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Old 08-01-2010, 11:46   #1
cowboy1964
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tnoutdoor9's test of Winchester PDX 124+P

Very surprising result. And worrisome. It's very rare one sees absolutely NO expansion whatsoever on a premium JHP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-Hkt...os=StNkZxFpWSY
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Old 08-01-2010, 11:47   #2
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thats too bad...my wal mart has those in stock, too :(
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Old 08-01-2010, 12:41   #3
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Judging from all the tests available.

PDX1 = More penetration and less expansion.
HST = More expansion and less penetration.
Gold Dot falls between these two.
Ranger T results are similar to Gold Dot.
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Old 08-01-2010, 23:43   #4
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I think that is possible in any ammo out there today. It seems to be a rare occurrence, but wouldn't rule it out for any ammo, especially shooting through four layers on denim.

I would like to see it retested.
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Old 08-02-2010, 15:13   #5
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This guy isnt quite as scientific or as detailed, but I watch his videos as well. This video shows the 124 gr+p PDX1 expanded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M283nWhLPmk
I agree, this could happen with any ammo not just the PDX1's. I think we still need to see more testing on this round in the future.
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Old 08-05-2010, 14:50   #6
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Yes, I was very surprised as well. Too bad you could not hear my off-camera comments when I found the bullet. The ammo donor sent me an entire box, I have a few extra rounds and will retest at some point in August.
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Old 08-05-2010, 16:18   #7
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One sample does NOT a statistically-reliable conclusion make.

Did tnoutdoor9 run out of time? Jugs?

My results of testing mutliple samples of the .40-cal. PDX1 in waterjugs--without denim--is significantly different.

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Old 08-05-2010, 16:34   #8
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thank you, JB!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreybehr View Post
One sample does NOT a statistically-reliable conclusion make.

Did tnoutdoor9 run out of time? Jugs?

My results of testing mutliple samples of the .40-cal. PDX1 in waterjugs--without denim--is significantly different.

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Conclusions cannot be drawn from shooting one bullet▬at least five should be fired from the same lot or box..
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Old 08-05-2010, 18:58   #9
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http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?...highlight=PDX1

50% (5 of 10) failures to expand with 180gr .40 Ranger Bonded (same as PDX1) after denim. How do those odds sound to you?

Last edited by DRT; 08-05-2010 at 19:06..
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Old 08-05-2010, 19:02   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreybehr View Post
One sample does NOT a statistically-reliable conclusion make.

Did tnoutdoor9 run out of time? Jugs?

My results of testing mutliple samples of the .40-cal. PDX1 in waterjugs--without denim--is significantly different.

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Without denim? Who cares. Just about any bullet will expand in water with no intermediate barrier like clothing in front of it.
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Old 08-05-2010, 20:28   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
Without denim? Who cares. Just about any bullet will expand in water with no intermediate barrier like clothing in front of it.
Passed the FBI tests and beat out Gold Dot for the largest contract to date.
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Old 08-06-2010, 04:19   #12
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Quote:
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Passed the FBI tests and beat out Gold Dot for the largest contract to date.
that speaks volumes.........i wonder how many rounds the feds tested???
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:29   #13
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Man, this still makes me leary though. I was planning on switching to these too.
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:25   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpig View Post
Passed the FBI tests and beat out Gold Dot for the largest contract to date.
A few points:

1) FBI heavy clothing isn't as stringent as IWBA 4 layer denim protocol that was specifically developed when certain large LE agencies experienced failures to expand with loads that met FBI criteria. Loads that reliably expand in the IWBA protocol have proven to be reliable performers in OISs. I'm also not all that impressed with Gold dot's performance after IWBA heavy clothing.

2) Whether a fundamental design flaw, or production quality variability, these various tests give me some doubts. While all designs will have occassional failures, seems like a few too many for me to feel comfortable with this design.

3) http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1250492 hmmmm

Last edited by DRT; 08-06-2010 at 10:33..
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:53   #15
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On what grounds did it beat out Gold Dot? If something meets minimum standards and is less expensive, then that's a 'win' as far as contracts, etc. go. The FBI did run a reduced-velocity 165gr GDHP for a while.

With regards to tests, I'd like to see 5 or rounds chronied from a lot, then bullet from the same lot fired. When I get duty ammo for my agency, I always chrony, pull bullets, section/tear down sample rounds, etc. to try and find any problems with the lot.

An early lot of 64gr GDSP .223 rifle ammo *sucked* through windshield glass, and was beaten by a lighter more conventionally manufactured JSP in a test I was present for. Later lots of the same product seem to be doing much better through glass in published tests...go figure.
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Old 08-06-2010, 11:43   #16
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I recently "tested" the new Winchester 165 .40 PDX1 ammo.

From 10 yards, with my HK USP .40, it took 4, 1 gallon water jugs to stop this rd.
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Old 08-06-2010, 16:11   #17
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Was that denim, or newsprint?

To me it looks more like newsprint, but I cant say for sure.

Just my opinion, but I give newprint/phonebooks, ect absolutely no credit whatsoever. I think clay give a much better representation of what I bullet does. Cellulose is just completely unrealistic.

Would have been much better off using jugs full of water.

Sorry to sound bitter, its just I have noticed that 99% of ALL bullet failures in backyard testing happen through newsprint of phonebooks. I cant recall ANY failures in strait water. YES, bullets expand better in plain water, but at least the dont risk being clogged with paper.

Not only that, but outside of the jug, soaked newsprint and phonebooks dehydrate very quickly. As they are left to drain, and more importantly, as the energy from the bullet pushes the water out, the consistancy goes down.

I regularly test in my own ballistic gelatin. If anyone is interested, send me a few rounds and I would be happy to test them for you.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:48   #18
Mwinter
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G19fan,

PM me with a ship-to address....I'll send you some ammo to shoot. What calibers of ammunition can you run?
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Old 08-08-2010, 19:07   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?...highlight=PDX1

50% (5 of 10) failures to expand with 180gr .40 Ranger Bonded (same as PDX1) after denim. How do those odds sound to you?
It was concluded it was a bad lot of ammo. The new version (which is also now sold as PDX1 180gr) had some issues with expansion reliability in its early production runs. They had to redesign the 180gr bonded bullet because the old version (which looks like a plain JHP without the jacket "petals" folded over into the cavity) had major issues of expansion reliability through heavy clothing.
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:59   #20
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When the FBI thought the downloaded 165/40 Fed HS was the best, did everybody else?

When the FBI thought the downloaded 165/40 Speer GD was the best, did everybody else?

Why think this FBI pick is better than anything else?

It's the best for them based on how they test and rate ammo. I've got a copy of the RFP, and there's way more to it than meeting min specs and having the lowest price; that's not how they do it. Ammo is tested and scored, ammo w highest score gets the contract if the price is acceptable. You get the contract by being the best value, not the lowest bidder. Ditto pistolas.
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