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Old 10-02-2010, 20:56   #1
M&P Shooter
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9mm not good enough for GT!

I have been doing a lot of 9mm research lately because I want to get a Glock 19 but don't know if I trust a 9mm for defense like a lot of others. Now here's what baffles me, the round is dumped on by a lot of people for being not a good fight stopper but then it's carried by the SAS, U.S. Military, and so many others I cant even remember. So why is the 9mm the focus of so much controversy but carried by so many Armed Forces since the Nazi Army?

I'm just curious since like I said I really was thinking of getting a Glock 19 tomorrow. I'm not asking 9mm compared to any other caliber, I'm just curious about the 9mm period
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Old 10-02-2010, 21:01   #2
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nothing at all wrong with 9mm with the right load and you during your part hitting the target
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Old 10-02-2010, 21:08   #3
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Get the G19...handy... loved by many...very potent especially with good defensive ammo. Used world wide...cheaper ammo than bigger calibers (another reason why many Militaries use them) Besides being...a very good "penetrating" round..Buy it dont look back.

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Old 10-02-2010, 21:10   #4
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I just posted a link in the Lounge section about 6 SAS-trained guys protecting Prince Harry because of the increased terror threat. Guess what they carry: Glock 19!

9 is fine, and even has advantages of it's own.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 10-02-2010 at 21:11..
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Old 10-02-2010, 21:17   #5
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The 9mm is a good round. A lot of the negativity with the 9mm IMO stems from tradition and the military's use of FMJ, JHP is a whole different story. The militaries of the world use it because it's cheap and one can carry more rounds/platform.

Keep a few things in mind, first no handgun round is really "effective" unless you start getting into the magnum categories. Then you're limited due to recoil issues and firepower.

Second, people only stop fighting for one of three reasons; they bleed out, freak out, or have a CNS hit, all the other reasons you can think of fall into one of these three catagories. Our goal is to stop the fight. People get wrapped up in the caliber debate. A .45 is only 2mm bigger than a 9mm. People will say it's a bigger hole. Well with the bigger hole debate, you're talking about reason 1- bleeding out. Big deal bleeding out will still take 10-30 seconds and coupled with adrenaline I can pull the trigger quite a few times in that time frame and it has been seen many times in real life. So bigger hole debate is worthless IMO.

I'd much rather choose more rounds on hand to engage multiple bad guys and make multiple hits on target than have 1 or 2 extra millimeters and that's talking with FMJ. Experience has shown us that it takes multiple hits on target to drop a bad guy regardless of caliber. I choose more rounds, I choose the 9mm.

You already know all of this stuff, I know that. Sometimes it just helps to have it put another way.

Last edited by NAC; 10-02-2010 at 21:35..
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Old 10-03-2010, 05:38   #6
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"A .45 is only 2mm bigger than a 9mm. People will say it's a bigger hole. Well with the bigger hole debate, you're talking about reason 1- bleeding out."

Every time I read this statement I think....so Since a .32 is just a little smaller than a 9mm so it must be almost as good.
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:53   #7
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I carry a 9mm about 95% of the time. With modern ammo it is a very effective cartridge. Some people just like to carry cannons to make themselves feel better. To each their own.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:21   #8
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Well,I love the 9mm, and the G19 platform. So much I own 2 Glock 19's and carry one most days. That or a G26. Buy one and sleep comfortably!
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:34   #9
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i figure for an instant stop the bullet must be built well enough and have enough energy and stay together to break ribs, not deflect and then penetrate to the spine with enough force to the CNS to incapacitate, then do a lot of damage on non CNS. yes, a 9mm can with the right bullet in the right placement but there is not the margin i believe for error in those two requirements that a .40, 357sig, or .45acp have. look how poorly the 9mm performed years ago before bullet and ballistic development. now perfomance through those two has made the 9mm better but has made the other rounds mentioned better also. if you believe quicker and more follow up shots provide all of that then the 9mm may be for you. i am more comfortable with a little more horse power.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:52   #10
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For SD purposes you want a combination of size, weight, penetration. If you look at good SD ammo you have the size, the weight and penetration needed with 9mm easily.

People who talk bigger holes are full of *****, most rifle rounds are 30 caliber so it's not just size. It's not just velocity either.

For me, a .38 spl +p load with a good hollow point is about where the SD needs are met and after mid .357 magnum is where excess starts. Basically, a good JHP with 250-600 # energy that YOU can shoot well and meets your other needs for platform etc...

.38spl, 9mm, .40S&W. .45ACP, .45GAP, .357 SIG, 10mm, 44 spl and .357 Mag all have choices in this range. For me, I carry 9mm in pistols and .38 spl/.357 mag in revos for SD needs against bipeds.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:52   #11
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As far as platform goes, I don't think you could have a better choice than a Glock 19. I own two. It's like the AK of handguns. Just the right size for CCW and yet still have good ballistic performance, as well as being rugged as hell. On another board the question was asked "If you could only have one handgun, what would it be?" A full 20% of responses said Glock 19; mind you this was from any choice of makers/models/calibers. It was the single most mentioned handgun, period.

As far as caliber goes? A number of years ago I would have poo-poo'd the 9mm. However, with the advances in bullet design we have these days (HST specifically for me), I think the gap between 9/40/45 has been narrowed significantly. At least enough for me to comfortably carry a Glock 19 for personal defense and not look back.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:08   #12
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Glock 19 + Speer Gold Dot 124gr +p = Perfect Combo. If I had to go somewhere dangerous. This is what I would I have, I own guns in all formats and calibers. But I am a 9MM junkie. I love this caliber and I own more guns in 9MM than other caliber.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:16   #13
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When purchasing my first Glock, I had this dilemma as well. After talking with a friend's husband who is a LEO and a SWAT, I found out that many of the police officers carry 9mm because they find that they are more accurate with it. Understand that these are personal preferences and that it is not a homogeneous preference.

