357 Sig Over Penetration?

Police Marksman · 10-18-2010, 16:52

One of our local LEOs was executing a search warrant, and was forced to shoot a bad guy. Our LEO was armed with a 357 Sig with 125 grain Speer Gold Dot ammo.

The bad guy took six rounds in the chest before stopping. All six rounds penetrated the bad guy, went through a couple of walls and exited the house almost striking an officer outside. I don't believe any of the rounds expanded.

Something you might want to consider if you chose the 357 Sig for self defense.

Clem Eastwood · 10-18-2010, 17:02

Interesting.

cowboy1964 · 10-18-2010, 17:45

The same will happen to some degree with any of the major calibers, just maybe worse with .357 Sig because of the velocity (OTOH it's light so...). A non-expanded JHP is just like a FMJ and will exceed 24" in gel.

I wonder what the guy was wearing that would have clogged 6 JHPs in a row. Is there any news story on this online?

Glockbuster · 10-18-2010, 17:49

Do you know what clothing the bad guy was wearing ?

what is the LE agency´s veredict as to the round´s failure ?

do you have any links or evidence to support your posting ?

frank_drebin · 10-18-2010, 18:16

I was in a now closed (ATF shut them down) local gun shop on the Mcdonough Square last year looking at holsters for my G33. The elderly man that runs the shop asked me what I carried and I told him it was a Glock 33. He said "If you don't mind me giving you a little advice, get a 40S&W barrel for it and lose the 357sig barrel". At first I took it as a basic "my caliber is better than your caliber" comment and just kind of ignored it. He then proceeded to tell me that he shot someone in the store last year with a Glock 32 in 357 sig with 125gr Gold Dots. That got my attention real quick. He said that the round went in the man's chest on the right and exited his lower back without any expansion. The man that was shot survived and he stated that it was a very close in shot (around 7 feet). After I left the shop I called an LEO friend in the city and asked him about the incident. He recounted the story (which is a whole different post for sometime) and said the same thing in regards to the 357 sig. He said that the 125gr Gold Dot 357 sig round had a history of that in their experience and that several cases over the years had shown "full through and through penetration" when the 357sig round encountered no bone. The man that was shot was leaning over at an angle when struck (and was an innocent store employee that spooked the older man).

Police Marksman · 10-18-2010, 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glockbuster

Do you know what clothing the bad guy was wearing ?

what is the LE agency´s veredict as to the round´s failure ?

do you have any links or evidence to support your posting ?

It occurred during the summer in Texas, so I assume the suspect was wearing only a light shirt. I was told by my source that the department is considering going to the 45 ACP, although I would not say the round was a complete failure. The bad guy was stopped very rapidly before he could fire again. I don't have any links the shooting is still under investigation so I can't get to detailed, sorry.

***Jeff82*** · 10-18-2010, 18:48

BUT, but what about the ballistic pressure wave??!!

hahaha

Glockbuster · 10-18-2010, 18:48

Wow, it would be really important to get all the details and facts on this if possible. I don't see how a different but similar bullet like a 9 mm going 200 fps slower would have made a difference though. And then there is the issue of weight where supposedly the heavier bullets penetrate more.

Go figure.

cowboy1964 · 10-18-2010, 19:06

To the OP, you should post this story in the GATE Self-Defense forum. I'd be interested in Ayoob's opinion.

Snowman92D · 10-18-2010, 19:17

Impossible. Calibrated gell-o testing shows the .357 Sig doesn't perform any different than the 9mm 147-grain subsonic with regard to expansion and penetration.

Merkavaboy · 10-18-2010, 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman92D

Impossible. Calibrated gell-o testing shows the .357 Sig doesn't perform any different than the 9mm 147-grain subsonic with regard to expansion and penetration.

And there's a lot of documented history about just how successful the 147JHP subsonics worked in the real world, right Snowman?

I guess BGs haven't learned how to act like blocks of jello yet.

Haymarket · 10-18-2010, 20:11

If none of those rounds expanded, i would think it is a Gold Dot design problem, not a 357 sig problem.

NAC · 10-18-2010, 20:24

Nothing personal Marksman but without the facts of the case your statement can't be substantiated and is in the same class as "I knew a guy that said". I can give a case right now with attached PowerPoint of a BG shot 17 times at a distance of 20 feet. 15 of those hits were 180gr .40 and 2 were 5.56 75gr. The three officers on scene had to fight with the guy to get cuffs on him. He later died.

Adrenaline and the survival instinct trump all small arm calibers short of 25mm.

Police Marksman · 10-18-2010, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haymarket

If none of those rounds expanded, i would think it is a Gold Dot design problem, not a 357 sig problem.

Haymarket
Your right, its just the Speer Gold dot is probably the most popular law enforcement round in that caliber. I am just suggesting you might consider another round if carrying the 357 Sig.

