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Old 08-27-2010, 17:37   #1
CTfam
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Is the shotgun really KING of HD?

I'm falling out of love with the shotgun... Talk to me here guys. It's pretty well known that buck shot and slugs are the best man stopping rounds available but that's pretty much all the shotgun has to offer. Incredible stopping power at close range. What are the other advantages of the shotgun for HD?

They are low capacity and slow to reload. Large and harder to maneuver than a pistol or carbine. Takes two hands to operate and are more expensive to train with. Most people that I know shoot more pistol/rifle at the range yet have their trusty pump loaded up for night duty. I think this is a mistake. I am guilty of this as well... That's why I am switching my HD primary to the same gun I carry and shoot every week. The Glock 17 with a TLR-1 attached. If there is a real SHTF event or home invasion I will go for the AK. Smaller, lighter, faster follow up shots, more range, can defeat armor, etc. Just my opinion.

I am not trying to trash the shotgun here. Just thinking out loud... Am I making a mistake putting the pump in the safe?

Please discuss.

In what situation would a shotgun be better than a pistol or rifle?
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Old 08-27-2010, 18:15   #2
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Shotgun still definitely has it's place. However, a carbine such as an AR would not be out of place.
-lighter weight
-16" shortest 'standard' legal vs shotgun at 18"
-30 rds vs 4-7 rds
-faster reloads
-quicker red dots are usually easier to install on AR
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Old 08-27-2010, 18:17   #3
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yes you are becouse your AK will overpenetrate and you might shoot tru a wall and kill someone innocent like a loved one.The shotgun has the stopping power and it doesnt overpenetrate like the 7x62 out of your AK will
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Old 08-27-2010, 18:33   #4
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dude, you need to watch the finale of LA Confidential again... lot of shotgun work there. I know it is a movie. There is a certain finality to 00 buck hitting center of mass. With a lot of practice, I have seen dudes make an 870 shoot like an automatic.
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Old 08-27-2010, 18:37   #5
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dude, you need to watch the finale of LA Confidential again...
One of the finest crime dramas ever filmed!
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Old 08-27-2010, 18:49   #6
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12ga will overpenetrate just like anything else. Even birdshot.


Is it the king? No. Shotguns are a hunting weapon first and foremost (back in the day, they were "fowling pieces" first). They were pressed into defensive use over the centuries because they were handy, and loaded with bigger shot, do the job.

A shotgun is a fairly inexpensive, hard hitting weapon that under crappy circumstances most people can still hit with and make an effective hit. In the dark without white lights (back in the day) it gave a much higher hit probability.

For a 1-badguy home invasion or even 2-badguy, a shotgun can do very good work. If you're in a serious firefight with multiple bad guys, the lower capacity/speed of reloading will come into play. In those situations, a rifle is a much better option and enough lead will be exchanging places that overpenetration is the least of your worries.

I prefer a rifle with a good load myself. But i would never turn down a shotgun if it was at hand instead of the rifle. Just be aware of both the capabilities and weaknesses of the weapon and load, and use it appropriately.
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Old 08-27-2010, 19:36   #7
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Originally Posted by dc2integra View Post
.The shotgun has the stopping power and it doesnt overpenetrate like the 7x62 out of your AK will
This is a personal issue to me for no real reason - but in the interest of helping people make good decisions:

The above statement is true, yet at the same time completely retarded (that's right, retarded. call the PC police)

Overpenetration is over penetration. You can hurt other people on the other side of the wall (or walls)

ANY caliber that is sufficiently reliable to STOP BG's will over penetrate.

The above poster makes it sound like a SG is safe and an AK is not. Here is the correct way to look at it: The are both extremely effing dangerous period. In doors, outdoors, wherever. You should not feel comfortable shooting either of them in your living room.

If it's so EXTRA safe compared to an AK, why don't you stand in the next room and let me shoot 00 buck at the wall?