Now, this is the way I perceive it as a non-LEO. With 9mm, I am able to purchase a case (1k rds) of NATO ammo for around $230-$250 shipped. I like to practice with these rounds because they are the least expensive 9mm rounds one can purchase with ballistics close to that of JHP ammunition you would be using when you are forced to protect yourself. This is a big deal because I must proficient in the tool I wield, especially when the tool is for defense of oneself and one's loved ones.

Overall, 9mm ammo will cost you less, much less overtime. Also, if you were arming yourself for home defense and you feel that you need more horse-power to stop a bad guy within the confines of your home, a shotgun with be a much better tool.

As for me, my first and only Glock is a G19 Gen4. Its not too small and its not too big or heavy. I haven't regretted purchasing it yet!
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:27   #14
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9mm works as advertised and I carry it often.

.40 also works as advertised and I carry it also.

No worry's mate, just get off the line and shoot the important stuff.

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Old 10-03-2010, 09:31   #15
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Pick up this months American Handgunner and read the "Ayoob Files"........CCW'er was using standard pressure Gold Dot 124 grain.......

bad guy was just as dead as if he had been hit by a bazooka!!!!!

edit: i carry a G26 with Ranger 127 +p+......best load IMO for 9mm

Last edited by glocknbruce; 10-03-2010 at 09:32..
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:32   #16
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I'm going to try to say this WITHOUT being provocative because I don't want to offend the memories of the deceased or come across as pompous and dismissive of the reality of the horror that is now sadly a piece of our history in the United States. Also, being as I already have a scratch against me for "rude behavior", I'm not actively seeking to take another hit. I hope that my sincerity is completely transparent and jumps off the screen at the reader like a train coming through a 3-D screen.

Everytime I have seen a similar thread around here before, and after a certain incident occurred, the same thing always crops up in my mind and I never post to it for fear of being seen as vulgar perhaps and disrespectful. But today, for whatever reason, I'm finally going to say it. Offending anyone is not my intention. I'm just stating the obvious (as terrible as it is) because it's happened already and nothing short of traveling back in H.G. Wells time machine can undo it.

Glock 19. Virginia Tech. I'm NOT going to expand on this. It's self evident I believe.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:32   #17
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Quote:
Now here's what baffles me, the round is dumped on by a lot of people for being not a good fight stopper but then it's carried by the SAS, U.S. Military, and so many others I cant even remember.
It's not just the military. Once you get outside of the U.S. you find the 9mm is pretty much at the top of the calibers for LE use and for civilian carry worldwide. The fascination with bigger calibers seems somewhat restricted to the U.S. I've never figured out if it is because our BGs are tougher or our shooters are worse.
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:05   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreis454 View Post
"A .45 is only 2mm bigger than a 9mm. People will say it's a bigger hole. Well with the bigger hole debate, you're talking about reason 1- bleeding out."

Every time I read this statement I think....so Since a .32 is just a little smaller than a 9mm so it must be almost as good.
NO, you're comparing two different things. You need a minimum velocity and energy level to be comparative. In the service calibers velocity and energy levels are roughly the equivalent for the respective duty calibers.If you pushed the .32 up in velocity then yes it would be just as effective as the 9mm. Look what happens when you push a .22 caliber round you get the velocities of the 5.56. Certainly more effective than a 9mm but wait it's smaller how can that be?
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:11   #19
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Why do SAS and SEAL's carry it? Well, they tend to hit what they are shooting at....
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:16   #20
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Originally Posted by 1canvas View Post
i figure for an instant stop the bullet must be built well enough and have enough energy and stay together to break ribs, not deflect and then penetrate to the spine with enough force to the CNS to incapacitate, then do a lot of damage on non CNS. yes, a 9mm can with the right bullet in the right placement but there is not the margin i believe for error in those two requirements that a .40, 357sig, or .45acp have. look how poorly the 9mm performed years ago before bullet and ballistic development. now perfomance through those two has made the 9mm better but has made the other rounds mentioned better also. if you believe quicker and more follow up shots provide all of that then the 9mm may be for you. i am more comfortable with a little more horse power.
Well said.
Quote:
but then it's carried by the SAS, U.S. Military, and so many others I cant even remember. So why is the 9mm the focus of so much controversy but carried by so many Armed Forces since the Nazi Army?
It's carried by so many because it is issued to them. In Europian circles, a 380 is common, so a 9mm is an upgrade in power. Like Ican, I look at a pistol as a minimal weapon, so why limit yourself to the smallest caliber, especially if you can shoot bigger. While shot placement is king, no one is going to gaurantee a CNS shot in a moving gunfight, at night with the bullets flying. If I only land a single hit, I want the biggest hole possible, even if it is a peripheral hit. Nope, not FOS, anyone that shoots living things knows bigger holes mean fast bleed out.
Here in Kalif, we get 10rds. I only look to a 9mm in a compact or subcompact as I can get 10 40s in a G23 or 10 45 in a XDcomp. With the 9mm, I feel bullet/ammo selection is more important. JMO, 9 is fine, if that is what you shoot best. There may be only a small marginal increase in effectiveness w/ the larger calibers, but as long as you can shoot them, why not take the increase?
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