Glockbuster · 10-18-2010, 21:37

I might consider it but I wont do it. For one case that is for now hearsay there are many others that work just fine. We have to make decisions based on a more ample point of view.

Police Marksman · 10-18-2010, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by NAC

Nothing personal Marksman but without the facts of the case your statement can't be substantiated and is in the same class as "I knew a guy that said". I can give a case right now with attached PowerPoint of a BG shot 17 times at a distance of 20 feet. 15 of those hits were 180gr .40 and 2 were 5.56 75gr. The three officers on scene had to fight with the guy to get cuffs on him. He later died.

Adrenaline and the survival instinct trump all small arm calibers short of 25mm.

NAC
I understand where you are coming from. There are no links that talk about the effects of the officers 357 Sig, or even how many times the bad guy was shot or what with.

At this time there is possibility of a pending law suit, and I cannot get too detailed. I did get this information from a investigator from the department, so I believe the information to be very reliable.

cowboy1964 · 10-18-2010, 21:45

Perhaps a non-bonded would be the best choice with .357 Sig. Ranger or HST. Is Golden Saber available in .357 Sig? Or how about the Federal EFMJ. Pretty much guaranteed expansion on that from what I can tell.

fredj338 · 10-19-2010, 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Police Marksman

One of our local LEOs was executing a search warrant, and was forced to shoot a bad guy. Our LEO was armed with a 357 Sig with 125 grain Speer Gold Dot ammo.

The bad guy took six rounds in the chest before stopping. All six rounds penetrated the bad guy, went through a couple of walls and exited the house almost striking an officer outside. I don't believe any of the rounds expanded.

Something you might want to consider if you chose the 357 Sig for self defense.

I would say antecdotal evidence. Many depts have had many shootings w/ spectacular results. You are probably just as likely to overpenetrate w/ some of the 9mm or 40 heavies.

Quote:

Perhaps a non-bonded would be the best choice with .357 Sig. Ranger or HST. Is Golden Saber available in .357 Sig? Or how about the Federal EFMJ. Pretty much guaranteed expansion on that from what I can tell.

Other rounds are available: RangerT & RemGSB are both good rounds. At least in my backyard denim wetpack test, they all perform about the same. My LEO buddy, that got me into the 357sig, has shot dozens of deer w/ his duty GoldDot load & the few shootings they have had, they had no such extreme issues of non expansion. Really, what JHP doesn't have at least one horror story of a multiple round, non stop failure?

Trigger Finger · 10-19-2010, 01:02

Head shot!!!

If you have to shoot someone more than twice then go for the head. I know, easier said than done, that's why you practice.

ABNAK · 10-19-2010, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haymarket

If none of those rounds expanded, i would think it is a Gold Dot design problem, not a 357 sig problem.

This.

Cor Bon 125gr Sierra JHP would quite likely NOT overpenetrate. Chrono'd some myself at around 1375fps average from a Glock 32. It would likely fragment. Now, some here will say that is not good but it is the closest simulation of the effects of the vaunted 125gr .357 Magnum round out there. Just sayin'......

Haymarket · 10-19-2010, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Police Marksman

Haymarket
Your right, its just the Speer Gold dot is probably the most popular law enforcement round in that caliber. I am just suggesting you might consider another round if carrying the 357 Sig.

...I carry Gold Dots and thought they had a great reputation in .357, so this was a little surprising if none of the 6 expanded. I thought GDs were what the VA state troopers and city of Richmond guys carried and have had good results.

What .357 round do the fed agencies (Air Marshalls, Secret Service) carry?

cowboy1964 · 10-19-2010, 12:09

I never understood the choice of .357 Sigs for air marshalls. I know it's a myth that a bullet sized hole with bring down an airliner but still, the dangers of overpenetration in an airplane go beyond that (other people in close proximity, damage to flight systems, etc).

Clem Eastwood · 10-19-2010, 12:14

I wonder if there could have been a bad lot of gold dot bullets?

BadAndy · 10-19-2010, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

I never understood the choice of .357 Sigs for air marshalls. I know it's a myth that a bullet sized hole with bring down an airliner but still, the dangers of overpenetration in an airplane go beyond that (other people in close proximity, damage to flight systems, etc).

What if they have to shoot through a person in a seat to get to the bad guy behind them that's trying to blow up the plane?

novaDAK · 10-19-2010, 16:49

I'd be interested in which version of the .357sig gold dot it was.

In the LE 50rd boxes there are two different bullet designs with two different velocities. The original one has 6 "petals" in the nose and moves at 1375fps. The reduced penetration load has 5 petals in the nose and is rated at 1350fps. The "reduced penetration" load is the only one offered in the 20rd boxes for the commercial market.

Odds are, these examples of overpenetration were likely the original load. Speer must have had complaints or a reason to develop the so-called reduced penetration version....

interesting.