Now here comes the tough guy cry: "Your being a jerk and calling me names! I didn't say that!!!!"

Yes you did - you absolutely wrote that so it sound like an SG was safe and an AK way over penetrated. If you did it on purpose, shame on you! That's BAD and dangerous advice. If you didn't, you are ignorant and should think before you type.

And if his hurts your feelings, kiss my ass. Read the above portion until you get it.

Last edited by Aceman; 08-27-2010 at 19:39..
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Old 08-27-2010, 19:40   #8
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Originally Posted by MrMurphy View Post
12ga will overpenetrate just like anything else. Even birdshot.


Is it the king? No. Shotguns are a hunting weapon first and foremost (back in the day, they were "fowling pieces" first). They were pressed into defensive use over the centuries because they were handy, and loaded with bigger shot, do the job.

A shotgun is a fairly inexpensive, hard hitting weapon that under crappy circumstances most people can still hit with and make an effective hit. In the dark without white lights (back in the day) it gave a much higher hit probability.

For a 1-badguy home invasion or even 2-badguy, a shotgun can do very good work. If you're in a serious firefight with multiple bad guys, the lower capacity/speed of reloading will come into play. In those situations, a rifle is a much better option and enough lead will be exchanging places that overpenetration is the least of your worries.

I prefer a rifle with a good load myself. But i would never turn down a shotgun if it was at hand instead of the rifle. Just be aware of both the capabilities and weaknesses of the weapon and load, and use it appropriately.
I agree 100%. First the issue of overpenetration... Anything that will put a hole in a person will put a hole in drywall/studs so understand that you are risking other peoples safety when you start spraying any firearm at someone. Only shoot if you have to and try to stay on target.

In regards to taking on one or two bad guys... I feel much more confident in my ability with a full size semi auto pistol than with a shotgun. Others may disagree but that's what I have most trigger time on. If I do run my pistol dry or find myself in a "serious firefight with multiple bad guys" then the rifle is KING.
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Old 08-27-2010, 19:48   #9
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Overpenetration is over penetration. You can hurt other people on the other side of the wall (or walls)

ANY caliber that is sufficiently reliable to STOP BG's will over penetrate.
Anyone seriously concerned about overpenetration should pick up a youth sized baseball bat and a bright flashlight. That will keep your neighbors safe.

Some overpenetration is good... Like through the ribs, heart and lungs of your attacker.
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Last edited by CTfam; 08-27-2010 at 19:50..
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Old 08-27-2010, 19:55   #10
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Edited for irrelevancy.

Last edited by MrMurphy; 08-27-2010 at 23:25..
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Old 08-27-2010, 20:01   #11
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Please settle this in PMs guys. Nobody gives a crap..... Back on topic.
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Old 08-27-2010, 20:08   #12
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Sorry for getting off topic. yea I agree to a certain extent I also feel more comfortable with my Glock 23 with TRL 1 over my shotgun.
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Old 08-27-2010, 20:19   #13
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Weight:

AK47 9.5 lbs
M4 Carbine 6 lbs
Mossberg 500 6 1/2 lbs (5 1/2 lbs pistol grip)

Length:

AK47 34" full stock
M4 33" Stock extend 14" barrel.
500 39" (28" with pistol grip)

18.5" Mossberg 500 with full stock is only 1/2 lb heavier then a M4 Carbine and lighter then an AK47. It is also 5"-6" longer with a full stock.

I really don't think the differences between the M4 and the Mossberg 500 are that huge, especially if you go with a 16" barreled M4.

Shotguns advantages.

1. Hits harder.
2. Greater variety of ammunition choices from non-lethal to buckshot and slugs.
3. Greater visual deterrence. That 3/4" hole looks like a train tunnel when someone points one at you.
4. Cheaper, about 1/4 the cost of a M4 carbine.
5. More reliable (as long as you don't short stroke it).
6. More acceptable to juries, if for some reason your shoot goes to court.

