follower.

Likewise, the ammunition supplied for this course provided its own quirks. 21 shooters fired ~21,000 rounds of Remington UMC 55gr MC (p/n L223R3). Bullet setback, bullet deformation, case deformation, jacket/core separation in 1/7 twist, and failures to fire were observed. There were no catastrophic failures.

As always, you get what you pay for. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Some gear that should’ve had issues was spared them. The firing schedule was more than most were used to, but not particularly intense. Further indictment of the gear that faltered.

My gear ran without issue, as it always has. Worn daily:

Colt LE6920 w/ irons only, mounted Surefire G2, Specter sling.
Magpul PMags and CProducts SS mags in Wilderness pouches.
3 handguns, Glocks 23 (belt), 27 (ankle), SW 642 (pocket). Worn every day.
Surefire E-series lights in the pockets.

This was the major shakedown cruise for PMags, and they did well. One showed some resistance to seating in the 6920 and did not drop free when empty. Removing a little material from the top of the mag catch detent seems to have done the trick.

This was also a test of the Weaponshield CLP sample(s) sent from the manufacturer. I started TD1 with a clean and lubed gun. Relubed TD3. Knocked the chunks out and relubed on the morning of TD4. Cleaned and relubed late TD4 and shot TD5 clean. Due to the combined hot/cold range management and breezy conditions, I was able to accumulate a good quantity of dirt and dust along the way as well.

My final round count: ~1200rds.

Parting thoughts:

LESO/1033 M-16s remain viable and popular patrol rifles. They are quality builds, and perform well when properly maintained. When service is indicated, put the good stuff in it to keep it going.

A competent shooter does not require an accessorized M4-type to bring the fight to the bad guy. An incompetent shooter isn’t made better by one. Fundamentals first, especially for the police patrol environment.

Optics and accessories add a dimension to training most instructors underestimate. But they're neat, aren't they?

Instructor development is not a course or a certification, it’s a pursuit that doesn’t end.

Based on the above, I recommend this course to others in need of training on the subject. Good week.

And the original poster will be well served by the DPMS he is looking at. Your anecdotes about DPMS are, as usual, humors and entertaining........

Now it's about time for you to report this thread to get it locked down.
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Old 08-01-2010, 08:22   #10
Jester249
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Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
So you have one gun. I have been responsible for over 20 department weapons over the years.
One gun does not constitute a lot of experience to me. And all 20 guns? Wow!! How did you ever manage to keep up?
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Old 08-01-2010, 08:32   #11
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Originally Posted by brigade101 View Post
I was looking at the DPMS Panther Oracle , anyone know how it is ?
http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/product...=5632&cat=1891
Can't seem to find any reviews of it.

It would be used as a fun gun part time, a sit around HD gun most of the time and of course an all the time gun during the zombie apocalypse/giant meteor strike/ govt. collapse after a natural disaster etc... Not expecting a tack driver or anything, just to be able to hit an offenders human size body say out to 150 to 200 yds if he was flinging rounds my way . Reliable ?

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...=5&output=html

Look at "The Chart" and see where and how things stack up. It is a good reference. I damn sure would not use advice from most people (including me) on the internet. Look around and see if what you want, will fit your needs. Then YOU decide what you want.
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Old 08-01-2010, 08:42   #12
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FWIW, I have a 20" DPMS Classic Lite that has been outstanding. It is also much more than an occasional shooter. I have run well over 7,000 rounds through it in the last year I have owned it. I should also mention it has been more than target shooting. My buddies and I do practice tactial shooting, etc. although I will admit it is not some formal instruction class. My rifle kept chugging along just fine while I watched guns from "Superior" manufacturers go down and were not able to be put back in action with a simple tap, rack, bang drill. It actually just had its first hiccup yesterday that was totally attributed to bad ammo. The cases got locked up TIGHT in the chamber more than once. They were all from the same box of ammo. The gun itself has been flawless. It was Wolf ammo, and up until that box, the gun had eaten that, along with every type of brass cased stuff I had put through it.

It is also my "Go to War" gun because it is accurate and has never let me down yet.

Based on my experiences with DPMS, I would recommend one to anybody.
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Old 08-01-2010, 08:58   #13
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Oh no now there are two of us disagreeing with Pat!!!
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:03   #14
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Oh no now there are two of us disagreeing with Pat!!!
I am really not trying to disagree with anybody or stir up a hornet's nest. I was just giving my experiences and $0.02 on DPMS. I really enjoy mine, and you must your's as well. I would say any modern rifle made by any reputable manufacturer is good to go. I personally think it comes down to how much money you wanna spend for the name on the side of the receiver.
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:25   #15
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buy it without hesitation, I have had 3 DPMS's for many years now and they all work just fine.
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:47   #16
Jester249
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I am really not trying to disagree with anybody or stir up a hornet's nest. I was just giving my experiences and $0.02 on DPMS. I really enjoy mine, and you must your's as well. I would say any modern rifle made by any reputable manufacturer is good to go. I personally think it comes down to how much money you wanna spend for the name on the side of the receiver.
I agree. But "some" refuse to do anything but bash DPMS. Seems there is some sort of a personal vendetta.
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:55   #17
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I agree. But "some" refuse to do anything but bash DPMS. Seems there is some sort of a personal vendetta.
I got ya now. No worries my friend. I guess you and I will continue to enjoy the rifles we bought at a fraction of the cost of other guns with a cooler logo.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:05   #18
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Originally Posted by DeerPredator View Post
I got ya now. No worries my friend. I guess you and I will continue to enjoy the rifles we bought at a fraction of the cost of other guns with a cooler logo.

Please define "fraction of the cost" and please show that DPMS is identical to top tier ARs with the exception of logo.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:39   #19
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Please define "fraction of the cost" and please show that DPMS is identical to top tier ARs with the exception of logo.
He never said anything about being identical. He did say he spent less money (fraction of the cost) and will continue to enjoy the rifles he has. He also said there were guns with cooler logos.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:44   #20
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Originally Posted by Jester249 View Post
He never said anything about being identical. He did say he spent less money (fraction of the cost) and will continue to enjoy the rifles he has. He also said there were guns with cooler logos.

His statement implied a much lower cost (a fraction), and he implied that the only difference is the "cooler logo." I have no problem with someone getting DPMS, that is their choice. But to misrepresent the differences is not fair to those seeking info here.
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