As for it's limited capacity. 6 shots of OO buckshot should solve any home invasion problem. Lets face it criminals are not like a squad of Marines. Sure there's a slight chance a gang of 4 or 5 criminals might try to break into your house while you are home, but after you put the first 2 down the others aren't going to hang around and fight it out with you, they'll be running as fast as they can. Even if the Marines are assaulting your house if you shoot the first couple of them coming through the door they aren't going to keep pouring into your kill zone, they are going to back up and use something with explosives in it to destroy you.

Is the shotgun king of home defense?

I think any reasonably powerful firearm that you shoot well will be the king of home defense if you have it ready when you need it.
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Last edited by vafish; 08-27-2010 at 20:22..
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Old 08-27-2010, 20:23   #14
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Great wite up ^^
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Old 08-27-2010, 20:28   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockPride View Post
Shotgun still definitely has it's place. However, a carbine such as an AR would not be out of place.
-lighter weight
-16" shortest 'standard' legal vs shotgun at 18"
-30 rds vs 4-7 rds
-faster reloads
-quicker red dots are usually easier to install on AR
Tactical Shotguns
20rd 12Ga drum
Tactical Shotguns

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Old 08-27-2010, 23:01   #16
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Tactical Shotguns
20rd 12Ga drum


HOLY COW MAN! How did you get that toaster the coffee maker and the blender on your gun?! You are inarguably The Man!
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Old 08-28-2010, 01:20   #17
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The shotgun has more initial fire power then an asault rifle or SMG. It is a close quarters weapon. HD is close quarters. There is no close quarters weapon with more fire power then a shotgun so yes it is King and even the King Kong of close quarters weapons.

A demonstration at the Metro Dade Police range proved this to me years ago. Two shooters each shooting through a metal frame which simluated a car window, with a backing a few feet behind to show hits.

Shooter #1 with a 20" 870 with 3 round extension and 8 12ga 2 3/4" 00 magnum 00 buckshot which has 12 pellets each. So 96 .32 caliber pellets.

Shooter #2 with MP-5 full auto SMG and 30 round mag.

Frames turned and both started shooting, the MP-5 guys was great on the trigger putting out three round burst. The guy on the shotgun was fantastic. The MP-5 finished a few milisconds before the 12ga but it was so close.

The point of the Demo was that the 12ga put 96 .32 caliber pellets through his frame in almost the same time the MP-5 SMG put 30 9mm through his. The 12ga provided three times the firepower.

Remember I said Initial fire power. Yes the MP-5 could be reloaded faster but the demo was to show that that if the threat is over reloading is not an issue.

Me, I opt for the most fire power I can bring to shoulder and that is a 12ga shotgun.
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Old 08-28-2010, 02:02   #18
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Most shotgun engagements happen late at night for the average Joe. I will probably be crusty eyed and fighting off the grogginess as I investigate the crash at my back sliding door?

Me personally, I like the ability to be able to shoot a moving target much easier with my 12 gauge than I can with my handgun or rifle. Nine "32 caliber projectiles" all flying at one pull of the trigger is just what I need under those conditions.

Every tool has its pros & cons though.

Last edited by mixflip; 08-28-2010 at 02:04..
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Old 08-28-2010, 05:39   #19
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There will always be different opinions, as for me, and older guy, I have an 1100 tactical ready to go where I can easily access it, my AR is in the Safe, and my G21 is in the nightstand right next to where I sleep.

I say yes, a 12 gauge with buckshot still has a place in a home defense scenario. Is it king? Well, you see the responses, to each his own!
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Old 08-28-2010, 06:07   #20
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Never understood using a rifle for home defense, as in "inside the home." The pistol makes the most practical sense for me, its what I carry and what I shoot the most with. Using one doesn't require two hands and its quick on target. I can also keep it on the nightstand within arms reach. The shotgun is the second choice, but the rifle doesn't even make it into consideration.
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